Welsh Affairs Committee

Oral evidence: Wylfa Newydd nuclear power station, HC 1938

Tuesday 12 March 2019

Ordered by the House of Commons to be published on 12 March 2019.

Watch the meeting

Members present: David T. C. Davies (Chair); Tonia Antoniazzi; Guto Bebb; Jonathan Edwards; Susan Elan Jones; Ben Lake.

Albert Owen, a member of the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee, was also present.

Questions 117-153

Witnesses

I: Dr John Idris Jones, Chartered Physicist and Independent Consultant, Nick Kardahji, Research Officer, Prospect, Councillor Llinos Medi, Leader, Isle of Anglesey County Council, representing the North Wales Economic Ambition Board, and Dylan Williams, Head of Regulation and Economic Development, Isle of Anglesey County Council.

Written evidence from witnesses:

– [Add names of witnesses and hyperlink to submissions]

Examination of witnesses

Witnesses: Dr John Idris Jones, Nick Kardahji, Councillor Llinos Medi, and Dylan Williams.

Chair: Bore da, bawb. Ga i eich croesawu chi i’r Pwyllgor Materion Cymreig? Os oes unrhyw un eisiau translation facilities, they are available on channel 1 of the equipment.

Dw i eisiau diolch i bawb am deithio yma i drafod y sefyllfa yng ngogledd Cymru. Ga i ddechrau gydag Albert Owen? Mae’n rhaid i mi esbonio bod Albert wedi ymuno gyda’r Pwyllgor heddiw achos bod ganddo fo ddiddordeb mawr yn yr holl sefyllfa.

(Translation) Good morning, all. May I welcome everybody to the Welsh Affairs Committee? If anybody needs translation facilities, they are available on channel 1 of the equipment.

I would like to thank everybody for travelling here to discuss the situation in north Wales. May I begin with Albert Owen? I must explain that Albert has joined the Committee today because he has an interest in this situation.

Q117       Albert Owen: Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Bore da a chroeso i chi gyd yma i San Steffan ar ddiwrnod hanesyddol—mae bob dydd Mawrth yma yn hanesyddol.

John a Llinos, roeddech chi yma wythnos diwethaf. Dw i wedi siarad efo pawb ar y panel heblaw Nick am y pwynt yma o’r blaen, ond am y record, roedd y datganiad gan Hitachi yn glec fawr i ogledd Cymru ac i Sir Fôn ac i’r diwydiant a’r sector niwclear. Beth mae Cyngor Sir Ynys Môn yn ei wneud i helpu pobl sydd wedi colli eu gwaith a’r rhai oedd yn meddwl am weithio ar y prosiect yma neu’n hyfforddi i weithio ar y prosiect yma, ac hefyd y cwmnïau sydd yn y supply chain?

(Translation) Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I welcome you all to Westminster on a historic day—every Tuesday here is historic.

You were here last week, John and Llinos, and I have spoken previously about this point to everybody on the panel apart from Nick, but let me ask a question for the record. The statement made by Hitachi was a huge blow to north Wales and Anglesey and to the nuclear industry and sector. What is Isle of Anglesey County Council doing to help the people who have lost their jobs, who had considered working on the project or were training to work on it, and companies in the supply chain?

Dylan Williams: Bore da. Dw i am siarad yn Gymraeg os ydy hynny’n iawn. Dylan Williams ydw i o Gyngor Sir Ynys Môn.

Diolch i chi am y cwestiwn. Ers y datganiad siomedig, mae’r cyngor wedi bod yn cydweithio efo Llywodraeth Cymru a’r holl asiantaethau eraill sydd yn yr ardal—y ganolfan waith ac yn y blaen—ond, yn bwysicach, efo Horizon eu hunain. Y flaenoriaeth drwy’r grŵp tasg ydy trio cefnogi’r unigolion ac mae’r flaenoriaeth wedi bod ar y prentisiaid a sicrhau eu bod nhw’n parhau i gwblhau eu graddfeydd.

Rydyn ni wedi creu cynllun adfywio i’r gogledd ac mae’r cynllun yna’n mynd allan i ymgynghori yn eithaf buan o ran sut medrith pawb dynnu at ei gilydd a gobeithio trio cadw ffydd a chael ryw fath o gynllun gweithredu efo nifer o brosiectau yn ystod y bwlch yma—yn ystod yr oedi.

Rydyn ni’n eithaf hyderus bod pawb sydd yn colli swydd yn mynd i gael swydd arall. Yn anffodus, fydd rhaid i rai pobl adael yr ardal. Dyna sy’n siomedig. Y cwestiwn wedyn ydy ydyn nhw’n mynd ac yn trafeilio neu, yn waeth, ydyn nhw’n mynd ac yn mynd â’u teuluoedd efo nhw? Os ydy hynny’n digwydd, mae hynny wedyn yn cael effaith ar gymdeithas, ar ysgolion a bob dim arall. Wrth gwrs, yr hiraf ydy’r bwlch, y mwy annhebyg ydy hi y bydd yr unigolion yna’n dod yn ôl a chyfrannu’n economaidd ac yn gymdeithasol. 

(Translation) Good morning. I will be speaking in Welsh, if that is okay. I am Dylan Williams from Isle of Anglesey County Council.

