Welsh Affairs Committee

Oral evidence: City Deals and Growth Deals in Wales, HC 2095

Monday 17 June 2019, Bangor

Ordered by the House of Commons to be published on 17 June 2019.

Watch the meeting

Members present: David T. C. Davies (Chair); Guto Bebb; Jonathan Edwards; Ben Lake.

Questions 1-31

Witnesses

I: Iwan Trefor Jones, Lead Director, North Wales Growth Bid, Ashley Rogers, Chair, North Wales Mersey Dee Business Council, and Councillor Dyfrig Siencyn, Chair, North Wales Economic Ambition Board.

Examination of witnesses

Witnesses: Iwan Trefor Jones, Ashley Rogers and Councillor Dyfrig Siencyn.

Chair: Prynhawn da. There are translation facilities for anyone who wants them, on channel 1.

Croeso pawb. Diolch i’r Cynghorydd Siencyn, Mr Jones a Mr Rogers, am ddod yma heddiw. Rydyn ni eisiau ffeindio mas mwy am y growth deals a gofyn ychydig o gwestiynau. Yn amlwg, os oes gennych chi wybodaeth rydych chi eisiau rhannu gyda ni, croeso i chi wneud hynny. Rydyn ni eisiau mynd yn ôl gyda chymaint o wybodaeth ag sy’n bosibl. Diolch yn fawr iawn am ddod. Ga i ofyn i Guto Bebb ddechrau? Mae e’n dod o’r gogledd.

(Translation) Welcome everybody. Thank you Councillor Siencyn, Mr Jones and Mr Rogers for being with us this afternoon. We want to find out more about the growth deals and to ask you a few questions. Clearly, if you have any information you would like to share with us, you are more than welcome to do so. We want to take back as much information as possible, so thank you very much for attending. Could I ask Guto Bebb to begin, please? He is from north Wales.

Q1                Guto Bebb: Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am roi eich amser y prynhawn yma. Dw i’n gobeithio bod Ashley yn clywed popeth.

Ar gyfer y cwestiwn cyntaf sydd gen i, dw i am fynd yn ôl at y cyhoeddiad o gyllid ar gyfer y cynllun twf. Mi gyhoeddwyd £120 miliwn gan y Canghellor. Yn naturiol, roedd yna groeso i’r ffaith bod cyhoeddiad wedi cael ei wneud. Ond mae’n deg i ddweud bod ambell un yn y gogledd wedi mynegi siom a phryder bod y swm yn llai na’r hyn oedd wedi cael ei ddisgwyl. Er enghraifft, roedd cadeirydd siambr fusnes Glannau Dyfrdwy wedi datgan y byddai yna ddicter yn y gogledd oherwydd bod y swm a gafodd ei gyhoeddi’n llai na’r disgwyl. Felly’r cwestiwn sydd gen i, yn syml iawn, i chi fel partneriaid ydy i ba raddau oedd y £120 miliwn yn newyddion da ac i ba raddau oedd y sylwadau bod yna ymdeimlad o siom yn adlewyrchu teimladau rhai o’r partneriaid?

(Translation) Thank you very much for giving of your time to be here with us this afternoon. We hope that Ashley can hear everything.

My first question goes back to the announcement of funding for the growth deal. Naturally, the £120 million announced by the Chancellor was welcomed, but it is fair to say that some people in north Wales expressed disappointment and concern that the sum was lower than had been anticipated. For example, the chair of Deeside chamber of commerce said that there would be anger in north Wales because the sum announced was lower than expected. So my question to you as partners is, very simply: to what extent was the £120 million good news and to what extent were the comments that there was a feeling of disappointment a reflection of the feelings of some of the partners?

Councillor Siencyn: Fe wna i ddechrau ac fe geith fy nghyfeillion ymuno fel bo angen os ydw i’n methu. Ga i ddiolch i chi am y gwahoddiad yma heddiw? Mae o hyd yn bleser i rannu’n profiadau ni ac fe drïwn ni fod mor onest â phosibl gyda chi.

I raddau, mae elfen bersonol i’m hymateb. Mi hoffwn i egluro ychydig am fy nghefndir i ar hyn o bryd. Dw i newydd gael fy mhenodi’n gadeirydd ond roeddwn i’n is-gadeirydd am y ddwy flynedd cynt. Felly dw i’n gymharol newydd i gyfrifoldebau cadeirydd. Mae bod yn is-gadeirydd yn swydd rwydd iawn a dweud y gwir. Rydych chi’n gallu marchogaeth ar gefn y cadeirydd druan. Ond fe fyddwn i’n dweud bod yna elfen o siom yn y £120. Ond wrth gwrs, rydyn ni’n hynod o falch o gael y cyhoeddiad oedd yn cadarnhau’r ymrwymiad yna gan y Llywodraeth. Ar yr ochr wleidyddol, roedden ni wedi bod yn siarad gydag Is-Weinidog yn Swyddfa Cymru–sef Mims Davies ar y pryd.

(Translation) I will begin and my colleagues can join in as need be, if I fail in any way. Can I thank you for the invitation here today? It is always a pleasure to share our experiences and we will try to be as open as possible.

To some extent, my response has a personal element to it. To give you a bit of my current background, I have just been appointed chair of the board but I was vice-chair for two years before that, so I am relatively new to the responsibilities of the chair. Being a vice-chair is a much easier job, to be honest; you can ride on the back of the poor chair. There is an element of disappointment about the £120 million announcement but, of course, we were very pleased to have that announcement, which confirmed the commitment made by the Government. On the political side of things, we had been speaking to the then Under-Secretary in the Wales Office, Mims Davies.

Q2                Chair: Ac wedyn daeth newid?

(Translation) And then there was a change?

Councillor Siencyn: Wel, mae hwnna yn elfen arall fyddwn i’n dweud nad oedd yn llawer o help i ni symud ymlaen. Dw i’n meddwl ein bod ni ar y pumed gweinidog ar hyn o bryd. Ond roedd ein trafodaethau ni bryd hynny gyda hi yn ein harwain ni i feddwl ein bod ni’n mynd i fod yn llwyddiannus gyda’r cyfan roedden ni’n gofyn amdano sef £170 miliwn gan Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol a £170 miliwn gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Doedd dim unrhyw fath o arwydd o unrhyw beth llai.

Mae’n debyg bod rhywun yn ymwybodol hwyrach ein bod ni’n gofyn am rywbeth oedd yn anghyraeddadwy. Ond fy hun, roeddwn i’n teimlo bod £120 miliwn yn siom. Fel cyn arwerthwr, mi fyddwn i wedi fy mhlesio gyda £150 miliwn. Pe bawn i wedi eistedd yn yr ystafell gyda’r Gweinidog a dweud fy mod i eisiau £170 miliwn a’i fod o eisiau rhoi £120 miliwn, fe fyddwn i wedi dweud beth am hollti’r peth yn y canol.

Wrth gwrs, oblygiadau hynny ydy bod gennym ni lai o arian i wario ar ein prosiectau. Rydyn ni wedi datblygu ein prosiectau ni dros gyfnod hir a dweud y gwir. Yn sicr, mae’n mynd yn ôl yn bellach na dwy flynedd. Rydyn ni’n eithaf hyderus bod y prosiectau hynny’n drawsnewidiol ac yn ffitio anghenion y gogledd yn benodol. Felly rydyn ni’n bwrw ymlaen gyda’r arian sydd wedi cael ei gynnig i ni.

Rydyn ni yn gofyn am ragor o arian. Rydyn ni wedi gofyn am £20 miliwn yr un gan y ddwy Lywodraeth, yn wyneb y cyhoeddiad ar Wylfa yn un peth. Dw i’n credu bod gennym ni achos da dros gael ychwanegiad. Beth mae’n ei olygu wrth gwrs ydy ein bod ni’n gorfod torri’n ôl ar ein prosiectau ni, scalio lawr, peidio gwneud rhai pethau. Ond rydyn ni’n barod i gynllunio ar ba bynnag ffigur sydd gennym ni.

Un peth yn wleidyddol fyddwn i’n ei ddweud: fel un o gefndir busnes, pan ddywedwyd wrthyf y byddem ni’n cymryd rhan mewn trafodaethau fel cynllun twf, roeddwn i’n disgwyl bod yna ryw fath o drefn benodol. Mae’n rhaid cyfaddef fy mod i’n eithaf rhwystredig bod y cyfarfodydd gwleidyddol rydyn ni wedi eu cael gyda Gweinidogion dipyn bach yn–i ddefnyddio gair fy mab–random a ddim yn strwythuredig. Does dim rhaglen, dim agenda. Mi ofynnais i un Gweinidog, “Cyn i ni gyfarfod y tro nesaf, beth am i ni gael rhaglen o’n cyfarfodydd wedi eu dyddiaduro i ni gael bod yn glir pryd ydyn ni’n trafod efo chi. Gadewch i ni gael nodiadau gweithredu o’r cyfarfod cynt, os mynnwch chi. Does dim eisiau cofnodion manwl ond beth yw’r pwyntiau gweithredu? Gewch chi adrodd yn ôl ar hynny a gweld ble mae’r problemau rydyn ni angen eu datrys.” Ond doedd hynny ddim yn digwydd. Hwyrach fy mod i, yn fy niniweidrwydd, ddim yn deall trefn Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol. Mae pawb yn dweud wrthyf mai fel yna mae hi’n gweithio mae’n debyg.

Dw i’n meddwl bod hynna’n rhyw fath o ateb i’r cwestiwn. Fyddwn i ddim yn dweud bod yna ddicter. Siom, yn sicr, ond dim dicter.

(Translation) Well, that’s another element that was not terribly helpful to us in moving forward. I think we are on the fifth Minister at present, but the deliberations and negotiations we had at the time with her led us to believe that we were going to be successful with the entire amount we were asking for, which was £170 million from the UK Government and £170 million from the Welsh Government. There was no indication of anything less than that.

Perhaps there was an awareness that we were asking for something that was not attainable, but I myself think that the £120 million was disappointing. As a former auctioneer, I would have been delighted with £150 million. If I had sat down in the room with the Minister and said that I wanted £170 million and he offered £120 million, I would have suggested splitting it down the middle.

Of course, the implications are that we have less money to spend on our projects. We have developed our projects over a very long time—certainly going back more than two years. We are quite confident that those projects are transformational and that they fit the needs of north Wales specifically, so we are pushing ahead with the funding that has been offered.

We are asking for more money. We have asked for an extra £20 million from each of the two Governments, in view of the announcement on Wylfa for one thing. I think we have a good case for an additional sum. What it means, of course, is that we have to cut back on our projects—we have to scale them down and not do some things—but we are willing to plan with whatever figure we have.

One thing I would say perhaps politically, as someone from a business background, is that when I was told I would take part in negotiations on the growth deal, I expected there to be some kind of specific system or order, and I must admit that I am quite frustrated that the political meetings we have had with the Ministers have been a little—to use my son’s word—“random” and not particularly structured. There is no particular programme or agenda. I asked one Minister, “Before we meet next time, what about having a programme of our meetings diarised so that we are clear when we are going to be discussing this with you? Let us have some action points from the previous meeting, if you like. We don’t want detailed minutes, but what are the action points? You can report back on that, and we can then see where the problems are that we need to resolve.” But that really did not happen. Perhaps, in my naivety, I did not understand the way in which the UK Government does things. Everybody tells me that that is how it works, apparently.

Perhaps that gives you some kind of response to your question. I would not say that there is anger—disappointment, yes, but not anger.

Q3                Guto Bebb: Digon teg. Dw i ddim eisiau neidio ymlaen i gwestiynau diweddarach sydd gennym ni. Ond i gadarnhau, yr hyn rydych chi’n ei ddweud ydy na chafwyd unrhyw rybudd ymlaen llaw gan Weinidogion y byddai yna swm sylweddol llai yn cael ei gynnig na’r hyn roeddech chi wedi cynnig amdano?

(Translation) That is fair enough. I do not want to jump ahead to our later questions but, just to confirm, you are saying that no forewarning was given by Ministers that a significantly lower sum of money would be offered than you had bid for?

Councillor Siencyn: Na, dim o gwbl. O’r trafodaethau cadarnhaol a gafwyd, doedd dim awgrym y byddem ni’n cael llai. Yn wir, o ganlyniad i hynny, roedd rhywun yn casglu ein bod ni’n mynd i gael yr hyn roedden ni’n gofyn amdano ond efallai mai’n diniweidrwydd ni oedd hynny.

(Translation) Not at all. From the very positive negotiations that we had, there was no suggestion that we would receive less. Indeed, as a result of that, we came to the conclusion that we would have what we asked for—but perhaps that was our naivety.

Ashley Rogers: I agree with Dyfrig that there was certainly surprise. It is a deal—it is a negotiation—so we expected to go in with a particular figure and that maybe it would be reduced and we would meet somewhere in the middle. That was not the case, so that was disappointing.

I also think that the nature of the figure that you agree is an “in principle” agreement—it is heads of terms. If you do not have business cases that stack up and reach that total figure, you do not get the money, so I think we were a little confused as to what there was to lose by agreeing on a slightly higher figure on the basis that you still needed to do all the paperwork and have all your i’s dotted and your t’s crossed for the business cases. It was not a cheque; it was an agreement in principle. That was a little disappointing, but you work with what you have.

Iwan Trefor Jones: Yn sydyn iawn, beth fyddwn i’n ei ddweud ydy ein bod ni’n edrych ar y growth deal fel man cychwyn ar gyfer cyflawni’r weledigaeth sydd gennym ni ar gyfer gogledd Cymru.

Un neu o ddau o bwyntiau ychwanegol. Yn gyntaf, dydyn ni ddim cweit wedi derbyn y rationale dros y £120 miliwn yna. Fe wnaethon ni gais am £170 miliwn gan y ddwy Lywodraeth. Daeth y ffigwr o £120 miliwn allan o nunlle a dweud y gwir. Anodd oedd deall beth oedd y cyfiawnhad a’r rationale y tu ôl i’r £120 miliwn yna. Wedi dweud hynny, yn y trafodaethau rydyn ni wedi eu cael gyda’r ddwy Lywodraeth, rydyn ni wedi rhoi cais i mewn am £140 miliwn o’r ddwy Lywodraeth, sy’n dod â ni i £280 miliwn. Mae’n achosion busnes ni ar gyfer yr 14 prosiect sydd gennym ni yn seiliedig ar £280 miliwn.

Rydyn ni wedi cytuno efo’r gweision sifil ein bod ni’n cyflwyno’r achos dros y £40 miliwn ychwanegol ac maen nhw wedi dweud bod y drws ar agor er mwyn derbyn ystyriaeth o hynny. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru eisoes wedi cadarnhau y bydden nhw’n rhoi £20 miliwn i mewn os ydy Llywodraeth Prydain yn rhoi’r £20 miliwn yna yn ei le. Mae’r trafodaethau yna’n parhau. Rydyn ni wedi datblygu’r 14 prosiect yn seiliedig ar gyllideb o £280 miliwn gan obeithio y byddan nhw’n gweld y ffordd yn glir i dderbyn yr achos rydyn ni’n ei gyflwyno ar eu cyfer nhw ar hyn o bryd.

(Translation) Just quickly, what I would say is that we view the growth deal as a starting point for achieving the vision that we have for north Wales.

I have one or two other points to add. First, we have not quite heard the rationale for the £120 million. As you know, we requested £170 million from both Governments, but the figure of £120 million came from nowhere, really, and it was difficult to understand what the justification and rationale for it was. Having said that, in the discussions that we have had with the two Governments, we have requested £140 million from each Government, which brings us to £280 million. Our business cases for the 14 projects that we have are based on £280 million.

We have agreed with the civil servants to put the case for the additional £40 million. They have said that the door is open to taking that into consideration, and the Welsh Government have already confirmed that they would provide £20 million if the UK Government put £20 million in. Those deliberations are ongoing, but we have developed the 14 projects based on a budget of £280 million, in the hope that they will see their way clear to accepting the business case that we are now putting forward.

Q4                Guto Bebb: Dw i ddim eisiau mynd yn ôl dros hen hanes ond gan fod y cwestiwn cyntaf yn gofyn sut daethpwyd i’r casgliad mai £120 miliwn oeddech chi’n ei dderbyn, doedd dim eglurhad ymlaen llaw a’r hyn rydych chi hefyd yn ei ddweud ydy nad oedd eglurhad wedi bod yn dilyn y cyhoeddiad chwaith.

(Translation) I do not want to go back over old ground, but my first question was about how the conclusion on the £120 million was reached. There was no clarification in advance, and what you are telling me is that there was no clarification subsequent to the announcement either.

Councillor Siencyn: Dim, o gwbl. Mewn byd delfrydol, mi fyddai wedi bod yn beth da cael y ddeialog yna ynglŷn â’r penderfyniad. Oedd yna resymau neu oedd yna rywbeth ynglŷn â’n gweithrediadau ni hwyrach oedd yn peri i’r penderfyniad fod yn llawer iawn llai nag oedden ni’n ei ofyn? Mi fyddai wedi bod yn adborth defnyddiol a gwerthfawr iawn i ni. Ond na, dim.

(Translation) No, none whatsoever. In an ideal world, it would have been good to have that dialogue about the decision. Were there reasons—something in our actions, perhaps—that caused the decision to be far lower than we were asking for? It would have been useful and valuable feedback for us, but no, there was none.

Q5                Ben Lake: Diolch i chi am ddod atom ni’r prynhawn yma. I ddilyn ar y mater yma o’r arian ychwanegol neu ofyn am £20 miliwn gan y ddwy Lywodraeth, roeddech chi’n sôn nad oedd awgrym gyda’r bid gwreiddiol eich bod chi’n mynd i dderbyn llai na’r hyn roeddech chi’n gofyn amdano. I ddechrau, alla i ofyn, o ran y trafodaethau nawr gyda’r ddwy Lywodraeth, ydych chi’n gweld bod y tôn wedi newid? Oes unrhyw wybodaeth fwy manwl? Ydyn nhw’n gofyn mwy o gwestiynau sydd yn neud i chi deimlo’n fwy hyderus efallai y byddan nhw un ai yn cytuno i’r £20 miliwn, neu £40 miliwn i gyd, ychwanegol neu beidio?

(Translation) Thank you for coming this afternoon. On the additional £20 million from each Government, you talked about there being no real suggestion in the original bid that you would receive less than what you were asking for. In the ongoing discussions with both Governments, do you feel that the tone has changed? Is there any more detailed information? Are they asking more questions that perhaps make you feel more confident that they either will agree to the additional £40 million—£20 million each—or not?

Iwan Trefor Jones: Fydden i’n dweud bod y tôn wedi bod yn reit bositif yn ddiweddar iawn. Rydyn ni’n amlwg yn cyflwyno’r cais am £20 miliwn o Lywodraeth Prydain ar gefn yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd efo rhewi cynllun Wylfa Newydd. Yr arweiniad rydyn ni wedi ei gael ydy bod y drws ar agor er mwyn cyflwyno’r achos yna. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru eisoes wedi nodi a chadarnhau y bydden nhw’n cyfrannu £20 miliwn ychwanegol i’r gogledd os ydy Llywodraeth Prydain yn penderfynu gwneud hynny. Felly mae’r trafodaethau wedi bod yn bositif yn hynny o beth.

Rydyn ni wedi cyflwyno’r achos i gael yr £20 miliwn ychwanegol gan Lywodraeth Prydain. Mae hwnna’n allweddol i ni o ran ariannu rhai o’r prosiectau sydd gennym ni fel y prosiect eiddo, y prosiectau’n ymwneud ag ynni carbon isel, y prosiectau’n ymwneud â’r elfen ddigidol. Rydyn ni angen yr adnodd ychwanegol yna er mwyn symud y portffolio yn ei flaen.

Mae o’n heriol weithiau achos rydyn ni’n delio gyda dwy Lywodraeth. Rydyn ni eisiau’r undod yna rhwng Llywodraeth Prydain–Swyddfa Cymru–a Llywodraeth Cymru i sicrhau eu bod nhw’n siarad efo un llais. Mae hwnna weithiau’n anodd ac yn heriol. Mae’r growth deal yng Nghymru yn amlwg yn gyd-ariannu rhwng Llywodraeth Prydain a Llywodraeth Cymru. Maen nhw’n cyfrannu’r arian cyfatebol i’r cynllun. Mae’n rhaid i’r trafodaethau a’r cytundeb ddigwydd rhwng y ddwy Lywodraeth. Dw i’m yn gwybod faint o drafodaethau fel yna sy’n digwydd ond wrth gwrs mae o’n dipyn o sialens i sicrhau bod y cyd-ariannu yna’n digwydd ar lefel wleidyddol.

(Translation) The tone has been positive recently. Clearly, we are putting forward the case for £20 million from the UK Government on the back of the freezing of the Wylfa Newydd scheme. The guidance we have been given is that the door is open to put that case. The Welsh Government have already identified and confirmed that they would contribute an additional £20 million to north Wales if the UK Government decide to do so. The discussions have been positive in that regard.

We have put the case forward for receiving that extra £20 million from the UK Government. That is vital to us, in terms of funding some of our projects, such as the property project, the project relating to low carbon energy, and the project relating to the digital element. We need that additional resource to move that portfolio forward.

It is challenging sometimes, because you are dealing with two Governments, and you want that unity between the UK Government—the Wales Office—and the Welsh Government to ensure that they speak with one voice. Sometimes that is difficult and challenging. The growth deal in Wales is, clearly, jointly funded by the UK Government and the Welsh Government. They contribute matched amounts of funding to the deal, so those discussions and that agreement has to happen between the two Governments. I do not know how many negotiations of that nature happen, but it is quite a challenge to make sure that that joint funding happens at a political level.

Q6                Ben Lake: O ran y cynlluniau gwahanol rydych chi’n bwriadu eu hariannu gyda’r £40 miliwn ychwanegol, os byddai’r Llywodraeth yn gwrthod y cais, dw i’n credu ei bod hi’n bwysig i ni gael dealltwriaeth a chyd-destun o beth fyddai hynny’n ei olygu ar gyfer yr hyn sydd ar waith ar hyn o bryd. Allech chi roi syniad neu flas i ni o beth fyddai’n ei olygu pe bai nhw ddim yn cytuno i’r cais?

(Translation) In terms of the different schemes that you now intend to fund with the extra £40 million, it is very important for us to have an understanding and context of what it would mean for what is currently afoot if the Government refused that request. Could you give us a flavour of what it would mean if they did not agree to that request?

Iwan Trefor Jones: O ran y cynllun gwreiddiol, yr achos wnaethon ni gyflwyno tua chwe mis yn ôl, mae gennym ni bortffolio o 14 o brosiectau sy’n drawsnewidiol ar draws y gogledd. Mae rhai yn ymateb i’r angen i ddatblygu’r sector ynni carbon isel, rhai’n ymateb i ddatblygu’r sector gweithgynhyrchu arbenigol, rhai yn alluogwyr pwysig ar gyfer y gogledd o ran isadeiledd.

Ond o ran y ddau brosiect lle rydyn ni wedi gofyn am arian ychwanegol, y cyntaf ydy’r prosiect sy’n ymwneud ag eiddo a safleoedd. Rydyn ni eisiau cynyddu’r gyllideb o £51 miliwn i £71 miliwn oherwydd ein bod ni’n teimlo bod hwnna’n brosiect pwysig. Mae’r sector breifat yn dweud wrthym ni dro ar ôl tro bod yn rhaid i ni sicrhau cyflenwad o diroedd o safon ar gyfer cyflogaeth ar draws y gogledd. Mae gennym ni lot o safleoedd rydyn ni’n eu galw’n “stalled sites”, sydd ddim yn cael eu datblygu oherwydd bod y gost o’u datblygu nhw’n uwch na’u gwerth masnachol nhw. Felly dydy’r sector breifat ddim yn cyffwrdd y safleoedd hynny. Mae’n allweddol bod gennym ni gyllideb ddigonol ar gyfer datblygu cyflenwad o safleoedd addas ar gyfer cyflogaeth ar draws y gogledd. Felly rydyn ni’n chwyddo’r gronfa yna o £51 miliwn i £71 miliwn.

Y prosiect arall rydyn ni’n gofyn am adnoddau ychwanegol ar ei gyfer ydy’r prosiect rydyn ni’n ei alw’n brosiect “smart local energy”. Mae hwnna’n ymwneud efo cefnogi prosiectau sy’n hyrwyddo ynni adnewyddol ac ynni carbon isel ar draws y gogledd a gwella cyswllt grid rhwng y prosiectau yma gyda’r grid cenedlaethol. Ar hyn o bryd, mae gennym ni gyllideb o £10 miliwn ar gyfer y gronfa yna a dydyn ni ddim yn teimlo bod hynny’n ddigonol. Rydyn ni eisiau chwyddo’r gronfa yna o £10 miliwn i £30 miliwn. Fyddai hynny’n ein galluogi ni i wneud gwahaniaeth sylweddol a chreu gwell amodau i brosiectau ynni carbon isel, ynni adnewyddol allu cyrraedd y grid cenedlaethol er mwyn, yn amlwg, bod yn fwy hyfyw.

(Translation) The original plan—the case that we submitted about six months ago—had a portfolio of 14 transformational projects across north Wales. Some respond to this need to develop the low carbon energy sector, some to developing specialist manufacturing, and some are important enablers for north Wales, in terms of infrastructure.

However, we have asked for additional funding for two projects. The first is the project relating to sites and property. We want to increase the budget from £51 million to £71 million, because we think that is a very important project. The private sector tells us time and again that we need to make sure that there is a supply of good quality land for employment across north Wales. We have lots of stalled sites that are not developed because the cost of developing them is higher than their commercial value. The private sector does not touch those sites. It is really important that we have an adequate budget for developing a supply of sites that are appropriate for employment across north Wales. We are therefore expanding that budget from £51 million to £71 million.

The other project for which we are asking for an additional resource is what we call the smart local energy project, which relates to supporting projects that promote renewable, low carbon energy across north Wales and improve the grid connection between those projects and the national grid. At the moment we have a budget of £10 million for that. We do not feel that that is adequate, so we want to extend that from £10 million to £30 million, which would enable us to make a significant difference and create better conditions for low carbon energy and renewable energy projects to be able to reach the national grid, which would clearly make them more viable.

Q7                Ben Lake: I sicrhau fy mod i wedi eich deall chi’n iawn, mi fyddai’r £40 miliwn ychwanegol yma’n mynd tuag at rywbeth penodol yn hytrach na rhywbeth cyffredinol?

(Translation) Just to make sure I understand you correctly, the £40 million additional funding would go towards something specific, rather than something general?

Iwan Trefor Jones: Byddai. Ac efo deilliannau clir.

(Translation) Yes, and it would have clear outcomes.

Q8                Jonathan Edwards: Ar sail beth rydych chi wedi ei ddweud hyd nawr, fy nealltwriaeth i o’r cynlluniau twf yw eich bod chi’n defnyddio arian Llywodraeth Prydain ac arian Llywodraeth Cymru i wedyn tynnu mewn arian sector breifat yn ogystal â phecyn o arian gan awdurdodau lleol. Gan fod yr arian yn llai na’r hyn roeddech chi’n ei ddisgwyl, ydy hynny wedi cael effaith o ran tynnu mewn y sector breifat a chael hyder awdurdodau lleol yn y gogledd?

(Translation) My understanding of the growth deals is that you use UK and Welsh Government funding to leverage in private sector funding and a funding package from local authorities. Given that the sum was lower than you anticipated, has that had an impact in terms of leveraging in funding from the private sector and gaining the confidence of local government in north Wales?

Ashley Rogers: In terms of the expectation of around £340 million, it does have a knock-on impact on the confidence of the private sector that this will be delivered. The less confidence there is, the less interest there is. I could not say you could quantify it, but certainly one of the things that Iwan talks about regularly is that the reason why we have stalled sites for commercial property in north Wales is that the developers have a limited capital budget. They have a choice of investing here or in Cheshire or Greater Manchester, where the return is greater, so why would you invest in an area where the return is less? If you look at that and think, “Okay, the growth deal is £340 million; that sounds great, but, actually, it is £240 million”, you start to lose momentum. So I don’t think you can quantify it, but I certainly think there is a knock-on impact on the confidence of the private sector when the number drops by £100 million.

Q9                Jonathan Edwards: That is very useful for the Committee to understand the implications.

Roedd y cyn Is-Weinidog, Nigel Adams, yn lled feirniadol o’r cytundeb fan hyn yn y gogledd. Byddai rhai ohonom ni’n bryderus bod Llywodraeth Prydain efallai’n defnyddio’r cytundebau twf yma i danseilio’r setliad cyfansoddiadol oherwydd eu bod nhw’n ymyrryd mewn datblygu economaidd. Ydych chi’n rhannu’r pryderon hynny?

(Translation): The former Under-Secretary of State, Nigel Adams, was quite critical of the plans here in north Wales. Some of us would be concerned that, because the growth deals intervene in economic development, the UK Government might use them to undermine the constitutional settlement. Do you share those concerns?

Councillor Siencyn: Mae hwnna’n gwestiwn gwleidyddol iawn, a dw i’n ymwybodol o fy swydd anwleidyddol. Mae gen i farn gref iawn. Mae’r ffin rhwng beth allai rhywun ei alw’n ymyrraeth gan Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol i faterion Cymreig yn un eithaf niwlog weithiau. Dyna un cwestiwn wnes i ofyn i Nigel Adams pan ddaeth o i Gaernarfon. Wnes i ddangos y tŵr crogi iddo sydd y tu allan i’n ffenestr i a dweud bod gen i restr hir o bobl yn barod i fynd yno. Mi gododd o sawl pwynt. Mi wnes i’r pwynt, “Mae’n ymddangos i mi,” meddwn i, “bob tro rydyn ni’n cael newid Gweinidog, mae yna ryw rwystr newydd yn ein cyfarch ni.” Roedden ni gyda Mims Davies ac roeddem ni’n meddwl “rydyn ni wedi cyrraedd lle cadarnhaol iawn” ac ein bod ni’n symud ymlaen. Roedd penodiad Nigel Adams, i mi, yn ein bwrw ni’n ôl.

Cwestiwn sy’n cael ei osod arnom ni yn gyson ydy pryder ynglŷn â chyfraniad y sector breifat. Fe geith Ashley siarad dros y sector breifat, ond o fy mhrofiad i, mae angen mynd yn ôl i adeg ffurfio’r bwrdd uchelgais – cyn sôn am gynllun twf–a rydyn ni wedi bod yma fel partneriaeth ers tua 2013 neu’n gynt hwyrach: y chwe chyngor sir, y sector breifat, y colegau a’r prifysgolion. Mae dylanwad y sector breifat wedi bod yn sylweddol iawn wrth i ni ddatblygu’r prosiectau.

Mae’n rhaid i ni gofio nad yw sector breifat gogledd Cymru yr un peth â sector breifat Manceinion neu Birmingham. Yn wir, yn y gogledd, mae gennym ni dipyn o wahaniaethau rhwng y dwyrain a’r gorllewin. Dyna oedd un o’r cwestiynau oeddwn i’n ei gael adref, yn fy nghyngor, sef sut ydyn ni’n gallu cymharu’n sefyllfa ni yng Ngwynedd sydd â sector breifat darniog iawn, 80% a mwy ohonyn nhw’n fusnesau bach iawn, tra mae gennych chi economi ymddangosiadol ffyniannus yn y dwyrain, sy’n bur wahanol i’n sefyllfa ni yn fan hyn? Ond y gwir amdani ydy, dw i’n credu ein bod ni wedi cyrraedd ryw fath o sefyllfa ble mae’r cynlluniau sydd gennym ni’n cyfarch dwy ochr y rhanbarth. Fe wna i droi at Ashley ynglŷn â materion y sector breifat.