Thank you very much for the question. Since the disappointing statement, the council has been working jointly with the Welsh Government and all the other agencies in the area—the jobcentre, for example—but more importantly with Horizon itself. The priority through the task group is to support the individuals. The priority has been on the apprentices and making sure that they are able to continue and complete their training.

We have put a regeneration plan together for north Wales. That plan is going out for consultation quite imminently to see how everybody can pull together, in the hope of keeping the faith and trying to get an action plan together with a number of projects during this gap—this pause period.

We are quite confident that everybody who will be losing their posts will get other jobs. Unfortunately, some people will have to leave the area, which is disappointing. The question is whether they will travel for work or go, taking their families with them. If that happened, it would have an impact on society, schools and everything else. Of course, the longer the gap continues, the more unlikely it is that those individuals will return and contribute economically and socially.

Q118       Albert Owen: O ran llenwi’r bwlch, rydyn ni wedi cael tystiolaeth gan Ken Skates, y Gweinidog dros yr Economi yng Nghymru a hefyd Alun Cairns, yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol. Rydyn ni wedi gofyn yr un cwestiwn iddyn nhw. Y cwestiwn ydy, sut ydych chi’n bwriadu llenwi’r bwlch? Ydych chi’n gweld, fel oedd Ken Skates yn ei ddweud, bod hwn yn gyfle i brosiectau eraill ddod i lenwi’r bwlch? Mae prosiectau ar yr agenda rwan ac mae Llywodraeth Cymru eisiau iddyn nhw ddod ymlaen yn fuan iawn. Ydy hwnna’n rhywbeth y mae’r grŵp tasg rydych chi’n aelod ohono wedi siarad amdano?

(Translation) We have heard evidence from Ken Skates as Economy Minister in Wales and from Alun Cairns as Secretary of State. We asked them the same question: how will we fill the gap? Ken Skates said that there is an opportunity for other projects to come along to fill in the gap. They are on the agenda now, and the Welsh Government wants them to come forward imminently. Is that something that the task group that you are a member of has spoken about?

Dylan Williams: Mae’r grŵp tasg ar hyn o bryd yn canolbwyntio ar y tymor byr—yr unigolion a’r busnesau. Mewn fforymau eraill, rydyn ni’n edrych ar y tymor canolig a’r tymor hir. Os ydyn ni’n meddwl bod y glass yn hanner llawn, mae gennym ni gyfnod rwan i baratoi pobl, busnesau a hefyd isadeiledd.

Os ydyn ni’n defnyddio’r seibiant yma i fuddsoddi mewn pobl, busnesau ac isadeiledd, mi fedrith yr ynys a’r rhanbarth fod mewn lle cryfach i fod yn manteisio mwy ar y prosiect pan mae o’n dechrau. Un enghraifft o hynny sydd o fewn y bid twf ydy porthladd Caergybi. Ar y funud, os byddai porthladd Caergybi eisiau bod yn rhan o’r prosiect, byddai’r gadwyn gyflenwi’n mynd yna ac yn gweld cynlluniau o beth fyddai’n gallu bod yno o ran isadeiledd. Os ydy bid twf Llywodraeth Cymru a Stena a phawb yn cydweithio i roi’r buddsoddiad i mewn, bydd y gadwyn gyflenwi’n medru dod yno a gweld beth sydd yno’n barod, felly mae’r risg o fod yn contractio efo Caergybi, er enghraifft, yn lleihau. Un enghraifft ydy hwnna.

(Translation) The task group is currently focusing on the short term and the individuals and businesses. In other forums, we are looking at the mid-term and the longer term. If we look at the glass being half full, we will now have a period of time to prepare people, businesses and infrastructure.

If we use this pause to invest in people, businesses and infrastructure, the island and the region will be in a stronger position to take advantage of the project when it starts. One example of that, within the growth bid, is the Holyhead port. Currently, if Holyhead port wanted to be part of the project, the supply chain would go there and see plans for what could be there in terms of infrastructure. If the Welsh Government’s growth bid, Stena and everybody else collaborate to put the investment in, the supply chain will be able to see what is there, so the risk of contracting for Holyhead, for example, will reduce. That is one example.

Councillor Llinos Medi: Yr her yma heddiw ydy mod i yma’n cynrychioli Bwrdd Uchelgais Economaidd Gogledd Cymru. Mae Dylan yn mynd i siarad ar ran y cyngor a dydyn ni ddim eisiau neud y dŵr yn fudr mewn ffordd ac eisiau i bawb ddeall ein rôl ni yma.

O ran y bid twf, dyna’n union ydy’n cais ni. Mae yna gais yna am arian ychwanegol i’r sector ynni yn yr ardal. Mae yna gynlluniau fel Minesto a Morlais ac yn y blaen, a beth gallwn ni ei wneud i ddod a’r rheiny ymlaen. Fel mae Dylan wedi ei ddweud yn barod, mae porthladd Caergybi yn un rydyn ni wedi cael cefnogaeth sector preifat gryf iddo fo ac rydyn ni eisiau pushio ymlaen efo hynny. Mae yna drafodaethau efo Llywodraeth Cymru ynglŷn â beth fedrwn ni ei wneud o ran safleoedd a dod a safleoedd ymlaen yn gynt a dod â diwydiant i mewn i safleoedd eraill. Felly, o ran y bid twf, dyna rydyn ni’n ei wneud. Mae gennym ni grŵp tasg yn ei le ynglŷn â gogledd Ynys Môn ac wedyn mae’r bid twf yn trio gwneud ei rôl yn rhanbarthol.