(Translation) That is a very political question, and I am aware of my non-political role. I have a very strong view. The boundary between what one could call interference by the UK Government in Welsh matters is quite nebulous sometimes. Certainly there was one question that I asked Nigel Adams when he came to see us in Caernarfon. I showed him the hanging tower outside my window and said that I had a long list of people to take there. He raised several points and I said that every time we have a change of Minister, we are greeted with a new obstacle. We had Mims Davies and we thought we had got to a very positive place and were making progress. Then, with Nigel Adams’s appointment, my perception was that it set us back.

A question that is put to us regularly concerns the contribution of the private sector. From my experience—Ashley can speak for the private sector—if you go back to the formation of the ambition board, before you even talk about a growth deal, we have been here as a partnership since about 2013, or perhaps even earlier: the six county councils, the private sector, the colleges and the universities. The influence of the private sector has been significant as we have developed the projects.

Of course, we must remember that the private sector in north Wales is not the same as the private sector in Manchester or Birmingham. Indeed, in north Wales, there are substantial differences between the east and the west. These are questions that come up at home within our council: how can we, for example, compare our situation in Gwynedd, which has a very fragmented private sector—80%-plus are very small micro-businesses—with a seemingly very prosperous economy in the east, which is very different from our situation here? But I think that we have reached some kind of position whereby the plans that we have actually match and meet both sides of the region. I will turn to Ashley for matters relating to the private sector.

Ashley Rogers: Again, I agree, unfortunately, with Dyfrig about this. There was some criticism early on that we don’t have any major transformational projects in the deal. We don’t have one or two massive projects that look great as headlines. We have a list of projects that achieve what we want for our strategy in a way that fits our local business geography, so that it works for businesses in different sectors, in different ways and in different parts of north Wales.

We don’t have one big project. We have seen what happens when you put all your eggs in one basket with one big project. The bigger the project, the longer it takes to deliver, and the more chance it will be outpaced by politics or technology. We have gone for a practical, pragmatic approach, which includes 20 headlines as opposed to one massive headline. We have been criticised for that, but I stand by it. It is probably the best, most workable solution. Certainly in the private sector, businesses across the patch, support that.

Q10            Chair: Jyst ar y pwynt rydych chi wedi ei wneud, ydy’r nifer o Is-Weinidogion, a’r ffaith eu bod nhw wedi newid yn gyflym, yn achosi problemau ac yn tanseilio hyder yn yr holl beth?

(Translation.) Just on that point, has the number of Under-Secretaries and the fact that they have changed rapidly caused problems and undermined confidence in the whole thing?

Councillor Siencyn: I ryw raddau. Hynny ydy, mae rhai wedi cyrraedd a mynd yn gynt na’r lleill. Heb enwi neb, fyddwn i’n croesawu bod rhai wedi mynd yn gynt na’r lleill, ond dyna’r sefyllfa. [Chwerthin.] Doeddwn i ddim yn cyfeirio at neb yn benodol.

Rydyn ni’n cydnabod bod y sefyllfa wleidyddol yn un anarferol a dweud y lleiaf. Mae’n rhaid i ni fyw gyda’r sefyllfa wleidyddol yna ac mae hynny’n arwain at newidiadau. Ymateb Nigel Adams i fy mhwynt i ei bod hi’n ymddangos bod rhwystr newydd yn cael ei roi o’n blaenau ni bob tro roedd newid mewn Gweinidog oedd, “Wel, dw i’n Weinidog newydd”, fel petai hynny’n ddigon o reswm i newid y rheolau.

Wedi dweud hynny, rydyn ni wedi cael trafodaethau gyda Kevin Foster ac Alun Cairns ers hynny ac mae’n rhaid i mi ddweud, dw i’n credu bod yna newid sylweddol yn yr agweddau. Dw i’n meddwl bod yna wir ymgais i ni ddod i ben y daith. Rydyn ni wedi rhoi targed, sef gofyn ein bod ni’n arwyddo penawdau telerau erbyn diwedd mis Gorffennaf, ac mae’n ymddangos bod hynny’n bosibilrwydd. Mae hwnnw’n gam sylweddol iawn ymlaen. Dw i’n meddwl bod agwedd y ddau Weinidog yna, Alun Cairns a Kevin Foster, wedi bod yn help i ni gyrraedd lle rydyn ni ar y funud hon, gan obeithio na fydd yr un o’r ddau yn mynd yn fuan iawn cyn i ni arwyddo pethau eto.

(Translation.) To some extent. Some of them have come and gone quicker than others. Without naming anybody, I welcome the fact that some of them left earlier than others, but that is the situation. [Laughter.] I wasn’t referring to anyone in particular.

We are aware that the situation politically is unusual to say the very least, and we realise that we have to live with the political situation as it is, and that leads to changes. In response to my point that it appeared that there was a new obstacle being put in our way every time there was a change of Minister, Nigel Adams said, “Well, I’m a new Minister,” as if that was enough reason to change the rules.

Having said that, we have had discussions with Kevin Foster and Alun Cairns since then, and I must say that I think there has been a significant change in attitude. I think there has been a genuine attempt to get to where we need to go—to the end of our journey. We have set a target. We have asked to sign heads of terms by the end of July and it appears that that is a possibility. That is a significant step forwards. The attitudes of both Ministers—Alun Cairns and Kevin Foster—have been helpful in getting to where we are at the moment. I hope that neither of them leave quickly before we sign things.

Iwan Trefor Jones: Ga i drio peidio rhoi ateb gwleidyddol i’ch cwestiwn chi a thrio rhoi ateb mwy proffesiynol ar ran y tîm? Yn gyntaf, , mewn perthynas â’r hyn rydych chi wedi ei godi, mae gwaith y bwrdd uchelgais yn lot ehangach na dim ond y cynllun twf. Mae’r bwrdd uchelgais yn ymwneud efo datblygu cynllun hirdymor ar gyfer economi, trafnidiaeth, sgiliau a chyflogaeth ar draws gogledd Cymru, gyda’r nod fel y clywsoch chi gan Ashley, o sicrhau bod twf yn gymesur gyda chymeriad ieithyddol, economaidd, amgylcheddol gogledd Cymru.

Un elfen o’n gwaith ni yn y bwrdd uchelgais ydy gwaith yn ymwneud efo’r cynllun twf. Mae yna elfennau eraill, er enghraifft, yn ddiweddar iawn fe fuon ni’n llwyddiannus i gael arian DCMS ar gyfer cynllun LFFN ar gyfer gogledd Cymru sydd werth tua £8.5 miliwn. Felly mae gweithgaredd yn mynd ymlaen y tu hwnt i’r growth deal ac mae hynny’n bwynt pwysig i’w nodi.

Yr ail bwynt i’w nodi ydy, o ran ein hymwneud ni efo Llundain a San Steffan, hwyrach mai beth dydyn ni ddim wedi ei wneud yn broffesiynol ac yn effeithiol yn y gorffennol ydy denu arian o’r UK industrial strategy i ogledd Cymru. Rydyn ni wedi methu’n llwyr yn y gorffennol i wneud hynny. Rydyn ni wedi bod yn llwyddiannus o ran cael arian o Lywodraeth Cymru ac o Ewrop er mwyn ariannu prosiectau. Os ydych chi’n edrych ar faint o arian o strategaeth ddiwydiannol Llywodraeth Prydain sy’n cyrraedd gogledd Cymru, bach iawn ydy o. Er enghraifft, cynllun Innovate UK: mae yna werth £4.6 biliwn ar gael gan Lywodraeth Prydain a bron dim wedi dod i ogledd Cymru. Mae gogledd Cymru’n gymwys ar ei gyfer o. Felly mae’n rhaid i ni fel rhanbarth fod yn llawer mwy egnïol a mwy rhagweithiol er mwyn targedu’r adnoddau yna yn Llywodraeth Prydain a gwneud yn siŵr bod busnesau ac economi gogledd Cymru yn elwa o’r adnodd yna yn ogystal â chynlluniau fel y growth deal ac eraill rydyn ni’n ymwneud efo nhw. Gallem ni fod yn llawer mwy dylanwadol ac egnïol yn trio targedu’r arian yna yn y dyfodol.

(Translation) May I try to give a non-political answer, and a more professional response about the team? First, in relation to the point you have raised, the work of the ambition board is far broader than the growth bid. The ambition board relates to developing a long-term plan for the economy, transport, skills and employment across north Wales, with the aim, as you have heard from Ashley, of making sure that growth is compatible with the linguistic, economic and environmental factors at play in north Wales.

For the ambition board, the work relating to the growth bid is just one part of our work. There are other parts, for example, we have recently been successful in getting funding from DCMS for the LFFN scheme for north Wales, which is worth about £8.5 million. There is ongoing activity beyond the growth deal, which is an important point to note.

Secondly, in terms of our involvement with London and Westminster, in the past, we haven’t professionally and effectively attracted funding from the UK industrial strategy into north Wales. We have entirely failed to do that in the past. We have been successful in getting funding from the Welsh Government and from Europe for funding projects.

However, if you were to look at the amount of UK Government money from the industrial strategy gets to north Wales, it is very small. For example, the Innovate UK scheme has £4.6 billion available from the UK Government. Almost none of that has come to north Wales, and north Wales is eligible for it. We as a region have to be far more energised and proactive in targeting those UK Government resources, ensuring that businesses and the economy of north Wales benefit from that resource, in addition to the plans such as the growth deal and others we are involved in. We can be far more influential and energised in trying to target that money in the future.

Q11            Jonathan Edwards: Ga i ofyn un cwestiwn bras ynglŷn â sut mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ymyrryd a chydweithio gyda chi? Maen nhw’n bartner ar y cyd. Ydyn nhw mor lleisiol eu beirniadaeth â Llywodraeth Prydain neu ydyn nhw’n dueddol o gytuno gyda’ch cynlluniau chi?

(Translation) Can I ask one quick question on how the Welsh Government are intervening and collaborating with you? They are a joint partner. Are they as vocal in their criticism as the UK Government, or do they tend to agree with your plans?

Councillor Siencyn: Dw i’n bod yn ofalus eto. Dw i’n credu bod y berthynas rhyngom ni a Llywodraeth Cymru yn–roeddwn i’n mynd i ddweud yn un nes. Wedi dweud hynny, dw i’n credu bod y berthynas rhwng y swyddogion a swyddogion y Deyrnas Gyfunol wedi bod yn arbennig. Rydyn ni’n gweithio gyda Llywodraeth Cymru yn gyson yn lleol wrth gwrs. Mae’n debyg y byddwn i, yn wleidyddol, yn dymuno gweld gwell partneriaeth rhyngom ni yma fel awdurdodau lleol a Llywodraeth Cymru. Rydyn ni’n awyddus iawn i fedru dylanwadu ar benderfyniadau yma yn lleol yn y gogledd. Wedi’r cyfan, rydyn ni’n credu mewn datganoli a sybsidiaredd. Rydyn ni’n credu mai ni sydd yn y lle gorau i fedru gwneud penderfyniadau ar faterion megis trafnidiaeth, cymorth i fusnes, sgiliau ac yn y blaen.

Mae gan Lywodraeth Cymru ei strwythurau eisoes mewn lle. Dw i’n credu mai’n her ni ydy gwneud yn siŵr ein bod ni’n ffitio mewn i’r strwythurau hynny a’n bod ni’n gweithio’n agos iawn gyda swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru sydd yma’n gweithredu’n lleol fel ein bod ni’n cael ein cynnwys fel partneriaid cyfartal. Dw i’n meddwl bod yna waith i’w wneud i’r cyfeiriad hwnnw. Mae hwnna i’w ddatblygu. Mae’n debyg mai dyna un o’r risgiau sydd gennym ni. Mae yna duedd i gynlluniau Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer datblygu’r economi ddilyn eu trywydd eu hunain heb ein cynnwys ni a’n barn ni yn hynny. Wedi dweud hynny, rydyn ni’n datblygu’r berthynas. Dw i wedi cael trafodaethau gyda’r Gweinidog yn ddiweddar a dw i’n meddwl bod yntau hefyd yn gadarnhaol iawn ynglŷn â’r dyfodol. Rydyn ni angen ychydig bach mwy o gig ar yr asgwrn ynglŷn â’r bartneriaeth weithredol yna fydd rhyngom ni a Llywodraeth Cymru, yn fwy felly na Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol wrth gwrs achos does dim presenoldeb ar y ddaear gan Lywodraeth Prydain.

(Translation) Again, I will be careful, but I think that the relationship between us and the Welsh Government is—I was going to say “closer”. Having said that, I think the relationship between officials and UK Government officials has been particularly good. We work with the Welsh Government regularly locally of course. Politically, I would wish to see a better partnership between us as local authorities and the Welsh Government. We are very eager to be able to influence decisions here locally in north Wales. After all, we believe in devolution and subsidiarity and such matters. We think that we are best placed to make the decisions on issues such as transport, support for businesses, skills and so forth.

The Welsh Government have had their structures in place for a long time, and the challenge for us is to ensure that we fit into those structures and work very closely with Welsh Government officials who operate locally here so that we can be included as equal partners. I think there is work still to be done in that regard, but that is to be developed. I think that is one of the risks that we have. There is a tendency for Welsh Government plans to develop the economy to plough their own furrow without necessarily including us or our views. Having said that, we are developing the relationship. I have had discussions with the Minister recently, and the Welsh Government are very positive about the future. We need a little more meat on the bones in terms of that operational partnership that will exist between us and the Welsh Government. That is greater than with the UK Government of course, because the UK Government have no presence on the ground here.

Q12            Chair: Mae saith rhaglen strategol. Sut gallwch chi sicrhau bod y prosiectau’n arwain at dwf dros yr holl ardal a thrwy sectorau gwahanol, yn hytrach na chael ei ganolbwyntio mewn un lle?

(Translation) There are seven strategic programmes. How can you ensure that the projects lead to comprehensive growth across the whole region and through different sectors, rather than simply focusing on one area?

Iwan Trefor Jones: Roedd y pwynt rydych chi newydd ei godi yn sylfaenol ynglŷn â’r ffordd y rhoesom ni’r rhaglenni at ei gilydd. Fel rydych chi’n ei ddweud, mae gennym ni saith rhaglen fawr a’r ffordd dw i’n ei ddiffinio fo ydy bod tair o’r saith rhaglen yn ymwneud fwy efo sectorau’r economi–ynni carbon isel, gweithgynhyrchu arbenigol a diwydiannau’n ymwneud efo’r tir a thwristiaeth. Wedyn, mae pedair rhaglen sy’n ymwneud mwy efo isadeiledd a galluogwyr ar gyfer lledaenu twf ar draws y gogledd: y rhaglen ddigidol, y rhaglen drafnidiaeth, y rhaglen yn ymwneud efo safleoedd ac eiddo ac wrth gwrs y rhaglen sgiliau. Mae’r pedair rhaglen yn cefnogi’r bwriad o uchafu cyfraniad tair sector yr economi i’r gogledd.

Mewn ffordd, mae’n rhaglenni ni yn mynd ar draws y gogledd ac yn trio dod dros yr anghyfartaledd sy’n bodoli yn ofodol ac yn gymdeithasol ar draws y gogledd. Mae hwnna wedi bod yn sylfaenol wrth ddatblygu’r rhaglenni. Felly mae yna saith rhaglen, ac mae gennym ni brosiectau unigol o fewn y rhaglenni hynny. Mae rhai prosiectau yn amlwg wedi cael eu lleoli yn y gogledd-orllewin a rhai yn y gogledd-ddwyrain. Ond y nod ydy sicrhau bod pob rhan o ogledd Cymru yn elwa ohonyn nhw. Mae’r rhaglen ddigidol, er enghraifft, yn mynd i elwa pob rhan o ogledd Cymru. Fe fyddwn ni’n cysylltu Caergybi ac ardaloedd ym Meirionnydd, ac ym Mhen Llŷn gyda Glannau Dyfrdwy drwy’r rhwydwaith ffibr newydd. Mae hwnna’n gynllun sydd werth yn agos i £38 miliwn. Bydd y rhaglen eiddo a safleoedd yn cyffwrdd bob rhan o’r gogledd. Bydd y rhaglen i ddicarboneiddio trafnidiaeth hefyd yn gwneud yr un peth. Wrth gwrs, mae’r agenda sgiliau a chyflogaeth o ran paratoi pobl ar gyfer gwaith a’r berthynas efo addysg bellach ac addysg uwch hefyd yn mynd i gyffwrdd pobl ifanc ar draws gogledd Cymru. Mae trio sicrhau bod gogledd Cymru yn elwa o waith y bwrdd yn egwyddor sylfaenol o’r hyn rydyn ni’n ei wneud drwy’n rhaglenni gwaith gwahanol.

(Translation) The point that you have just raised is fundamental in terms of how we put the programmes together. As you say, we have seven major programmes. The way I divide it is that of those seven, we have three programmes relating more to the economy: low carbon; manufacturing, and industries to do with the land and tourism. Then you have four programmes that relate more to infrastructure and the enablers for spreading growth across north Wales: the digital programme, the transport programme, the programme relating to sites and property and the skills programme. Those four programmes support the intention of maximising the contribution made by the three sectors of the economy in north Wales.

In a way, our programmes stretch across north Wales and try to overcome the inequity that exists at a spatial and social level across north Wales. That has been fundamental as we have developed the programmes. There are therefore seven programmes, and we have individual projects within them. Clearly, some projects are located in north-west Wales, and some in north-east Wales. The aim is to ensure that each part of north Wales benefits from them. The digital programme, for example, will benefit every part of north Wales. With the new fibre connections, we will connect Holyhead, and areas in Meirionnydd and the Llŷn peninsula with Deeside. That is a scheme worth almost £38 million. The property and sites programme will touch all parts of north Wales, and the low carbon and de-carbonisation of transport will do the same thing. Of course, the skills and employment agenda on preparing people for the world of work, and the relationship with further and higher education, will also affect young people across north Wales. Trying to ensure that north Wales benefits from the work of the board is a fundamental principle of what we are seeking to do through our different programmes of work.

Councillor Siencyn: I ychwanegu at hynny, fel arweinydd cyngor yn y gorllewin pell, roedd hwn yn her oeddwn i’n ei gael gan fy aelodau fy hun. Sut yn y byd y medrwn i sicrhau y bydd budd economaidd yn dod i Ben Llŷn a de Meirionnydd? Fe allem ni gynhyrchu ffigurau ar gyfer y gogledd yn rhwydd iawn drwy gael mwy o dwf economaidd yn y dwyrain. Hynny ydy, byddai’n hawdd cael y twf economaidd yna. Mae’n llawer iawn anoddach cyflawni’r twf economaidd yna mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Mae angen–mae pob partner rownd y bwrdd yn ymwybodol o hyn–i ni fod yn gallu cyflawni’r twf yma ar draws yr holl ardal. Ar brydiau, mae angen mwy o fuddsoddiad mewn ardaloedd lle mae diffyg twf neu ddiffyg strwythur economaidd nag oes mewn ardal arall. Mae Iwan wedi cyfeirio at y prosiectau hynny allai fod yn drawsnewidiol i holl ranbarthau’r gogledd.

(Translation) To add to that, this was a challenge that I heard from my own members as the leader of a council in the far west. How on earth could we ensure there would be economic benefits coming to the Llŷn peninsula and the south Meirionnydd area? We could produce figures for north Wales very easily by getting more economic growth in the east. It would be very easy to get economic growth there, but it is far more difficult to achieve that economic growth in rural areas. Every partner around the table is aware that we need to be able to deliver this growth across the whole area. From time to time, more investment is needed in areas where there is a lack of growth or economic structure compared with other areas. I think Iwan has referred to the projects that could be transformational for all the regions of north Wales.

Ashley Rogers: Iwan talked about digital connectivity and the strategy we have there. The growth deal has enabled us as a region—it has been a catalyst for setting up a strategy. The UK Government has given us the offer of open negotiations, and we put together a strategy on the back of that. Within that growth strategy is a strategy for digital connectivity, and the growth deal is one intervention within that to deliver what we need. There were some mentions in the press that we should spend £120 million on digital connectivity, with no justification for that at all. We have faced criticisms such as, “Why do you not have a big, single, sexy project, and why are you not spending all the money on digital connectivity?” We have to justify what we are spending the money on. As a taxpayer and business owner, I think that is the right thing to do—so does the Treasury, as it happens. From our point of view, we have gone for the biggest impact with the cash that we have managed to negotiate so far.

Q13            Guto Bebb: On that, I agree with you, especially in view of the fact that one of my party’s leadership candidates proposed £50 billion last night for fibre across the UK. There will be plenty of opportunities to bid for that one, I suspect.

Cwestiwn sydd gen i ynghylch y ganolfan arbenigedd yn y maes niwclear sy’n mynd i gael ei datblygu gan Brifysgol Bangor. Oes modd i un ohonoch chi roi cyflwyniad ynglŷn â beth yn union ydy bwriad y ganolfan honno sydd wrth gwrs mewn maes sydd wedi gweld penderfyniadau siomedig yn cael eu gwneud yng nghyd-destun y gogledd yn ddiweddar.

(Translation) I have a question on the nuclear energy centre of excellence that will be developed at Bangor University. Would one of you like to give us some idea about the intention behind the centre of excellence? It is in an area of north Wales that has seen some disappointing decisions taken recently.

Councillor Siencyn: Iwan, mae gen ti’r manylion.

(Translation) Iwan, you have the details.

Guto Bebb: Mae gen i gwestiwn penodol i chi ar y mater yma wedyn.

(Translation) I have a specific question for you on this matter afterwards.

Iwan Trefor Jones: Mae’n un o’r 14 o brosiectau rydyn ni wedi eu cyflwyno. Mae o’n datblygu ymhellach ar y thema o ddatblygu gogledd Cymru yn ganolbwynt ar gyfer y sector ynni carbon isel a niwclear yn enwedig. Bwriad y ganolfan ydy bod yn flaengar o ran ymchwil, datblygu, gwaith technoleg mewn perthynas ag ynni niwclear, yn enwedig mewn perthynas â’r SMR yn Nhrawsfynydd. Mae lot o ddiddordeb wedi bod gan y sector breifat i fod yn bartner i’r ganolfan, fydd yn cael ei noddi gan Brifysgol Bangor, ac a fydd yn adeiladu ar y buddsoddi sydd wedi digwydd drwy M-SParc a’r datblygiadau yng Ngaerwen.

Ond prif ffocws y ganolfan fydd gwneud y gwaith o ran arloesedd, gwaith datblygu technoleg newydd yn ynni niwclear ac yn benodol y bartneriaeth yma gyda Thrawsfynydd o ran SMR. Felly dyna ydy’r bwriad ac mae yna gyfraniad sylweddol yn dod gan Brifysgol Bangor ar gyfer y cynllun yma. Fe fydd yna gyfraniad hefyd yn deillio o’r sector breifat. Ond mae’r gofyn yn y growth deal yn agos i £19 miliwn ar gyfer datblygu’r ganolfan yna, sydd yn amlwg â chyswllt agos iawn efo’r cynllun o ran rhoi’r isadeiledd i mewn yn Nhrawsfynydd a pharatoi Trawsfynydd ar gyfer ynni niwclear i’r dyfodol.

(Translation) It is one of the 14 projects that we have submitted, and it develops further the theme of making north Wales into a focal point for low carbon and the nuclear sector in particular. The intention of the centre is to be innovative and progressive in research, in developing technological work in relation to nuclear energy, and particularly in relation to the SMR in Trawsfynydd. There has been a lot of interest from the private sector in being a partner in the centre of excellence that will be sponsored by Bangor University, which will build on the investment that has already taken place through M‑SParc and developments in Gaerwen.

The main focus of the centre will be the work in innovation, the work in developing new technology in nuclear energy, and specifically the partnership with Trawsfynydd in terms of the SMR. That is the intention, and there is a significant contribution by Bangor University to this scheme. There will also be a contribution from the private sector, but the request in the growth deal is up to £19 million for developing that centre, which clearly has a very close connection to the plan in terms of putting infrastructure into Trawsfynydd and preparing Trawsfynydd for nuclear energy for the future.

Q14            Guto Bebb: I ddilyn ar hynny, mae rhywun yn gwerthfawrogi pwysigrwydd y ganolfan ac uchelgais y brifysgol o ran denu staff o safon i weithio yno. Oes yna unrhyw bryderon ynghylch gallu’r brifysgol i wneud hynny yn sgil rhai o’r straeon yn y wasg? Dw i’n gwerthfawrogi nad ydy’r brifysgol yma heddiw ond fel Aelod Seneddol yn lleol, mae rhywun yn cael gohebiaeth ynghylch penderfyniadau ynghylch yr adran gemeg er enghraifft, sydd yn siomedigaeth. Mae yna gwestiynau’n codi o ran yr angen am ddiswyddiadau penodol. Ydych chi’n gallu rhoi unrhyw sicrwydd bod buddsoddiad a chefnogaeth y brifysgol yn ddiogel yn y maes yma neu oes yna bryder?

(Translation) Just to follow up on that, naturally we appreciate the importance of the centre and the ambition of the university in attracting high-quality staff to work there. Are there any concerns about the university’s ability to do that, following some of the stories we have heard in the press? I appreciate the university are not here today, but as the local MP, of course one does receive correspondence—about decisions made about the chemistry department, for example, which was disappointing, and of course questions arise about the need for redundancies. Can you give us any assurance that the university’s support is secure in this regard, or are there concerns?

Councillor Siencyn: Dydyn ni ddim wedi cael unrhyw arwydd o gwbl gan y brifysgol bod yna ansicrwydd ynglŷn â’u buddsoddiad nhw. Dw i’n credu, a dweud y gwir, neu mae’n ymddangos i mi beth bynnag, bod y buddsoddiad allanol y maen nhw’n ei gael i mewn i hwn, fel maes newydd, yn rhoi mwy o sicrwydd. Dw i’n meddwl bod y diddordeb sydd gan y sector breifat yn benodol yn y maes yn allweddol. Dw i ddim yn arbenigwr yn y maes ond fel dw i’n deall, mae’r gwaith arbrofol maen nhw’n ei wneud a’r adnoddau i fedru arbrofi yn ennyn diddordeb sylweddol yn y sector breifat a dw i’n meddwl bod hynny’n rhoi rhyw fath o gysur yn wyneb y diffygion cyllid cyhoeddus mae’n debyg rydych chi’n cyfeirio atyn nhw. Efallai y gall Ashley roi cig ar yr asgwrn yn fan yna.

(Translation) We have not had any indication whatsoever from the university that there is any uncertainty in terms of their investment. To be honest, it appears to me that the external investment that they are getting into this—into a new area—provides further certainty. I think the interest that the private sector specifically has in this area is key. I am not an expert on this area, but as I understand it, the work that they do—the experimental work, the resources to be able to experiment—really is attracting significant interest from the private sector, and I think that that provides some kind of comfort in the face of public funding deficits that I think you are referring to, but perhaps Ashley can put some flesh on the bones.

Ashley Rogers: Bangor has expanded its nuclear base of staff; they have taken on world-class talent in the new Nuclear Futures Institute. Also, as I understand it, the test facility at Bangor would be the only one in Europe, so that in itself attracts private sector interest because they cannot get this anywhere else. I do not think that whether Bangor scales up or scales down other departments is necessarily material to the nuclear side of things.

Q15            Guto Bebb: Dau gwestiwn mwy cyffredinol. Fel cadeirydd y grŵp bellach ac is-gadeirydd yn flaenorol a chadeirydd Cyngor Gwynedd, mi ddaru chi ddatgan bod y penderfyniad ynghylch Wylfa yn fater o bryder sylweddol i chi yng nghyd-destun eich gwaith yng Nghyngor Gwynedd. Felly i ba raddau ydych chi’n credu bod hynny’n parhau yn wir neu ydych chi’n teimlo ychydig bach yn fwy optimistig ynghylch y sefyllfa yn Wylfa? Dyna’r cwestiwn cyntaf. A’r ail gwestiwn ydy, rydych chi wedi cyffwrdd yn barod ar y datblygiadau posibl yn Nhrawsfynydd. Yn sgil y ffaith bod yna ddiddordeb cynyddol gan fusnesau preifat mewn gweld datblygiad yn Nhrawsfynydd, pa mor hyderus ydych chi fod y gwaith braenaru’r tir sy’n cael ei wneud fel rhan o waith y bwrdd uchelgais, yn mynd i weld datblygiad o ddifrif yn Nhrawsfynydd hefyd?

(Translation) Just two more general questions. As the chair of the group and the previous vice-chair, and the chair of Gwynedd Council, you stated that the decision around Wylfa was a matter of significant concern to you in the context of your work in Gwynedd Council. To what extent do you believe that that remains true, or do you feel a little bit more optimistic now in relation to the situation in Wylfa? That is my first question.

The second question is this: you have already touched on the possible developments in Trawsfynydd. In the light of the fact that there is increasing interest from private businesses in seeing a development within Trawsfynydd, how confident are you that this work of preparing the ground that is currently being done as part of the ambition board’s work, will see a serious development taking place in Trawsfynydd as well?

Councillor Siencyn: Mae gohirio penderfyniad Wylfa yn amlwg yn ergyd sylweddol i economi gogledd Cymru. Roedd o’n fuddsoddiad mor anferthol, mae o’n cael effaith arnom ni i gyd, yn arbennig Ynys Môn wrth gwrs. Mae rhywun yn cydymdeimlo â’u sefyllfa nhw.

O’n safbwynt ni yng Ngwynedd yn benodol, mi fyddai effaith Wylfa yn ymestyn yr holl ffordd lawr, yn bellach na Dolgellau. Gyda’r cyfleon gwaith oedd yn datblygu yno, mae’n drueni. Dw i’n ymwybodol iawn o’r peth. Roedd merch cymydog i mi yn un o’r prentisiaid gyda Horizon ac mae hi wedi trafeilio’r byd yn ei gwaith–mae hi wedi bod yn Japan, yn Sbaen–a bellach, wrth gwrs, does dim gwaith lleol iddi hi yn anffodus. Dydyn ni ddim wedi cyrraedd diwedd y daith efo Wylfa. Mae yna drafodaeth bellach ynglŷn â sut mae cyllido’r math yna o brosiect. Mae hynny yn nwylo eich Llywodraeth chi, rhyw ben neu’i gilydd.

O safbwynt Trawsfynydd, dw i’n bur hyderus bod diddordeb yn yr adweithyddion bychan yma, sydd, mae’n ymddangos, yn rhwyddach i’w cyllido, gan nad ydy’r gost mor enfawr. Fel dw i’n deall, mae’r sector breifat yn gallu gwneud cyfraniad sylweddol i ddatblygu cynlluniau o’r fath. Felly, dw i’n meddwl bod yna gryn hyder ar hyn o bryd y bydd datblygiad o’r fath yn digwydd yn Nhrawsfynydd. Mae’n dibynnu eto ar gyhoeddiad gan y Llywodraeth yn Llundain ond dw i wedi cael cyfarfodydd gyda gwahanol gwmnïau sydd wirioneddol â diddordeb mewn rhyw fath o ddatblygiad ar y safle.