(Translation) I am here today to represent the North Wales Economic Ambition Board; Dylan will speak on behalf of the council. We didn’t want to muddy the waters, if you like, so that you could understand clearly our roles here today.

In terms of the growth bid, we have an application for further funds for the energy sector in the area. There are plans, such as Minesto and Morlais and so on, and what we can do to bring those forward. As Dylan has already said, we have had strong support from the private sector for Holyhead port, and we want to push ahead with that. We are having discussions with the Welsh Government about bringing sites forward more quickly, and bringing industry into the other sites. In terms of the growth bid, that is what we are doing. We have the task group in place for the north of Anglesey, and the growth bid is trying to undertake the same role regionally.

Q119       Albert Owen: Dw i’n deall nad ydyn ni eisiau cymysgu’r ddau ac fe fyddwn ni’n dod yn ôl at y growth bid yn fuan. Mae’r task group ar gyfer gogledd yr ynys gan fwyaf. Ydych chi’n cael cydweithio efo Llywodraeth Cymru? Fel oedd Ken Skates yn sôn, mae yna sawl prosiect sydd allan o’r growth bid y maen nhw eisiau dod ymlaen. Ydych chi wedi cael cyfle i siarad am rheiny ac am sut effaith positif y maen nhw am eu cael ar Sir Fôn?

(Translation) I understand that we don’t want to confuse the two things. We will come back to the growth bid soon. The task group is more for the north of the island. Are you collaborating with the Welsh Government? As Ken Skates stated, there are several projects out of the growth bid that they want to bring forward. Have you had the opportunity to speak about those and the positive impact that they are going to have on Anglesey?

Dylan Williams: Mae trafodaethau wedi digwydd. Mae’r commitment yna. Rydyn ni’n ymwybodol bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn edrych ar eu holl raglen gyfalaf yng ngogledd Cymru i weld sut y gall sequencing rhai o’r prosiectau yna gael ei newid i lenwi’r bwlch y mae penderfyniad Hitachi wedi ei greu. Yr ail layer wedyn ydy edrych ar y bid twf. Fe fedrith y sequence yn y fan honno gael ei newid fel bod rhai prosiectau’n digwydd yn gynt a phrosiectau eraill efallai’n cael eu cefnogi i fwy o ddyfnder fel bod mwy o weithgaredd yn cymryd lle ar Ynys Môn yn gynt yn hytrach na’n hwyrach yn y cynllun 10 mlynedd.

(Translation) Discussions have commenced, and the commitment is there. We are aware that the Welsh Government are looking at their entire capital programme for north Wales to see how the sequencing of some of these projects can be changed to fill the gap that the decision made by Hitachi has created. The second layer is looking at the growth bid and the sequence being changed there. Certain projects will happen earlier, and other projects might possibly be supported in greater depth so there is more activity taking place on Anglesey all year—sooner, rather than later, in the 10-year plan.

Q120       Albert Owen: Nick, some of the 400 workers who have been laid off will be members of your union. You have experience of this in the wider industry. For example, the Moorside project went down pretty early, and importantly there was a pause—that’s what the Secretary of State calls this—in the Hinkley project. How was that managed, and how different was it from this announcement by Hitachi? My understanding was that the supply chain was retained because there was certainty, or almost certainty, that there wouldn’t be a lengthy suspension. Is that your take on it?

Nick Kardahji: Yes, I think that is right. I am speaking English—apologies for that. In this case, given that we have no certainty about if or when the Hitachi project will be restarted, that obviously has implications for those individuals and skills. If this suspension continues for an extended period of time with no clarity, there is a real risk that those skills will be lost. The people will move out of the area or move into other industries. Obviously, there are other projects going on, including the Hinkley project, which you mentioned, and other major infrastructure projects around the country—HS2 and others. There is growing competition for specialist skills. To the extent to which we do not have certainty on projects like Hitachi, there is a real risk that those skills will be lost.

Q121       Albert Owen: When there was a suspension at Hinkley, was there help and support from Government at a UK level or local government? Is that something that could be used in other places to ensure there is not a mass exodus of skills from one project to another, given the competition for a relatively small skill base?

Nick Kardahji: I can’t speak in too much detail about the Hinkley case. I’m not familiar with a lot of the specifics there. I think there is a role for the Government to provide support and help in that respect, to ensure that those skills are retained and the local economy does not suffer as a result of the suspension, however long it lasts.