Mae’n bosibilrwydd bod yna gyfleon eraill ar y safle. Heb ddatgelu unrhyw gyfrinachau, mae’n bosibilrwydd y gallem ni fod yn datblygu rhyw fath o adnodd meddygol niwclear yno a byddai hynny i’w groesawu. Mae’r holl beth, wrth gwrs, yn clymu i mewn gyda’r datblygiad yn y brifysgol. Rydyn ni’n gobeithio y bydd cyswllt rhwng yr adnodd yn y brifysgol a Thrawsfynydd fel, pe bai adweithydd yn dod yno, y cyntaf o’i fath, y bydd gwaith ymchwil yn digwydd o gwmpas hwnna hefyd. Dw i’n meddwl bod yna gyfleon arbennig iawn yn y dyfodol nid mor bell, yn Nhrawsfynydd.

(Translation) The decision on Wylfa is clearly a significant blow to the economy of north Wales. It was such a huge investment. It is having an impact on all of us, particularly in Anglesey, and we sympathise with their situation.

In terms of our point of view in Gwynedd, the impact of Wylfa stretches all the way down the county, further than Dolgellau. Given the work opportunities that they were developing there, it is a shame. I am keenly aware that a neighbour’s daughter was one of the Horizon apprentices. She has travelled the world with her work. She has been to Japan; she has been to Spain. Now, of course, there is unfortunately no local work for her. However, it is not as if we’ve got to the end of the journey on Wylfa; I think there is further discussion on how that kind of project can be funded, and that is in the hands of your Government, in some shape or form.

On Trawsfynydd, I am quite confident that there is interest in the small nuclear reactors, which it appears are easier to fund; the cost is not as huge and, as I understand it, the private sector can make a significant contribution to developing such plans and schemes. I think there is considerable confidence at the moment that a development of that nature will happen in Trawsfynydd. Again, of course, it depends on an announcement by the Government in London, but I have had meetings with different companies that really have an interest in some kind of development on the site.

It is possible that there will be other opportunities for the site. Without disclosing any secrets, we could be developing some kind of nuclear medical facility, which would be welcome. The whole thing, of course, ties in to the development at the university, and we are hopeful about the link between the resource in the university and Trawsfynydd. If there were to be a reactor, it would be the first of its type, and research could be undertaken around that as well. I think there are particular opportunities in the future—perhaps not in the distant future either—in Trawsfynydd.

Iwan Trefor Jones: Rydyn ni’n gofyn am £20 miliwn efo cynllun Trawsfynydd o’r growth deal. Mi fyddai’r £20 miliwn yna’n mynd tuag at ddatblygu’r isadeiledd ar safle Trawsfynydd. Mae yna gydweithio da iawn yn digwydd efo BEIS yn Llundain ac efo Llywodraeth Cymru o ran sut i ddatblygu’r safle yna i’r dyfodol o ystyried y cyfleon roedd y cadeirydd yn cyfeirio atyn nhw.

Y pwynt arall fyddwn i’n ei wneud ydy’r cyswllt rhwng y prosiectau i gyd. Dydyn nhw ddim yn sefyll ar eu pennau eu hunain. Maen nhw i gyd yn integredig, maen nhw i gyd yn cefnogi ei gilydd. Os bydd un yn syrthio, mae’n effeithio’r gweddill. Mae’r cynllun digidol yn amlwg yn gynllun allweddol i ddatblygu Trawsfynydd. Mae cynllun porthladd Caergybi hefyd yn berthnasol i Drawsfynydd. Mae’r cynllun sgiliau rydyn ni’n ei ddatblygu hefyd yn berthnasol i Drawsfynydd. Mae’r cynllun yn ymwneud gyda phrifysgol Bangor a’r ganolfan yn berthnasol i Drawsfynydd. Mae’r rhain yn gasgliad o brosiectau sy’n dibynnu ar ei gilydd. Mae’r cynllun digidol roeddwn i’n cyfeirio ato yn berthnasol iawn os ydyn ni eisiau datblygu data centre o safon ar gyfer datblygu Trawsfynydd. Yn amlwg, mae’n rhaid i ni gael y ffibr ac mae’n rhaid i ni gael yr isadeiledd cywir ar y safle. Mae’n rhaid i ni edrych tu hwnt i’r prosiectau yma weithiau a sicrhau ein bod ni’n edrych ar y portffolio llawn er mwyn llwyr werthfawrogi'r effaith mae’n mynd i’w gael ar ardaloedd a chymunedau gwahanol ar draws gogledd Cymru.

(Translation) We are asking for £20 million from the growth deal for the Trawsfynydd scheme. That £20 million would go towards developing the infrastructure on the Trawsfynydd site. There is very good collaboration going on with BEIS in London and with the Welsh Government on how to develop that site in the future, considering the opportunities that the chair referred to.

The other point I would make is about the connection between all the projects. They are not stand-alone. They are all integrated and they all support each other; if one fell, it would have an impact on the others. The digital scheme, for example, is vital for the development of Trawsfynydd. The port of Holyhead scheme is also relevant to Trawsfynydd. The skills scheme we are developing, and the scheme relating to Bangor University, with the centre for excellence, are also relevant to Trawsfynydd. So this is a collection of interdependent projects, and the digital scheme is very relevant. If we want a high-quality data centre for developing Trawsfynydd, we clearly have to have the fibre and have to get the right infrastructure in place on the site. We have to look beyond these projects sometimes and ensure that we look at the whole portfolio, to fully appreciate the impact it will have on areas and communities across north Wales.

Q16            Guto Bebb: Un cwestiwn i gloi. Dw i’n derbyn yr hyn sydd wedi cael ei ddweud ynghylch pwysigrwydd Wylfa a hefyd wrth gwrs y gobeithion am Drawsfynydd. Ond roeddech chi’n cyffwrdd â’r ffaith nad ydych chi wedi rhoi’r gorau i’r gobaith y bydd yna ddatblygiad yn Wylfa maes o law. Dw i’n credu ei bod yn deg i ddweud bod yna gryn syndod wedi bod yn y Senedd pan ddatgelwyd bod lefel y gefnogaeth bosibl o du Llywodraeth Prydain wedi bod yn sylweddol iawn ond eto doedd o dal ddim yn ddigon. Wrth gwrs, mae’r Llywodraeth rŵan yn trio datblygu dull newydd o gyllido’r math yma o brosiectau. A oes rhai o’r darpar fuddsoddwyr posibl yn Nhrawsfynydd wedi dangos unrhyw ddiddordeb yn y math o gynllun cyllido sy’n cael ei ystyried ar gyfer Wylfa?

(Translation) I have one last question. I accept what has been said in about the importance of Wylfa and the hopes and prospects for Trawsfynydd, but you touched on the fact that you haven’t given up hope that there may be development in Wylfa in due course. I think it is fair to say that there was quite a surprise in Parliament when it was revealed that the level of possible support from the UK Government was very substantial but was still not enough. The Government is now trying to develop a new method of funding this kind of project. Have any of the potential investors in Trawsfynydd shown any interest in the kind of plan that is being developed for Wylfa?

Councillor Siencyn: Dydw i ddim yn ymwybodol o hynny. Dw i ddim yn siŵr a fyddai angen y math yna o ddull ariannu ond hwyrach fy mod i’n hollol anghywir am hynny. Mae’n amlwg bod y buddsoddiad yn Wylfa yn un mawr mawr, bron yn anodd ei ddirnad. Mae’r buddsoddiad yn yr adweithyddion bychan yn llawer iawn llai. Does gen i ddim ffigurau ar hyn o bryd. Mae yna botensial i ddatblygiadau adweithyddion bychan y tu allan i unrhyw drefn ariannu newydd. Gall o fod yn help mae’n siŵr–os ydy o’n help i fuddsoddiad anferthol yna gall fod yn help i fuddsoddiad llai. Fedrwn ni ddim rhoi heibio Wylfa ar hyn o bryd achos mae’r safle yn dal ar gael i’w ddefnyddio. Mae’r gwaith cynllunio yn dal i fynd yn ei flaen. A hyd yn oed pe bai ni’n ffeindio rhyw ddefnydd arall ar ei gyfer o, mae hynny ymhellach i’r dyfodol nag ydy Trawsfynydd ar hyn o bryd.

(Translation) I am not aware of that, and I am not sure if that kind of funding method would be needed, but I might be totally wrong. It is clear that the investment in Wylfa was very major—almost impossible to perceive. Investment in the small reactors is far lower, but I don’t have the figures at the moment. There is potential for development in small reactors, I think, outside any new funding system. It could be a help, I’m sure; if it helps huge investment, it can help smaller investments as well. We can’t put Wylfa to one side, because the site is still available for use. The planning work is ongoing, and even if we were to find some other use for it, that would be further in the future than Trawsfynydd at present.

Q17            Ben Lake: Ga i droi nawr i sôn rywfaint am y dull arall o greu egni a hynny yw'r morlyniau llanw? Dw i ar ddeall bod y cynllun gweithredu yn neilltuo cyllid ar gyfer cynllun y Morlais. Mae diddordeb gen i a dweud y gwir. Ydy’r penderfyniadau ynghylch y morlyn llanw yn Abertawe wedi codi pryderon i chi am ba mor bosibl fydd creu’r cynllun yma lan yn y gogledd?

(Translation) May I now turn to talk a bit about the other method of creating energy—the tidal streams? I understand that the implementation plan sets aside funding for the Morlais tidal project. I have an interest in knowing whether the decisions on the Swansea tidal lagoon caused any concerns for you regarding how possible creating this scheme might be in north Wales.

Councillor Siencyn: Mae’n debyg bod cynlluniau Morlais a’i debyg–mae cynllun posibl yn swnt Enlli hefyd, sy’n debyg iawn i’r un Morlais sy’n defnyddio llif y llanw. Mae cynllun Morlais, fel dw i’n ei deall hi, yn gynllun sy’n hwyluso arbrofi yn y maes. Ein buddsoddiad ni ydy sicrhau bod y cyswllt grid yn briodol ar gyfer hynny. A dyna ydy’r broblem. Roeddwn i’n siarad ynglŷn â’r cynllun Enlli a’r broblem sylweddol yn y fan honno ydy sut i drosglwyddo’r trydan. Dydy’r grid ddim yn gallu ei gymryd o. Gyda llaw, mae yna bethau diddorol iawn yn ein prosiect ynni cymunedol ni sydd, gobeithio, yn datblygu syniadau ynglŷn â defnyddio ynni yn lleol, creu gridiau lleol. Fory nesaf, dw i’n mynd i wrando ar gyflwyniad ar y defnydd o hydrogen yn y maes. Dw i’n meddwl bod potensial sylweddol iawn i ddefnyddio hydrogen–cynhyrchu’r trydan yn lleol, ei storio fo fel hydrogen, ei gario fo fel hydrogen ac yn y blaen. Mae’n ddiddorol ac mae’n eithaf cyffrous.

Mae buddsoddiad mewn cynllun tebyg i un bae Abertawe–ac mae gennym ni gynlluniau o’r fath yn y gogledd–yn golygu buddsoddiad cyfalaf sylweddol iawn, sydd yn fwy na’r hyn rydyn ni’n sôn amdano. Un peth am y bwrdd uchelgais ydy, dydyn ni ddim wedi cau’r drws ar unrhyw fath o gynllun. Fel mae Iwan wedi sôn, rydyn ni’n cadw llygad ar wahanol ffynonellau o arian–o ble bynnag, ac os byddwn ni’n gallu hwyluso unrhyw fath o gynllun ynni adnewyddol, megis morlyn, yna fe fyddwn ni’n manteisio ar hynny. Ond ar hyn o bryd, dydy hynny ddim ar ein rhaglen ni, o safbwynt un yr un fath ag un Abertawe.

(Translation) There is another possible scheme in Bardsey sound, which is similar to the Morlais one and uses the tidal stream. As I understand it, the Morlais plan is a scheme that facilitates experimentation in this area of work. Our investment is in ensuring that the grid connection is appropriate for that, and that is the problem. I was speaking about the Bardsey project. The fundamental plan there is how we get the energy—the electricity—that the grid cannot get to Bardsey. By the way, there are some very interesting things in our community energy project, which is hopefully developing ideas on using energy locally and creating local grids. Tomorrow, I will hear a presentation on the use of hydrogen. I think there is very significant potential for using hydrogen—to produce energy locally, store it as hydrogen, transport it as hydrogen and so forth. It is interesting and quite exciting.

The investment in a similar scheme to Swansea bay—we have similar plans here in north Wales—would mean a significant capital investment, greater than that which we are talking about. One thing about the ambition board is that we haven’t closed the door on any kind of scheme, as Iwan mentioned. We are keeping an eye on different funding sources, from wherever, and if we could facilitate any kind of renewable energy scheme, such as a tidal stream one, we would take advantage of that if we possibly could, but at the moment that is not in our programme on the same level as the Swansea bay one.

Iwan Trefor Jones: Yr unig beth ddyweda i yw bod graddfa cynllun Morlais yn hollol hollol wahanol i’r un roeddech chi’n cyfeirio ato. Tua £9 miliwn ydy’r gofyn o’r cynllun twf ar gyfer cynllun Morlais. Yn amlwg, ynni llanw ydy’r sylw ar hyn o bryd. Mae yna waith wedi digwydd efo Ystad y Goron er mwyn cael cytundeb ar gyfer cynllun Morlais. Mae yna dri safle tebyg, os dw i’n cofio’n iawn, ar draws Prydain. Mae rhyw fath o gytundeb wedi cael ei roi i Menter Môn i ddatblygu cynllun Morlais oddi ar arfordir Caergybi. Bydd y £9 miliwn yna’n mynd tuag at sicrhau cyswllt o’r safle i’r grid cenedlaethol. Dyna ble mae lot o brosiectau ynni cymunedol, ynni adnewyddol yn syrthio. Dydyn nhw ddim yn gallu dod dros y costau o ran cysylltu efo’r grid. Fyddwn ni’n dod dros hynny drwy fuddsoddi yn y cynllun yma.

Mae yna ddatblygwyr â diddordeb mawr yn y cynllun Morlais; mae o’n torri tir newydd, mae o’n arloesol. Rydyn ni eisiau gweld cynlluniau o’r math yma’n datblygu yn y gogledd. Rydyn ni eisiau enw da fel gogledd wrth ymwneud gydag ynni carbon isel. Rydyn ni hefyd eisiau edrych ar y defnydd o’r ynni sy’n cael ei greu. Sut gallwn ni gadw’r ynni yna’n lleol? Sut gallwn ni ei droi o’n hydrogen? Sut gallwn ni ei storio? Sut gallwn ni bweru cludiant cyhoeddus yn Eryri, er enghraifft, o’r pŵer sy’n cael ei gynhyrchu o gynlluniau fel Morlais? Dyna ble rydyn ni eisiau mynd â’r drafodaeth. Rydyn ni’n sefydlu ryw fath o is-bwyllgor o’r bwrdd uchelgais yn edrych ar raglenni cynllun ynni carbon isel ar draws y gogledd i gael gweld beth ydy’r potensial o ran sicrhau bod busnesau a chymunedau ar draws y gogledd yn elwa o’r ynni sy’n cael ei gynhyrchu yn y gogledd–rhywbeth hwyrach dydyn ni ddim wedi ei wneud yn ddigon effeithiol yn y gorffennol. Dw i’n gwybod bod Ashley yn teimlo’n gryf ynglŷn â hynny hefyd.

(Translation) One thing I would say is that the scale of the Morlais scheme is totally different from the one you referred to. About £9 million was requested from the growth deal for the Morlais scheme and, clearly, we are focusing on tidal energy at the moment. Work is being undertaken to seek agreement from the Crown Estate for the Morlais scheme. There are three similar sites, if I remember correctly, across Britain, and an agreement has been given to Menter Môn to develop the Morlais scheme off the Holyhead coast. That £9 million will go towards ensuring a connection from the site to the national grid. That is where lots of the renewable community energy projects fall because they cannot overcome the costs of connecting to the grid. We would overcome that by investing in this scheme.

There are developers with a major interest in the Morlais scheme. It is groundbreaking and innovative, and we want to see such schemes developing in north Wales. We want north Wales to have a good reputation for involvement with low carbon energy. We want to look at the use of the energy that is created. How can we retain and store that energy locally? How can we turn it into hydrogen? How can we store the energy and how can we power public transport in Snowdonia, for example, from the power that is generated from plans and schemes such as Morlais? That is where we want to take the discussion and we are establishing a sub-committee of the ambition board to look at low carbon energy programmes across north Wales, to see the potential for ensuring that businesses and communities across north Wales can benefit from the energy generated in north Wales. That is something we have not done effectively enough in the past. I know that Ashley feels strongly about that as well.

Q18            Chair: Cyn i ni droi at Mr Rogers, ga i jyst gofyn rhywbeth ar y pwynt yna? I ba raddau ydych chi’n cytuno bod y strike price yn allweddol i brosiectau fel yma? Yn achos Swansea bay, dw i’n deall bod y strike price yn fwy fel £150 y megawat awr o’i gymharu gyda’r orsaf niwclear ym Mryste, Hinkley Point, sydd yn £92.50 y megawat awr felly roedd o’n lot fwy na Hinkley. Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi dweud nad ydyn nhw’n barod i dalu mwy na Hinkley yn y dyfodol ac felly dw i ddim yn gweld sut gallwn ni fynd ymlaen gyda phrosiectau fel Morlais os ydyn nhw eisiau mwy na’r 92.50 y megawat awr. Dw i ddim yn gallu gweld sut bydd y Llywodraeth yn cytuno.

(Translation) Before we turn to Mr Rogers, can I ask something on this point? To what extent do you agree that the strike price is vital to such projects? In the case of the Swansea bay project, I understand the strike price was more like £150 per MWh, compared with Hinkley Point, which is £92.50 per MWh. It was far greater than Hinkley, and the Government have said they are not willing to pay more than Hinkley in the future. I don’t see how we can proceed with projects such as Morlais if they want more than the £92.50 per MWh. I don’t see how the Government would agree.

Iwan Trefor Jones: Dw i’n gwybod bod y trafodaethau yna’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd rhwng Morlais a Menter Môn gyda’r Llywodraeth. Mae yna fuddion ehangach yn fan hyn, wrth gwrs. Dyna rydyn ni’n trio ei bwysleisio, bod yna fanteision economaidd cymunedol o ddatblygiad fel Morlais. Gall hwn fod y cyntaf o’i fath ar draws y gogledd. Y nod sydd gennym ni yw gweld cyfres o gynlluniau fel hyn yn datblygu ac yn bwydo i mewn i’r grid a’n bod ni’n storio’r ynni yna mewn ffordd drefnus ac effeithiol yn y gogledd er budd busnesau a phobl sy’n byw yng ngogledd Cymru.

(Translation) I know that those negotiations are currently going on between Morlais and Menter Môn and the Government, but there are broader benefits here. That is what we are trying to emphasise: that there are economic and community advantages from a development such as Morlais and it could be the first of its type across north Wales. Our aim is to see a series of such schemes then developing, feeding into the grid so that we store that energy in an organised and effective way in north Wales for the benefit of businesses and people living in north Wales.

Ashley Rogers: I think the major difference between Swansea bay and Morlais is that Morlais is, effectively, a plug and play set-up for experimental technologies. The essence of generating the technology is to test with the developers. You have seven or eight developers, they pay their fee, they plug in. It’s like a caravan park and you plug in your caravan.

Energy and strike price is really important, but the idea is that you are proofing a technology. It is not there as a generator in itself to make profits. I think there are spin-out potentials where, if you are developing technology there, we can start manufacturing the technology that works in north Wales and exporting it. I don’t believe that is necessarily the case with tidal lagoons. We can put one technology in and take another one out and keep on changing, so that is a major difference between the two.

Q19            Jonathan Edwards: Mr Jones, mewn ateb blaenorol, wnaethoch chi sôn am borthladd Caergybi. Oes modd ymhelaethu ychydig ynglŷn â beth mae’r cynllun penodol fan hynny’n ei olygu?

(Translation) In a previous answer, Mr Jones, you talked about the port of Holyhead. Can you elaborate on the meaning of the specific scheme there?

Iwan Trefor Jones: Mae hwnna’n gynllun allweddol bwysig i ogledd Cymru. Y bwriad ydy gwella’r isadeiledd a gwella cyfleusterau yn yr harbwr ond hefyd yn ehangach ar draws Caergybi. Mae yna bartneriaeth efo Stena i ddatblygu’r cynllun yma. Maen nhw’n mynd i fuddsoddi rhwng £35 miliwn a £40 miliwn yn ddibynnol ar y cyllid o’r growth deal. Felly mae o’n ddatblygiad sydd yn mynd i roi’r cyfleusterau, yr adnoddau a’r gwasanaethau yn eu lle er mwyn datblygu Caergybi yn adwy i ogledd Cymru. Mae hynny mor allweddol o ran y cyswllt masnachol efo Iwerddon i’r dyfodol ac o ran yr hyn sy’n digwydd yn Lerpwl ar hyn o bryd–y buddsoddiad sy’n digwydd yn Lerpwl. Os ydyn ni eisiau sicrhau bod Caergybi yn cadw’r farchnad ac yn datblygu’r farchnad, mae’n rhaid i ni fuddsoddi yn y porthladd. Os ydyn ni eisiau gweld masnach yn digwydd efo Iwerddon yn y dyfodol, yn amlwg mae datblygiad yng Nghaergybi yn allweddol.

Mae’n un o’n prif gynlluniau ni, mae o yn y chwech uchaf o ran cynlluniau ac mae symud ar y cynllun yna’n sydyn yn allweddol bwysig. Y peth diwethaf rydyn ni eisiau ei weld ydy bod arian Stena’n cael ei dynnu’n ôl oherwydd oedi. Felly mae’n rhaid i ni weld momentwm y tu ôl i’r cynllun yna ac mae’n rhaid i ni sicrhau bod y gwariant yn digwydd o Ebrill 2020 ymlaen.

(Translation) That is a vital scheme for north Wales. The intention is to improve the infrastructure, improve the facilities in the harbour but also, more broadly, across Holyhead. There is a partnership with Stena to develop this scheme. They are going to invest between £35 million and £40 million, depending on the funding from the growth deal so it is a development that will provide the facilities, resources and services to develop Holyhead as a gateway for north Wales. That is vital in terms of the commercial connection with Ireland in the future and what is happening with the investment in Liverpool at the moment. If we want to ensure that Holyhead keeps and develops its market, we have got to invest in the port. If we want to see commerce and trade with Ireland happening in the future, clearly the development in Holyhead is vital to that.

That is one of our main plans—it’s one of the six highest of our plans. Moving on that plan is vital. The last thing we want to see is the Stena funding withdrawn because of delay, so we have to see momentum behind the scheme and ensure that the investment happens from April 2020 onwards.

Q20            Jonathan Edwards: I ba raddau, i fod yn wleidyddol, ydych chi’n pryderu am Brexit? Pe baech chi’n cael ffin economaidd i lawr môr yr Iwerydd, ac er mwyn cadw heddwch yn Iwerddon maen nhw’n sicrhau bod dim ffin rhwng Gogledd Iwerddon a’r Weriniaeth, y goblygiadau wedyn yw bod trafnidiaeth yn mynd lan drwy Iwerddon yn hytrach na dod ar draws fel mae e ar hyn o bryd. Ydy hwnna yn rhywbeth difrifol i bryderu amdano?

(Translation) To be political, to what extent are you concerned about Brexit? We might have an economic border down the Irish sea. To keep peace in Ireland, they may ensure that there is no border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. The implication then is that transport would go through Ireland instead of coming across as it does now. Is that a serious thing for us to be concerned about?

Councillor Siencyn: Mae’r holl drafodaethau ynglŷn â Brexit yn bryder. Mae rhywun yn ymwybodol o beth yw’r ffactorau sy’n effeithio ar Gaergybi. Yn y trafodaethau rydyn ni wedi eu cael–ac fe fues i mewn sesiwn herio ynglŷn â phorthladd Caergybi–dw i’n credu eu bod nhw’n gweld bod wir angen y buddsoddiad yma er mwyn amddiffyn Caergybi rhag sgil effeithiau’r ffin yn codi. Mi  fydd creu cyfleuster dŵr dwfn arall yn caniatáu i ni gael mwy o cruise liners i mewn. Hefyd, dw i’n cofio trafodaeth wrth basio bod modd creu digon o faes parcio i barcio loris tra’u bod nhw’n cael mynd yn araf trwy’r ffin. Wrth gwrs ei fod o’n ffactor ond dw i’n credu bod Stena’n awyddus i wneud y buddsoddiad er mwyn amddiffyn porthladd Caergybi a’u bod nhw’n ei weld o fel buddsoddiad ar gyfer y dyfodol. Dw i’m yn gwybod os ydy Ashley eisiau dweud rhywbeth.

(Translation) All discussions around Brexit are of concern. We are aware of the factors that impact on Holyhead. Interestingly, in our discussions—I was in a challenge session about the port of Holyhead—I think they see that there really is a need for this investment in order to defend Holyhead against the knock-on effects if that border issue arises. Creating another deep water facility would permit us to get more cruise liners in. I also remember a discussion somewhere, in passing, that it was possible to create enough parking to park lorries in while they pass slowly through the border in Holyhead. Of course Brexit is a factor, but Stena is keen to make the investment in order to defend the port of Holyhead, which they see as something for the future. I don’t know if Ashley wants to come in.

Ashley Rogers: Iwan talked initially about how the growth deal projects interrelate. This is a perfect example, because if we test Morlais technology with different developers, then start manufacturing on Anglesey and in Gwynedd, and if we are shipping from the port of Holyhead, we cannot do either of those without the growth deal funding. From a Stena point of view, it adds another arrow to their quiver, as it were—so from that point of view, it is absolutely essential. If the investment in the port was important before Brexit, it will be twice as important now.

Q21            Chair: Fel y “token Brexiteer” ar y Pwyllgor, well i mi ofyn cwestiwn arall. Gallech chi egluro’r holl broses o graffu neu sgrwtineiddio? Sut gallwch chi sicrhau bod y prosiectau yn rhoi gwerth am arian? Beth sy’n bwysig i fi, fel rhywun sydd wedi eistedd ar bwyllgorau i edrych ar graffu a gwerth am arian, ydy sut gallwch chi sicrhau bod y rhai sy’n gyfrifol am y prosiectau ddim yn cael unrhyw gysylltiad gyda’r rhai sy’n gyfrifol am graffu? Mae’n bwysig iawn i gadw’r gwahaniaeth rhwng y ddwy ochr.

(Translation) As the token Brexiteer on the Committee, I had better ask another question. Could you explain the scrutiny process to us? How can you ensure that the projects provide good value for money? That is important to me as someone who sat on Committees looking at scrutiny and value for money. How can you ensure that who is responsible for the projects has no connection to who is responsible for the scrutiny? It is important to keep a distance between the two.

Councillor Siencyn: Rydyn ni’n ymwybodol iawn o’r cwestiwn yna. Mae yna ddau fath o graffu fan hyn, yn does? Mae’r craffu mwyaf trylwyr, mae’n debyg, y craffu mwyaf technegol, yn dod gan y sector breifat trwy’r bwrdd cyflawni busnes sydd gennym ni, sydd â’i aelodaeth i gyd yn dod o’r sector breifat. Rydyn ni yn y broses, neu mi fyddwn ni’n cychwyn y broses cyn bo hir, o benodi cadeirydd trwy gydweithrediad gyda’r ddwy Lywodraeth fydd yn annibynnol o waith gweithredol y bwrdd uchelgais. Felly mae hwnna’n elfen bwysig iawn. Eu gwaith nhw fydd craffu ar ein gwaith ni a chynnig syniadau i ni. Dw i’n gobeithio y bydd y bwrdd yn gwneud hynny.

Dw i’n ymwybodol iawn fel gwleidydd fy mod i’n atebol nid yn unig i fy etholwyr ond i fy nghyd-aelodau yn ôl yn y cyngor. Mi alla i’ch sicrhau chi fod pob un arweinydd sydd gennym ni o gwmpas y bwrdd yn awyddus iawn i rannu cymaint o wybodaeth ag y gallan nhw gyda’u haelodau eu hunain.

Mi gyfeirioch chi gynnau at elfen cyfraniad llywodraeth leol. Dydy cyfraniad llywodraeth leol ddim gymaint mewn cyfalaf, ond mi fydd hi’n gyfrifoldeb ar ba bynnag gyngor fydd yn lletya gwaith y bwrdd uchelgais. Mi fydd yna gyfrifoldeb sylweddol mewn delio gyda’r arian ac mi fydd y llif arian yna’n bwysig iawn i ni.

Felly mae yna elfen o atebolrwydd democrataidd, ac fel aelodau etholedig rydyn ni’n ymwybodol iawn ohono fo. Rydyn ni’n gwybod bod rhaid i ni gael cefnogaeth ein haelodaeth gyffredin yn ein cynghorau i’n gwaith ni ar y bwrdd uchelgais yma. Un perygl o greu’r partneriaethau rhanbarthol ydy eich bod chi yn colli’r atebolrwydd yna i’ch etholwyr, ond dw i’n fwy nag ymwybodol ein bod ni angen sicrhau bod hwnna yn effeithiol. Ar hyn o bryd, o safbwynt y cynghorau, mae pob un cyngor yn craffu ei hun. Mae’n bosibl yn y dyfodol y gallen ni fod yn edrych ar drefn craffu ar y cyd, ond dydyn ni ddim wedi cyrraedd y pwynt yna eto.

(Translation) We are very aware of that question. There are two kinds of scrutiny here, aren’t there? There is the most thorough, technical scrutiny provided by the private sector through the business delivery board, the membership of which is entirely from the private sector. Before too long, we will start the process to appoint a chair, in collaboration with both Governments. That will be independent of the operational work of the ambition board. Scrutiny will be an important element—it will be the work of the business delivery board to scrutinise our work and to offer us ideas. I hope the board will do that.

As a politician, I am very aware that I am accountable not only to my electorate but to my fellow members back at the council. I can assure you that every leader we have around the table is eager to share as much information as they possibly can with their own members.

You referred earlier to the element of the contribution of local government. The contribution of local government will not be as great in capital terms, but whichever council hosts the work of the ambition board will have a significant responsibility in dealing with the funding, and the flow of money will be very important.

There is an element of democratic accountability that we are very aware of as elected members. We know that we have to be supported by our members from the councils in our work on the ambition board. One danger of creating these regional partnerships is that you lose the accountability to your local electorate, and I am more than aware that we need to ensure that that is effective. At the moment, each council scrutinises itself. We could possibly be looking at a joint scrutiny system in the future, but we have not got to that point yet.

Iwan Trefor Jones: O ran craffu, rydyn ni’n amlwg hefyd wedi edrych yn fanwl iawn ar adroddiad Abertawe, yr adroddiad sydd wedi cael ei gomisiynu gan Lywodraeth Prydain a Llywodraeth Cymru ar y gwersi i’w dysgu o brofiadau Abertawe. Un o’r prif argymhellion yn y fan yna ydy’r angen i graffu'r cynlluniau busnes cyn eu bod nhw’n dod yn gynlluniau busnes llawn. Rydyn ni wedi bod ar daith ynglŷn â hyn–yn do, Ashley?–i sicrhau bod pob un achos busnes amlinellol ar gyfer y prosiectau yn cael eu herio, yn cael eu craffu, yn enwedig gan y sector breifat. Mae yna sesiynau herio wedi bod ble rydyn ni wedi tynnu at ei gilydd gynrychiolwyr o’r sector breifat ar draws y gogledd, yn ôl y rhaglenni rydyn ni eisoes wedi cyfeirio atyn nhw. Hefyd, rydyn ni wedi sefydlu bwrdd sector breifat sydd wedi mynd drwy’r achosion busnes amlinellol.