Q122       Guto Bebb: Ga i hefyd eich croesawu chi i lawr a diolch i chi am ddod. Yng nghyd-destun Wylfa a’r dylanwad a’r posibiliadau oedd yno i economi’r gogledd-orllewin,  rydyn ni’n ymwybodol bod Cyngor Môn wedi bod yn arwain ar y mater yma ers 10 mlynedd. Rydyn ni wrth gwrs yn gwerthfawrogi’r gwaith sy’n cael ei wneud gan Gyngor Môn. Mae hi’n bartneriaeth ar draws y gogledd ond yn enwedig felly yn y gogledd-orllewin ble mae’r tri chyngor wedi bod yn gweithio’n agos iawn ar y potensial i bobl ifanc. Un o’r pethau sy’n poeni nifer o aelodau’r Pwyllgor yma, ac wrth gwrs etholwyr yng ngogledd-orllewin Cymru, ydy’r effaith andwyol y gall hyn gael ar y bartneriaeth sy’n bodoli efo’r coleg addysg bellach, Coleg Llandrillo Menai, a’r cyfleoedd sy’n bodoli i brentisiaid ac yn y blaen. Yn ôl be dw i’n ei ddeall, mae 33 o brentisiaid yn gweithio i Horizon ar hyn o bryd. Cafwyd tystiolaeth gan Ken Skates yn awgrymu y byddai’r 33 o dan sylw yn gallu parhau efo’u hastudiaethau a pharhau i dderbyn cefnogaeth tra roedden nhw’n mynd trwy’r broses o gael eu dysgu. Ydy hynny dal yn wir?

A’r ail gwestiwn ydy, oes yna gyfleoedd i sicrhau bod yna gyfleoedd i’r prentisiaid yma gael swyddi yn y gogledd-orllewin mewn prosiectau eraill? Felly, ydy’r 33 yn saff am y tro, a’r ail gwestiwn ydy oes yna gyfleoedd iddyn nhw gael swyddi tymor hir yn y gogledd-orllewin tra’n disgwyl i benderfyniad mwy adeiladol ddod ar Wylfa maes o law?

(Translation) Thank you for coming. In the context of Wylfa and the possibilities in north-west Wales, of course we are aware that Anglesey County Council has led on this for the last 10 years, and we very much appreciate the work that it has done. Of course, it is a partnership across north Wales, and particularly in the north-west of Wales, where three councils have been working very closely on the potential for young people. One of the things that concerns a number of members of this Committee and the electors in north-west Wales is the detrimental impact that it will have on the partnerships with the further education college, Coleg Llandrillo Menai, and the opportunities for apprentices. I understand that there are 33 apprentices working for Horizon at the current time. Ken Skates said in evidence that those 33 would be able to continue with their studies and will continue to receive support while they go through the process of being taught. Is that still the case?

The second question is, are there opportunities for those apprentices to get to jobs in north-west Wales in other projects? Are the 33 safe for now, and are there opportunities for them to get jobs in the long term in north-west Wales in other projects? So, are the 33 safe for now, and are there opportunities for them to get jobs in the long term in north-west Wales while anticipating a more constructive decision to come on Wylfa in due course?

Dr John Idris Jones: Diolch am y cyfle i gael dod yma i siarad ger eich bron chi. Wrth siarad gyda Horizon a gyda rhai o’r prentisiaid, mae’n amlwg i mi fod yna gefnogaeth arbennig o dda gan gwmni Horizon a’u swyddogion yn lleol i’r prentisiaid. Mae’r 33 prentis wedi cael eu cynghori ynglŷn â’r posibiliadau o ran beth sydd o’u blaenau nhw ac maen nhw wedi cael sicrwydd y byddan nhw yn gallu aros. Mae’r rhai sydd heb gwblhau prentisiaeth neu sydd ddim ar fin cwblhau eu prentisiaeth wedi cael sicrwydd gan Horizon y bydd eu prentisiaeth nhw’n cael ei gwblhau. Mae Horizon mewn trafodaeth gyda chwmnïau gwahanol yn ogystal â gyda Grŵp Llandrillo ynglŷn â sicrhau bod hynny’n digwydd.

Roedd eich ail gwestiwn chi ynglŷn â chael swyddi yn ôl yng ngogledd-orllewin Cymru ar ddiwedd eu prentisiaeth. Dw i’n meddwl bod hynny’n anodd iawn i’w ateb. Ar gyfer y rheiny sydd yn eu blwyddyn gyntaf, pe bawn i’n optimist mi fyddwn i’n dweud y bydd Wylfa Newydd yn dechrau symud eto ymhen tair blynedd, a dw i’n credu yn yr hyn y mae Llywodraeth Llundain yn ei ddweud yn nhermau Papur Gwyn ac ati a’r angen am ynni carbon isel. Gan fod Wylfa’n safle da, dw i’n credu y bydd gwaith yn dechrau yno. Fodd bynnag, os ydy rhywun yn edrych ar y cyfleoedd, maen nhw’n brin iawn. Efallai bod yna gyfleoedd yn y Fali, efallai bod yna un neu ddau o gyfleoedd yn Stena. Un cwmni mae yna bosibilrwydd o gyfleoedd efo nhw ydy cwmni Magnox, y rheiny sydd yn rhedeg safleoedd datgomisiynu y Wylfa presennol a Thrawsfynydd. Mi fyddwn i’n awgrymu bod angen gwaith trafod gyda’r awdurdod datgomisiynu i weld sut gellid sicrhau bod rhai o’r prentisiaid yn cael cynnig cyfle gyda Magnox. Dw i’n gwybod bod hwn yn destun anodd ar hyn o bryd achos mae Magnox hefyd yn edrych tuag at leihau niferoedd eu staff. Ond os ydyn ni’n edrych ar bobl ifanc a chyfleoedd i bobl ifanc yn y diwydiant yma, dw i’n meddwl ei bod hi’n hollbwysig bod cyflogwyr, fel yr awdurdod datgomisiynu a chwmnïau mawrion yn y gadwyn gyflenwi, yn cymryd prentisiaid ymlaen.