(Translation) On scrutiny, we have also looked in great detail at the Swansea report and the report that has been commissioned by the UK and Welsh Governments on the lessons to learn from Swansea, and one of the main recommendations is the need to scrutinise the schemes prior to their becoming full business plans. We have been on a journey—we have toured this, haven’t we, Ashley?—to ensure that every outline business case for the projects is scrutinised and challenged, particularly by the private sector. There have been challenge sessions in which we have drawn together representatives from the private sector across north Wales, according to the programmes we have already referred to. We have also established a private sector board, which has gone through the outline business cases.

Q22            Chair: Os ydw i’n deall yn iawn, mae gyda chi fwrdd i sgrwtineiddio’r sector breifat. Beth am y sector gyhoeddus? Ydy’r bwrdd yn mynd i sgrwtineiddio nhw hefyd?

(Translation) If I understand you correctly, you have a board to scrutinise the private sector. What about the public sector? Will the board scrutinise them as well?

Iwan Trefor Jones: Mae’r bwrdd rydyn ni wedi’i sefydlu wedi bod yn weithredol ers tua blwyddyn bellach. Mae cyflogwyr gwahanol ar draws y gogledd wedi dod at ei gilydd fel aelodaeth ar gyfer y bwrdd sector breifat. Maen nhw wedi bod yn herio a chraffu'r achosion busnes amlinellol ar gyfer pob prosiect. Fyddan nhw hefyd yn craffu ac yn herio gwaith y bwrdd uchelgais, yn rhoi cyngor i’r bwrdd uchelgais, ond hefyd, os ydyn nhw’n teimlo’n gryf eu bod nhw eisiau herio maes penodol, eu bod nhw’n gwneud hynny ac yn adrodd ar y casgliadau i’r bwrdd uchelgais. Felly er eu bod nhw’n rhan o drefn llywodraethu’r bwrdd uchelgais, maen nhw’n perfformio rôl annibynnol ac ar wahân i’r bwrdd. Maen nhw yna i graffu, i herio, ond hefyd i gynghori’r bwrdd ynglŷn â’r ffordd ymlaen. Mae hwnna’n dod o lais cyflogwyr ar draws gogledd Cymru.

Hefyd, mae’r rôl mae cynghrair busnes gogledd Cymru yn chwarae, sydd yn dod â’r associations gwahanol at ei gilydd, fel y Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach, CBI gogledd Cymru, yr Institute of Directors. Mae Ashley yn gadeirydd cynghrair busnes gogledd Cymru. Mae’r cynghrair yma hefyd wedi bod yn herio, yn craffu'r prosiectau gwahanol, ac yn cynnig cefnogaeth a chyngor i’r bwrdd uchelgais, felly mae’n dod o ddau gyfeiriad gwahanol gennym ni yn y gogledd.

(Translation) The board we have established has been in operation for about a year now. Different employers from across north Wales have come together as members of this private sector board and they have been challenging and scrutinising the outline business cases for every project. They will also scrutinise and challenge the work of the ambition board. They will provide advice to the ambition board, but if they feel strongly that they want to challenge a specific area, they will do that and will report on their conclusions to the ambition board. Even though they are part of the governance set-up for the ambition board, they provide an independent and separate role to that of the board. They are there to scrutinise and challenge, but also to advise the board in relation to the way forward, and that comes from the voice of employers across north Wales.

There is also the role that the business alliance in north Wales plays. It brings the different associations together, such as the Federation of Small Businesses, the CBI for north Wales and the Institute of Directors. Ashley is the chair of that business alliance for north Wales. The alliance has also been challenging and scrutinising the different projects, and it has offered support and advice to the ambition board, so it comes from two different directions for us in north Wales.

Q23            Chair: To add a supplementary, is their role quite a formal scrutiny role then?

Ashley Rogers: Absolutely. We have been involved with the growth deal from the very beginning. We have had 12-plus business representative bodies as our members. We pull together the consensus view on the draft strategy. We have had six or seven different feedback and input sessions over a two and a half year period. Whereas we play a more, shall we say, overview role, the business delivery group is made up of sector experts. So when you are looking at a particular business case, in for example manufacturing, we have Airbus on that board and they can start to scrutinise the technical detail as well.

I think that your question, Chair, was perhaps initially about ensuring that there are declarations of interest when it comes to the private sector. We are not London. If we have experts in manufacturing, it is likely that they have an interest in the manufacturing projects. I think there is a governance arrangement in place for declaring an interest, and then you recuse yourself from the conversation.

Q24            Guto Bebb: To an extent, you have already touched on the question I was going to ask, on the involvement of the business community and the way in which the stakeholders forum has worked. I will ask the question in a different way: are you of the view that both Governments are now satisfied with the arrangements for private sector involvement, or do you think that they are still in danger of duplicating the structures that you have put together?

Ashley Rogers: There are probably two questions in there. Both Governments want private sector involvement in terms of direct investment. I think we have done a reasonably good job of pulling that together, but that is separate from the private sector in the region that is not investing. For example, with digital connectivity, a business in Dolgellau will not invest in the fibre network unless they choose to make a connection to the network we have put in place. There are two very different questions there.

I think we have done a pretty good job. If I can challenge the challengers back, I would like to see evidence of regions where they have done a better job. In terms of our governance arrangements, we were asked to set up the business delivery group, and we have done that. We were asked to include it in the governance, and we have done that. We have done everything that we have been asked to do. From that point of view, we are good to go.

Councillor Siencyn: Ga i jyst ychwanegu at y pwynt yna? Unwaith eto, un o fy rhwystredigaethau i ydy’n bod ni’n clywed negeseuon o gyfeiriadau anuniongyrchol, ac mae hwn yn un ohonyn nhw—bod yna awydd i greu rhyw fath o grŵp goruchwylio, dw i ddim yn siŵr iawn be fyddech chi’n ei alw fo, yn ychwanegol at yr hyn sydd gennym ni. Dw i ddim wedi clywed y neges yna’n uniongyrchol—dw i ddim wedi clywed unrhyw awgrym ohono fo—ond rydyn ni fel bwrdd yn gryf iawn ein barn nad oes angen dyblygu. Mi fyddai dyblygu o’r fath yn ddryswch ac yn ddianghenraid ac yn wastraff o adnoddau, ac rydyn ni wedi cyfleu’r farn yna’n gryf i’r mannau priodol.

(Translation) May I add to that point? Once again, one of my frustrations is that we hear indirect messages, and this is one of them—that there is a desire to create some kind of overview group, I’m not entirely sure what you would call it, in addition to what we have. I have not heard that message directly or any suggestion of it, but we as a board are very strongly of the view that duplication is unnecessary, and that it would be confusing and a waste of resources. We have conveyed that view strongly to the appropriate places.

Iwan Trefor Jones: Un peth, jyst i nodi yn y fan yna, Guto, ydy, wrth sefydlu’r business delivery board, ein bod ni wedi rhannu’r cylch gorchwyl efo’r ddwy Lywodraeth. Rydyn ni wedi gofyn am sylwadau'r ddwy Lywodraeth ar y cylch gorchwyl ac ar rôl y bwrdd. Rydyn ni wedi derbyn y sylwadau yna ac wedi ymgorffori’r sylwadau yna yn y cylch gorchwyl diwygiedig rŵan ar gyfer y bwrdd, felly mae’r bwrdd newydd yn adlewyrchu gofynion y ddwy Lywodraeth. Felly does yna ddim esgus, mewn ffordd, i ddweud bod o ddim yn adlewyrchu beth ydy gofynion y ddwy Lywodraeth. Fel dywedodd y cadeirydd, rydyn ni’n mynd i recriwtio cadeirydd ar gyfer y bwrdd, sydd yn mynd i fod yn ffigwr allweddol wedyn, yn amlwg, yn y gogledd. Mi fyddwn ni’n gwneud hynny ar y cyd efo Llywodraeth Prydain a Llywodraeth Cymru, felly mi fyddwn ni’n gweithio efo’r Gweinidogion perthnasol er mwyn penodi cadeirydd ar gyfer y bwrdd sydd yn mynd i fod yn ymwneud gyda’r sector breifat ar draws y gogledd. Felly mae’n dangos, gobeithio, yr awydd i weithio ar y cyd a chael perchenogaeth ar draws y ddwy Lywodraeth i’n bwriadau ni yn y cyfeiriad yma.

(Translation) One thing to note, Guto, is that in establishing the business delivery board, we have shared the remit with both Governments and have asked for their comments on the remit, the terms of reference and the role of the board. We have received those comments and we have incorporated them into the revised remit for the board. The new board does reflect the requirements of both Governments. Therefore, there is no excuse for saying that it does not reflect the requirements of both Governments. As the chair said, we will recruit a chair of the board, who will then be a key figure in north Wales. We will do that jointly with the UK Government and the Welsh Government. We will work with the relevant Ministers to appoint a chair of the board who will be involved in the private sector across north Wales. Hopefully, that shows the desire to work jointly and to take ownership across both Governments in that direction.

Q25            Guto Bebb: Dw i’n credu fod yr atebion yn adlewyrchu’r hyn mae rhywun yn ei glywed gan y Gweinidog newydd, a wnawn ni ei gadael hi ar hynny, dw i’n meddwl.

Y cwestiwn olaf sydd gen i ynghylch testun cynrychiolaeth grwpiau eraill o fewn y prosiect ydy: beth ydy perthynas y cynllun twf a Bwrdd Uchelgais Economaidd Gogledd Cymru efo prosiectau Mersey Dee Alliance a’r Mersey Dee Business Council? Sut mae’r rheiny yn cydweithio a pha mor gadarnhaol ydy’r berthynas honno?

(Translation) The responses reflect what we hear from the new Minister, and I will leave it there.

My final question on representation of other groups in the project is: what is the relationship between the growth deal and the North Wales Economic Ambition Board with the Mersey Dee Alliance and the North Wales and Mersey Dee Business Council? How do they collaborate, and how positive is that relationship?

Ashley Rogers: In terms of the business council, we are a board member of the ambition board. We will sign the heads of terms and sign up to the governance agreement. We have changed our constitution completely and have set up as a legal entity in order to do that, because of the partnership we have with the local authority. Our role is very clear: we are a member of the ambition board and we advise and act as a partner.

The Mersey Dee Alliance is a public sector partnership. I believe Flintshire and Wrexham are members there with Cheshire West and the Wirral, as well as the universities of Chester and Wrexham. That is a public sector cross-border body. The business council is a regional body that straddles the border as well. There is very clear water between the two, but with the same aims of supporting the region.

Councillor Siencyn: Ga i jyst ddod yn ôl at y pwynt yna? Mae realiti'r berthynas drawsffiniol yn amlwg i ni gyd, er mae yna rai yn pryderu ein bod ni’n rhoi gormod o bwyslais ar weithgaredd trawsffiniol, ond dyna ydy’r economi. Er enghraifft, mae’n debyg bod ein prosiectau niwclear yn mynd ar draws y ffin i fyny i ogledd Lloegr. Rydyn ni’n hyrwyddo’r cysylltiad yna ac mae o’n un pwysig. Y nuclear arc maen nhw’n ei alw fo, ac mae yna gysylltiadau yn tyfu ac yn datblygu rhyngom ni a’r diwydiant niwclear yng ngogledd-orllewin Lloegr. Mi fyddwn i’n ychwanegu, wrth gwrs, ac mae hon yn elfen dipyn bach mwy cynhennus, hwyrach: mi fyddwn i, fel un sy’n byw ym Meirionnydd, yn awyddus iawn i ddatblygu cysylltiadau llawer iawn nes gyda chynllun twf y canolbarth. Ond mae’n ymddangos ar hyn o bryd ein bod ni wedi’n heithrio o’r drafodaeth yna. Fel dw i wedi dweud sawl gwaith, â’m tafod yn y boch, dydy’r A55 ddim yn berthnasol i mi yn Nolgellau. Mae’r A470 yn sicr yn berthnasol, ac mae’r ffordd i’r dwyrain i gyfeiriad Wrecsam a’r Amwythig yn hynod o bwysig, ond am ryw reswm na fedra i ddeall, dydyn ni ddim yn cael bod yn rhan o’r drafodaeth ynglŷn â datblygu cynllun twf yn y canolbarth, sydd yn drueni.

(Translation) May I come back on that point? The reality of the cross-border relationship is clear to all of us, although some are concerned that we place too much emphasis on cross-border activity, but that’s the economy. Our nuclear projects, for example, cross the border up to the north of England, and we promote those important links. It is called the nuclear arc and there are growing connections and links developing between ourselves and the nuclear industry in north-west England. This is a little contentious, but I, as someone who lives in Meirionnydd, would be very keen to develop connections that are far closer, with the mid Wales growth deal, but at the moment it appears that we have been excluded from that discussion. As I have said several times, with tongue in cheek, the A55 is not relevant to me in Dolgellau. The A470 certainly is relevant to me, and the road in the eastern direction towards Wrexham and Shrewsbury is vital, but for some reason that I do not understand, we are not able to be part of the discussion around developing the growth deal in mid Wales, which is a shame.

Q26            Guto Bebb: Jyst ar y mater yna, sydd yn mynd ar drywydd ychydig bach yn wahanol, a mynd ar ôl y sgwarnog, mae’n deg i ddweud fod yna enghreifftiau o ardaloedd sydd mewn mwy nag un cynllun twf mewn rhannau eraill o Brydain, felly pwy sy’n awgrymu bod nhw ddim am i chi fod yn ymwneud â chynllun twf y canolbarth? Y cwestiwn dw i’n ofyn, yn y bôn, ydy ai o’r canolbarth mae hynny’n dod yntau ai un o’r partneriaid eraill yn y prosiect sydd yn awgrymu diffyg diddordeb?

(Translation) Just on that matter, which takes us in a different direction—chasing hares—there are examples of areas that are in more than one growth deal in other parts of Britain, so who suggests that they do not want you to be involved in the mid Wales growth deal? Essentially, I am asking whether that is coming from mid Wales or is it one of the other partners in the project that is suggesting a lack of interest?

Councillor Siencyn: Mae gen i berthynas hynod o dda gyda’r ddau arweinydd yn y canolbarth. Dw i’n cyd-gadeirio fforwm wledig gydag arweinydd Powys, ac wrth gwrs mae arweinydd Ceredigion yn rhan o bartneriaeth Arfor gyda ni, felly rydyn ni’n cydweithio’n gyson. Unwaith eto, does gen i ddim tystiolaeth uniongyrchol, ond fel dw i’n deall, cyngor o gyfeiriad Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol ydy o.

(Translation) I have a very good relationship with the two leaders in mid Wales. I jointly chair the rural forum with the leader of Powys, and of course the leader of Ceredigion is part of the Arfor partnership with us, so we collaborate regularly. Once again, I do not have direct evidence, but, as I understand it, it was a counsel from the UK Government.

Q27            Ben Lake: Ydw’n iawn i ddeall mai Gwynedd sydd wedi cael ei benodi i fod yn gyfrifol am weinyddu’r cynllun twf?

(Translation) Am I right in thinking that Gwynedd has been appointed to be responsible for administering the growth deal?