(Translation) Thank you for the opportunity to come here to speak to you. In speaking to Horizon and some of the apprentices, it is clear to me that there is particularly good support from Horizon and their local offices for the apprentices. The 33 apprentices have been advised on the possibilities of what is ahead of them and they have been given an assurance that they will be able to stay. Those who have not completed their apprenticeships or who are not about to complete them have been given an assurance by Horizon that their apprenticeships will be completed. Horizon is in discussion with different companies, as well as with Grŵp Llandrillo, to ensure that that can happen.

Your second question was about getting jobs back in north-west Wales at the end of the apprenticeships. That is very difficult to answer. For those in their first year, if I were an optimist I would say that Wylfa Newydd will start to move again within three years, and I believe in what the Westminster Government say in terms of the White Paper and the need for low carbon energy. Given that Wylfa is a good site, I think work will be starting there. However, the opportunities are very scarce. There may be opportunities in Valley, and there may be one or two opportunities in Stena. A company that might have opportunities is Magnox—they are the people who run the decommissioning site for the current Wylfa and Trawsfynydd. I would suggest that there is a need for some discussion with the decommissioning authority to see how we could perhaps ensure that some of these apprentices have the offer of an opportunity with Magnox. I know that this is a difficult subject at the current time, because Magnox is also looking towards reducing the number of its staff. Looking at opportunities for young people in this industry, it is important that employers, like the decommissioning authority and the other major companies in the supply chain, take on apprentices.

Q123       Guto Bebb: Dw i’n credu bod y syniad o gael cyfleoedd o fewn Magnox yn rhywbeth sydd wedi cael ei godi efo’r Gweinidogion perthnasol. Rydw i’n meddwl bod hwnnw yn opsiwn y dylen ni i gyd fod yn ei ddilyn. Mae gen i ail gwestiwn ynghylch y cynllun twf i ogledd Cymru. Rydyn ni hefyd wedi trafod y posibilrwydd o flaenoriaethu rhai o’r cynlluniau o fewn y cynllun twf. Oes yna unrhyw gynlluniau o fewn y cynllun twf fyddai efallai’n gallu gwneud beth mae Dr John Idris Jones wedi ei awgrymu yng nghyd-destun Magnox? Oes yna gynlluniau yn y cynllun twf a fyddai’n gallu camu i’r adwy efo rhai o’r prentisiaid yma os bydden nhw’n cael eu blaenoriaethu’n gynt yn y broses?

(Translation) The idea of having opportunities within Magnox has been raised with the relevant Ministers. It is an option that we should all be following up on. On the north Wales growth deal, you have talked about prioritising some of the plans in the deal. Are there any plans in the growth deal that could do what Dr John Idris Jones has just suggested in the context of Magnox? Are there plans in the growth plan that could step into the breach for some of these apprentices if they were to be prioritised earlier in the process?

Councillor Llinos Medi: Mae’r cynllun o gwmpas ynni adnewyddol a chynllun Minesto a Morlais yn cynnig potensial mawr. Mae’n rhaid i ni gymryd bod y porthladd yn gynnig sydd ar y bwrdd o ran rhoi cyfleoedd yn fan yna hefyd. Mae’r rhain yn gyfleoedd ac mae yna awydd yn y rhanbarth ein bod ni’n blaenoriaethu’r rhai hynny fel eu bod nhw’n cael eu gyrru o Sir Fôn ymlaen. Mae hynny yn ei le’n barod.

(Translation) The plan around renewable energy and the Minesto and Morlais plan have great potential. We have to recognise that the port is an offer on the table as well, which should provide opportunities. They are opportunities, and the desire exists in the region for us to prioritise that so that they can be driven forward from Anglesey. That is already in place.

Q124       Guto Bebb: Jyst i gadarnhau: mae yna deimlad o fewn y bartneriaeth yng ngogledd Cymru felly bod yna gyfiawnhad i flaenoriaethu rhai prosiectau yn y maes ynni.

(Translation) Just to confirm: there is therefore a feeling within the partnership in north Wales that there is justification for prioritising certain projects in the energy field.

Councillor Llinos Medi: Oes. Mae penderfyniad wedi bod yn y cyfarfod brys gawson ni ein bod ni’n mynd i fod yn blaenoriaethu’r prosiectau oedd yn dod i Ynys Môn gyntaf oherwydd newyddion Wylfa Newydd. Mae’r blaenoriaethu’n digwydd yn sgil hynny.

(Translation) Yes, the decision was taken in our urgent meeting that we would be raising up the projects that were coming to Anglesey because of the news about Wylfa Newydd. The prioritisation is happening because of that.

Q125       Guto Bebb: Dyma fy nghwestiwn olaf. Beth yw’r adborth rydych chi wedi ei gael gan Lywodraeth Cymru ac yn wir gan Lywodraeth San Steffan i’r syniad yma o flaenoriaethu prosiectau penodol?

(Translation) This is my final question. What feedback have you had from the Welsh Government and the Westminster Government on this idea of prioritising some of the projects?

Councillor Llinos Medi: Mae yna ofyn ar y bwrdd. Rydyn ni’n gofyn i Lywodraeth San Steffan am £20 miliwn ychwanegol ac mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi dweud y byddan nhw’n matchio hynny. Mae’r gofyn ar y bwrdd. Beth sy’n bwysig i ni beidio â’i wneud ar hyn o bryd yw arafu proses y bid twf i lawr. Mae hwnnw’n andros o bwysig. Mae unrhyw arian ychwanegol yn gorfod bod yn arian ychwanegol a ddim yn ein harafu ni lawr. Wrth arafu i lawr, mi allen ni golli’r sector preifat, sydd yn barod i fynd ar rai o’r prosiectau yma. Mae’n rhaid i ni gael cyd-ddealltwriaeth. Mae gennym ni bartneriaeth dda ar draws y rhanbarth—mae chwe awdurdod yn gweithio’n wych efo’i gilydd ac mae’r colegau a’r prifysgolion yn gweithio’n dda efo’i gilydd. Rydyn ni eisiau gofyn yr un fath o’r ddwy Lywodraeth i allu gwneud yr un fath a rhoi arian ychwanegol ond peidio arafu proses y bid twf i lawr.

(Translation) There is an offer on the table. We are asking the Westminster Government for an additional £20 million, and the Welsh Government have said they will match that. The offer is on the table. What is important is that we do not slow down the process of the growth bid. It is really important that we do not do that, because any additional funding has to become added funding and not slow us down. By slowing down, we could lose the private sector, which is ready to go on some of these projects. We must have a collective understanding. We have a good partnership across the region—six authorities are working fantastically together, and the universities and colleges are also working well together. We want to ask the two Governments to do the same thing and put in additional funding but not slow down the process of the growth bid.

Dylan Williams: Un pwynt byr ar y prentisiaid. Ein dealltwriaeth anffurfiol ni ydy bod canran uchel ohonynt yn blaenoriaethu cwblhau eu hyfforddiant yn y diwydiant niwclear a’u bod nhw’n fodlon symud o’r ardal i gwblhau’r hyfforddiant yna, a bod hynna’n bwysicach na chael hyfforddiant yn lleol mewn diwydiant gwahanol. Yn anffodus, mae hynny’n creu bwlch a bod yna bobl ifanc yn gadael. Ond y gobaith ydy os nad ydy’r bwlch yn Wylfa’n rhy hir, y byddan nhw wedyn yn gallu dychwelyd ond i rolau’n uwch i fyny fydd yn rhoi mwy o gyflog a mwy o ddylanwad iddyn nhw am eu bod nhw wedi cael y profiad yn y diwydiant niwclear ac ar safleoedd niwclear.

Yn sydyn, o ran cwestiwn diwethaf Mr Owen, roedd yna beth oedd yn cael ei alw’n Hinkley deal yng Ngwlad yr Haf oedd yn paratoi’r ardal ar gyfer Hinkley Point. Os dw i’n cofio’n iawn, roedd y buddsoddiad yna mewn isadeiledd, busnesau a sgiliau ac roedd o’n benodol i baratoi’r ardal ar gyfer adeiladu’r atomfa.

(Translation) A brief point on the apprentices. Our informal understanding is that a higher percentage of them prioritise completing their training in the nuclear industry, and they are willing to move from the area in order to complete that training, and that that is more important than having training locally in a different industry. Unfortunately, that creates a gap, and young people will be leaving. If the gap in Wylfa is not too long, the hope is that they will then be able to return to more senior roles that provide them with more salary and influence, because they have had the experience of working in the nuclear industry and on nuclear sites.

On Mr Owen’s last question, there was what used to be called a Hinkley deal in Somerset that prepared the area for Hinkley Point. If I remember correctly, the investment there was in infrastructure, businesses and skills, and it was very specific, to prepare the area for building the nuclear power station.

Q126       Chair: I ddod yn ôl at hynny, dw i’n deall ei bod yn bwysig iawn cadw pobl yn yr ardal ond os na fyddai’n bosibl cynnig cyfleoedd yn y diwydiant niwclear ar gyfer y rhai sydd wedi cwblhau eu apprenticeships, pa mor hawdd fyddai cynnig cyfleoedd mewn diwydiannau eraill? Mae Nick Kardahji wedi siarad am HS2, er enghraifft. Dw i ddim yn gwybod ond fyddwn i ddim yn disgwyl bod gan y diwydiant niwclear gymaint â hynny’n gyffredin gyda’r diwydiant rheilffyrdd. Fydden i’n meddwl bod yr holl ddiwydiant niwclear yn specialist iawn ac efallai y bydd yn anodd iawn trosglwyddo’r sgiliau—efallai ddim.

(Translation) To come back to that, I understand that it is important to keep people in the area, but if it were not possible to offer opportunities in the nuclear industry for those who had completed apprenticeships, how easy would it be to offer opportunities in other industries? Nick Kardahji has spoken about HS2, for example. I do not know, but I would not expect the nuclear industry to have too much in common with the railways industry. I would imagine that the nuclear industry is very specialist and perhaps it would be very difficult to transfer skills—maybe not.