Councillor Siencyn: Ar hyn o bryd. Dw i’n siarad fel arweinydd Gwynedd rŵan. Cyngor Gwynedd sydd wedi ei ddewis i letya'r cynllun twf ar hyn o bryd. Mae’r penderfyniad pwy fydd yn lletya o flwyddyn nesaf ymlaen i’w ystyried. Mae o yn benderfyniad sylweddol iawn, ac mae’n swyddogion ni, ynghyd â thrysoryddion siroedd eraill y gogledd, wrthi’n gweithio ac yn paratoi ffeithiau i ni i’w cyflwyno i’r bwrdd maes o law. Beth fydd oblygiadau lletya cynllun o’r fath, nid yn unig o safbwynt ariannol – ac mi oedd yna bryder ynglŷn a fyddai’n rhaid i ni fenthyg arian oherwydd y ffordd y mae’r arian yn cael ei ddosbarthu. Hynny ydy, mae o’n gyfartal dros y 15 mlynedd. Yn naturiol, mae’n bosibl iawn y bydd y cynlluniau yn cael eu gwario yn ystod y pum mlynedd gyntaf, felly mae yna fwlch ariannol posibl yn y fan yna. Gallen ni fod yn gorfod addasu ein proffil ariannu fel ein bod ni’n amddiffyn pa bynnag gyngor sydd yn lletya rhag y risg yna o orfod benthyg, ac mae yna gost, wrth gwrs. Felly mae’n benderfyniad sylweddol iawn, iawn i’w wneud ac fel dw i’n dweud, mae’r gwaith o ystyried oblygiadau hynny wrthi’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd ac mi fydd y penderfyniad yn cael ei roi o flaen y bwrdd maes o law.

(Translation) At the moment, yes. I am now speaking as the leader of Gwynedd Council, which has been selected to host the growth deal at the moment. The decision as to who will host from next year onwards is to be considered. It is a significant decision and our officers, along with treasurers of other north Wales authorities, are currently working and preparing facts for us, to be submitted to the board in due course. As to what the implications of hosting such a scheme would be—there was a concern about whether we would need to borrow money because of the way in which funding is distributed. It is equal over the 15 years, and it is possible that the money would be spent during the first five years, so there is a possible financial gap there. We might have to adapt our financial profiling so that we can defend whichever council hosts from the risk of having to borrow, and there is a cost, of course. There is therefore a very substantial decision to be made. As I say, the work of considering the implications of that is currently ongoing, and the decision will be put before the board in due course.

Q28            Ben Lake: Felly, yn ogystal â’r gost ariannol neu’r perygl fod yna fwlch ariannol yn codi, faint o faich yw e ar ba bynnag gyngor geith y cyfrifoldeb o letya’r cynllun twf o flwyddyn nesaf ymlaen, yn nhermau staffio ac ati? Ydy e’n faich sylweddol?

(Translation) In addition to the financial cost, or the danger of there being a financial gap, how much of a burden in terms of staffing will it be on whichever council is given the responsibility of hosting the growth deal from next year onwards? Is that burden significant?

Councillor Siencyn: Ydy, mewn gwirionedd. Eto, dyna ydyn ni’n gweithio arno fo ar hyn o bryd, sef trio gweithio allan beth yw’r baich o safbwynt adnoddau—nid yn unig o ran arian, ond adnoddau dynol. Wrth gwrs, o ran yr arian, y gost yna, mi fydd yn rhaid cyflogi pobl yn benodol ar gyfer y cynllun twf. Mi fydd y gost yna eto i’w drafod, ond mae’n debyg y bydd yn cael ei ddosbarthu rhwng y gwahanol bartneriaid ar draws y gogledd. Mi allai fod yn gwestiwn anodd i ni, ond rydyn ni’n ymwybodol iawn ohono fo ac yn gweithio ar gael datrysiad iddo fo.

(Translation) Yes, it is. Again, that is what we are working on. We are trying to work out what the burden is in terms of resources—not only financial but human resources. People will have to be employed specifically for the growth deal. The cost—again, this is for discussion—will apparently be distributed among different partners across north Wales. It could be a difficult question for us, but we are very aware of it and we are working on finding a resolution to it.

Q29            Ben Lake: Dyma’r cwestiwn olaf sydd gen i. Fe wnaethoch chi grybwyll yn gynharach bod yr awdurdodau lleol gwahanol o wahanol liwiau gwleidyddol. A ydy hynny wedi achosi unrhyw broblemau neu heriau o ran dod ati i gydweithio i benderfynu a chytuno ar unrhyw un o’r cynlluniau? Ydy e wedi codi unrhyw broblemau neu heriau?

(Translation) This is my final question. You mentioned earlier that the different local authorities are of different political colours. Has that caused any problems in terms of coming together to collaborate, make decisions and agree on any of the schemes? Has it raised any problems or challenges?

Ashley Rogers: As an objective partner—I do not have any political affiliations—I would say that there have been no issues whatsoever. There are clearly differences in the way our economies work in the north-west and north-east in terms of how you balance a growth deal. We have had those discussions, but certainly I have not heard any political party’s name mentioned in any way, shape or form between the partners. I should say I am not employed by the local authorities.

Councillor Siencyn: Jyst i ychwanegu at hynna, mae unrhyw bartneriaeth, boed yn bartneriaeth mewn byd cyhoeddus neu’n bartneriaeth busnes, yn fater o fagu perthynas ac ymddiriedaeth yn ein gilydd. Dw i’n meddwl ein bod ni’n ffodus iawn ein bod ni wedi datblygu’r bartneriaeth yma yn bell cyn i’r cynllun twf ddod i’r amlwg. Mae yn cymryd amser i fagu ymddiriedaeth, yn sicr o safbwynt y chwe arweinydd. Mae gennym ni rai newydd rŵan. Mae hi bron iawn mor ansicr yn y gogledd yma ag ydy hi yn—na, dydy hi ddim. [Chwerthin.] Mae’n syndod ein bod ni fel chwe arweinydd o wahanol gefndiroedd—boed yn wleidyddol, boed yn ddiwylliannol—wedi gweld y budd i’r gogledd, ac mae’r neges yna’n gyson gennym ni. Nid peth plwyfol mo hwn. Rydyn ni angen gweithio gyda’n gilydd er lles ein pobl ni. Rydyn ni i gyd yn gweld bod yna gyfleon yn fan hyn i weithio ar draws y rhanbarth fel un.

Jyst ryw gyfeiriad bach gwleidyddol arall, fel arweinydd awdurdod lleol, mae hi’n frwydr gyson rhyngom ni a Llywodraeth Cymru ynglŷn â gwahanol fathau o bartneriaethau rydyn ni’n gorfod ymrwymo iddyn nhw. Mae’n debyg bod hon yn ddadl y dylwn i gyflwyno i Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Mae hwn yn wahanol, achos mae hwn yn bartneriaeth wirfoddol. Dw i’n gryf o’r farn y gall cynghorau benderfynu mewn modd aeddfed ar ba lefel mae gwneud y penderfyniadau mwyaf effeithiol. Rydyn ni wedi penderfynu fel chwe sir yn y gogledd bod mater datblygu’r economi yn fater y tu hwnt i’n ffiniau sirol ni. Bellach, yr unig ffordd y medrwn ni gael unrhyw fath o ddylanwad ystyrlon ydy trwy gydweithio fel chwe sir. Mae yna bethau eraill rydyn ni’n eu gwneud yn well ar lefel isranbarthol—mae Gwynedd a Môn, er enghraifft, yn gweithio’n agos iawn ar nifer o feysydd—ac mae yna bethau wrth gwrs rydyn ni’n eu gwneud yn llawer gwell fel cynghorau unigol.

(Translation) To add to that, any partnership, whether in the public arena or a business partnership, is a matter of nurturing a relationship and trusting each other. We are very fortunate that we developed this partnership long before the growth deal came to the fore. It does take time to develop trust, certainly in terms of the six leaders. We have some new leaders now. It is almost as uncertain in north Wales as it is in—no, it isn’t. [Laughter.] We are six leaders with different backgrounds, whether they are political or cultural, but we have seen the benefit for north Wales, and that message is consistent among us. This is not a parochial thing. We need to work together for the benefit of our people, and we all see that there are opportunities here to work across the region as one.

As a leader of a local authority, I will just make another quick political reference. There is a constant battle between ourselves and the Welsh Government about to the different kinds of partnerships that we have to commit to—perhaps I should take that argument to Assembly Members—but this is different, because this has been a voluntary partnership. I am strongly of the view that councils can decide in a mature manner at what level the most effective decisions are taken. As six counties in north Wales, we have decided that developing the economy is a matter that is beyond our county boundaries and borders, and the only way we can have any kind of meaningful influence is through collaborating as six counties. There are other things we perhaps do better at sub-regional level—Gwynedd and Môn, for example, work very closely in a number of areas—and of course there are things that we do far better as individual councils.

Q30            Chair: Mae aelodau o bob plaid ar y Pwyllgor hwn, ac i ffwrdd o’r camerâu mae pawb yn hapus iawn i gydweithio gyda’i gilydd.

Fe wnaethon ni ymweliad da iawn a diddorol y bore yma i fferm co-operative, Fferm Ifan, ond dywedodd un ohonyn nhw wrthyf i, yn ei farn ef, ei bod hi bron yn amhosib i fusnesau bach gael dylanwad dros bethau fel y cynllun twf. Gallech chi sicrhau bod y ffermwyr yma a busnesau bach eraill yn gallu cael ryw fath o ddylanwad dros y peth?

(Translation) This Committee has members from all parties, and, away from the cameras, everyone is very happy to collaborate and to work together.

This morning we had an interesting visit to a co-operative farm, Fferm Ifan, but one of the people there said to me that in his view it was almost impossible for small businesses to have any influence over things such as the growth deal. Can you assure us that those farmers and other small businesses can have an influence over such things?

Councillor Siencyn: Mi geith Ashley ddod i mewn, ond un o’r heriau mawr sydd gennym ni ydy cynnwys busnesau bach ac, yn wir, busnesau cymunedol—dw i’n cymryd bod hwn yn enghraifft o’r math yna o beth—a’r trydydd sector, a dweud y gwir, mewn penderfyniadau ar lefel strategol. Fel un oedd yn rhedeg busnes bach ei hun, doedd gen i ddim amser i fynd i gyfarfodydd hwnt ac yma i drafod pethau oedd ddim yn ymwneud yn uniongyrchol â fy musnes i. Yr her i ni ydy cyrraedd atyn nhw, a dw i’n gobeithio y byddwn ni fel bwrdd uchelgais yn gallu cynhyrchu’r elfen cymorth i fusnes yna, neu gyswllt busnes, sy’n effeithiol, yn lleol ac yn adnabod yr ardal ac yn adnabod ble mae’r busnesau bach yna i’w cael a bod y cyswllt yna yn un hawdd i’w gyrraedd. Mae’n rhaid iddo fod. Mae’n rhaid i fusnesau bach, boed yn Ysbyty Ifan neu yn Nolgellau, gael y pwynt galw cyntaf yna’n glir ac yn agos atyn nhw. Mae hwnna’n her i ni. Dw i’n meddwl ein bod ni’n ymwybodol o’r her yna ac yn gobeithio y medrwn ni gyfarch yr her yna—ar y cyd, wrth gwrs, mewn partneriaeth gyda Llywodraeth Cymru sydd yn trio gwneud yr un peth a dweud y gwir. Dw i’n gobeithio y medrwn ni ychwanegu gwerth at y gwaith yna. Ashley, o ran y pwynt busnes.

(Translation) Ashley can come in, but one of our big challenges is including small businesses and, indeed, community businesses—I take it that the farm was an example of that kind of thing—and the third sector, to be honest, in decisions taken at a strategic level. I used to run my own small businesses, and I did not have time to go to meetings here and there to discuss things that did not relate directly to my business. The challenge for us is to reach such businesses. I hope that we as an ambition board will be able to produce the support for business element, or the business link, so that it is effective and local—knowing the area and where those small businesses are to be found—and easy to reach and find, because it has to be. Small businesses, whether they be in Ysbyty Ifan or Dolgellau, have to be clear about that first point of contact and it has to be close to them. That is a challenge for us, and we are aware of it; we hope to meet and greet that challenge, in partnership of course with the Welsh Government, which is trying to do the same thing. We hope to add value to that work. Perhaps Ashley would like to come in on the business point.

Ashley Rogers: There are probably two areas where interacting with business comes in, the first of which is in the formulation of the deal and the build-up to where we are now, which is still not at business case stage. We do not have very finite detailed business cases, because they are not appropriate at this stage, but we have done a pretty good job of reaching out to businesses via their representative bodies. You have got to appreciate that there are 60,000 enterprises in north Wales. I would like to see any Assembly Member or any MP reach out to every single constituent—it is not physically possible—so the most logical and practical way to go is via the representative bodies. One of our key members is the FSB, which has 3,000 members in north Wales; North Wales Tourism has 1,500; and so on and so forth.

The second area, where we come to more detailed formulation and delivery, is about having dedicated and ongoing resource on the ground. That is where the work with the Welsh Government and the ambition board comes in. You have to have boots on the ground for your economic development teams, and that has to be centrally co-ordinated.

Iwan Trefor Jones: Jyst i ychwanegu’n sydyn, mae’r buddsoddiad rydyn ni’n gobeithio ein bod ni’n mynd i’w weld yng ngogledd Cymru yn mynd i fod yn sylweddol. Mae gennym ni waith i’w wneud er mwyn sicrhau bod busnesau bach yn elwa o’r buddsoddiad yna. Mae hwnna’n ymwneud efo’r ffordd rydyn ni’n caffael, y ffordd rydyn ni’n gosod contractau ac yn y blaen, a sut ydyn ni’n darnio’r cytundebau hynny i fyny fel bod busnesau bach yn gallu dod yn rhan o gonsortiwm er mwyn cadw’r gwariant a chadw’r budd yng ngogledd Cymru. Nid yn unig ydyn ni’n gobeithio bod busnesau bach yn teimlo’n rhan o ddylunio a datblygu’r cynllun twf, ond dylen nhw fod yn rhan o’r gwariant sy’n digwydd ar gefn y prosiectau sy’n mynd i ddod yn sgil y cynllun twf. Mae hwnna i fyny i ni i ddatblygu’r cynlluniau a’r trefniadau pwrcasu mewn ffordd sy’n cyd-fynd efo cymeriad economaidd gogledd Cymru, o ystyried bod 85% o fusnesau gogledd Cymru yn cyflogi llai na 10 o bobl.

(Translation) Just to quickly add, we hope to see significant investment in north Wales. We have work to do to ensure that small businesses benefit from that investment. That will relate to how we procure, set out contracts and so forth, and how we put those contracts together so that small businesses can become part of a consortium to keep the expenditure and its benefit in north Wales. We hope that small businesses feel as if they are not only part of the design and development of the growth deal, but part of the expenditure taking place, on the back of the projects that will come through because of the growth deal. It is up to us to develop the schemes and the purchasing arrangements in such a way as to tie in with the economic character of north Wales, bearing in mind that 85% of the businesses in north Wales employ fewer than 10 people.

Q31            Chair: Dw i’n cytuno bod hynny yn hynod o bwysig. Ga i jyst gloi drwy ddiolch i chi unwaith eto am ddod yma heddiw? Gobeithio y gallwn ni fel Pwyllgor weithio gyda chi i sicrhau bod y cynllun twf yn llwyddiannus.

(Translation) I am sure that we all agree that that is vital. I thank you once again for coming here this afternoon. I hope that we as a Committee can work with you to ensure that the growth deal is successful.

Councillor Siencyn: Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am wrando.

(Translation) Thank you very much for listening.

Ashley Rogers: May I add one point? In the brief for today, you talked about south Wales growth deals, what can be learned, and so on and so forth. From my point of view, very objectively, the growth deal is a great opportunity for regions to come together to gain investment and so on. The only thing missing from the entire process is to do with local authorities being asked to get together with partners. It has not been—how shall I put it—the most fluid of funding situations for local authorities across the UK for five to 10 years, same as everyone else, from an austerity point of view. When the Government—whether the Welsh Government or the UK Government—ask a region, “Would you like to put together a growth deal?”, or any other kind of deal, what would really help is some seed funding to do that. Economic development teams do not have excess resources. That could cut these entire processes in half, from a time point of view. Rather than taking two and a half years to develop, with £250,000 for each deal and £20 million across the UK, with £5 million—not a lot of money—you could save at least a year on each deal. That has got to be worth it. Treat it like a business.

Chair: I suspect we may have a recommendation there for the report.

Jonathan Edwards: Do you want to write the report? [Laughter.]

Chair: Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much.