Dr John Idris Jones: Yn fy marn i, mae’r sgiliau sy’n ymwneud â niwclear yn arbennig efallai tua 5% o’r sgiliau sydd eu hangen ar gyfer gwaith adeiladu neu waith rhedeg gorsaf niwclear. Mae’r sgiliau eraill, er enghraifft y sgiliau ar gyfer gwaith adeiladu, yn sgiliau gweithio ar brosiect mawr a gwneud gwaith ar yr ochr fecanyddol, drydanol neu beth bynnag. Mae’r sgiliau yma’n rhai y gellir eu symud o un diwydiant i’r llall. Efallai bod angen ychydig bach yn ychwanegol ar gyfer y diwydiant neu’r cwmni yna a meddylfryd diogelwch arbennig, ond mae angen yr un fath o feddylfryd ar gyfer unrhyw brosiect safonol o safon uchel iawn. Rhaid i ni beidio gorbwysleisio sgiliau niwclear. Sgiliau ar gyfer gweithio yn y diwydiant ydyn nhw.

(Translation) In my view, the skills relating to nuclear in particular are perhaps about 5% of the skills that are required for construction work or running a nuclear power station. The other skills—for example, construction skills—are skills for working on a major project and doing work on the mechanical side of things, the electrical side of things or whatever. Those skills can be transferred from one industry to another. Perhaps there would be a need for a little bit in addition for the particular industry or company, and a particular safety mindset, but such a mindset is required for any standard high-quality project. We should not emphasise the nuclear skills too much. They are skills for working in the industry.

Q127       Albert Owen: Dw i jyst yn meddwl am bobl yn yr ardal, John. Roeddech chi’n sôn am y ffaith bod yna gyfle i’r rhai oedd yn gweithio yn y Fali—rydych chi’n sôn am BAE Systems fel cwmni sydd yn cymryd nhw am brofiad gwaith.

(Translation) With people in the area, John, you spoke about there being an opportunity for some of them to work in Valley—you are talking about BAE Systems I take it, as a company that takes them in for work experience.

Dr John Idris Jones: Ia. Mae yna sawl un yn gweithio yn y Fali—mae yna gwmnïau mawr yn gweithio yno. Mae BAE Systems yno ac mae Babcock International yno, felly mae yna gyfleoedd i’r rhai hynny fyddai’n dymuno aros yn Sir Fôn i gael profiad. Ond fel roedd Dylan yn ei ddweud, mae llawer o’r bobl ifanc yma eisiau profiadau mewn llefydd eraill. Maen nhw i’w canmol am feddwl mor eang ond y tric i ni ydy sicrhau ein bod ni’n medru cadw’r cyswllt yna i wneud yn siŵr eu bod nhw’n dod yn ôl pan mae eu hangen nhw.

(Translation) Yes. There are several people working in Valley. There are several big companies, such as BAE Systems and Babcock International, so there are opportunities for those who wish to stay in Anglesey to have that experience. As Dylan mentioned, however, many young people want experiences in other areas. They are to be praised for thinking so broad-mindedly, but the trick for us is to make sure that we are able to keep that link with them, to make sure that we get them back when we need them.

Q128       Ben Lake: Dr Jones, wnaethoch chi sôn ynghynt am y posibilrwydd y byddai gwaith ar Wylfa’n cael ei ailddechrau. Mr Williams, wnaethoch chi bwysleisio pa mor bwysig yw sicrhau nad oes bwlch yn y diwydiant fel petai fel bod modd denu unrhyw brentis sydd wedi yn bellach i ffwrdd yn ôl i’r ardal. Yn wir, daeth Gwen Parry-Jones gerbron y Pwyllgor yma a sôn yn blwmp ac yn blaen mai’r iaith sy’n cael ei defnyddio yw bod y datblygiad yma wedi ei rewi yn hytrach na wedi ei ganslo. Pa mor hyderus ydych chi fod hynny’n wir ac oes unrhyw drafodaethau neu sylwadau wedi bod sy’n gwneud i chi deimlo’n hyderus?

(Translation) Dr Jones, you spoke earlier about the possibility of work recommencing on Wylfa, and, Mr Williams, you said that it was important to make sure that there was no gap, so to speak, in the industry, to make sure that we could attract back any apprentices who may have moved away from the area. Gwen Parry-Jones, who appeared before the Committee, talked quite frankly about how the language being used is that the development has been frozen, rather than cancelled. How confident are you that that is the case? Have any discussions or comments taken place that make you feel confident that it has not been cancelled?

Dr John Idris Jones: I ddechrau, os ydyn ni’n edrych yn ôl yn hanesyddol, yn ôl yn 2010 fe ddaeth cwmni E.ON ac RWE i mewn i redeg Horizon. Yn 2012, mi wnaethon nhw benderfynu symud ymlaen a daeth Hitachi i mewn. Yn 2019, mae Hitachi wedi penderfynu nad ydyn nhw eisiau bod yn ddatblygwr. I mi, tri thro i Gymro, neu i Gymraes yn lle mae Gwen yn y cwestiwn. Mi welwn ni’r peth yn digwydd y trydydd gwaith.

Y rheswm pam dw i’n hyderus yn hyn o beth ydy dw i’n digwydd bod yn ddigon diniwed i gredu’r hyn y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ei ddweud ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd ynni carbon isel a’r angen am Bapur Gwyn lle bydd pwyslais ar ynni carbon isel a’r gwahanol ffynonellau sydd eu hangen ar gyfer hynny. Mi fyddwn i’n gobeithio, yn nhermau’r wyddoniaeth, y bydd ynni niwclear yn rhan o hynny—ynni niwclear mawr yn ogystal ag ynni niwclear bach, yn ogystal â beth sy’n cael ei alw’n ynni adnewyddol. Felly, bydd hynny’n bwysig.

Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi dweud eu bod nhw’n mynd i roi’r model ariannu, y RAB model, yn ei le. Os ydy’r ddau beth yna’n digwydd, dw i’n hyderus y bydd y datblygiad yn mynd yn ei flaen yn Wylfa. Beth sydd yn bwysig ydy cadw’r momentwm ar hyn i gyd–bod y gwaith roedden ni’n sôn amdano gynnau sef y buddsoddi yn yr isadeiledd, er enghraifft, yng Nghaergybi ac ati’n digwydd rwan. Fedrwn ni ddim disgwyl tan dair blynedd i lawr y lôn. Mae’n rhaid i ni fod yn barod am y datblygiad yma.

Mae safle Wylfa yn cael ei gyfrif fel un o’r safleoedd gorau yng ngorllewin Ewrop, os nad yn Ewrop, ar gyfer adeiladu atomfeydd niwclear. Mae’r dŵr yno, mae’r graig ac ati yno ac mae’r gefnogaeth leol mor gryf ac yn parhau’n gryf dros y datblygiad.

(Translation) To begin with, just­­ looking back historically, in 2010, E.ON and RWE came in to run Horizon, then in 2012, they decided to move on and Hitachi came in. In 2019, Hitachi have decided that they do not want to be the developer. For me, it is a case of three chances for a Welshman, or a Welshwoman in Gwen’s case, and perhaps this will happen the third time round.

The reason I am confident in that regard is that I happen to be naive enough to believe what the Government says about the importance of low-carbon energy and the need for a White Paper with an emphasis on low-carbon energy and the different sources required for that. In terms of the science, nuclear would be part of that—major nuclear as well as minor; small-scale nuclear as well as what is called renewable energy. That will be important.

The Government have said that they will put the funding model—wthe RAB model—in place. If those two things happen, I am confident that the development will proceed in Wylfa. It is important is to keep up the momentum on all this now, and that the work we were talking about earlier, in terms of investing in the infrastructure, for example, in Holyhead and so forth should happen now. We cannot wait three years. We have to be ready for that development.

The Wylfa site is counted as one of the best sites in western Europe, if not in the whole of Europe, for building nuclear power stations. The water is there, the rocks and so on iare there, and we have such strong local support, which continues to be strong, for the development.

Q129       Ben Lake: Rydych chi’n sôn am gyfnod o amser. Yn eich barn chi, yn nhermau dyfodol y safle ac hefyd y gefnogaeth leol, pa fath o ffenestr amser ydyn ni’n edrych arno? Bydden i’n tybio y byddech chi’n dweud, yn ddelfrydol, cyn gynted â phosib ond beth yw’r terfyn amser ar gyfer ailddechrau’r gwaith?

(Translation) You talk about the period of time. In your opinion, in terms of the future of the site but also of local support, what kind of window of time are we looking at? I imagine that you will say ideally as soon as possible, but what is the deadline for redeveloping?

Dr John Idris Jones: Y peth sydd yn gritigol yn hyn ydy pa mor gyflym y daw’r model ariannu, y RAB model, i mewn i fodoli. Fel dw i’n deall, mae’n rhaid iddo fynd drwy’r broses ddeddfu ac ati. Unwaith fydd hwnnw’n ei le, mi fyddwn i’n tybio y bydd y cwmnïau mawr yn dod ymlaen.

(Translation) The critical thing in this is how quickly the funding model—the RAB model—will come into existence. As I understand it, it has to go through a legislative process and so forth. Once that is in place, I would imagine that the major companies will come forward.

Councillor Llinos Medi: Mae angen cadw’r momentwm i fynd yn lleol ac mae’r bid twf yn cynnig hynny ac mae’r trafodaethau sy’n digwydd trwy’r grŵp tasg hefyd yn rhoi cynlluniau yn eu lle sy’n dangos ein bod ni’n mynd i fod yn cefnogi ynni lleol. Mae cadw’r momentwm yna’n hanfodol fel bod y gefnogaeth leol yn gweld bod yna botensial i wneud y safle’n weithredol yn fuan iawn.

(Translation) We need to maintain the momentum locally and the growth bid offers that, and the discussions that are ongoing through the task group also put plans in place that show that we support local energy. Keeping that momentum going is vital so that that local support can see that there is potential for the site to be operational very soon.

Q130       Ben Lake: Mae’n glir felly, cyn gynted â bod y model RAB yma’n cael ei gymeradwyo a’i osod mewn deddfwriaeth, dyna beth fydd y prif ddatblygiad fel petai ar y gorwel.

(Translation) You are clear therefore that as soon as the RAB model is approved and put in legislation, that will be the main development on the horizon?

Dr John Idris Jones: Dw i’n meddwl mai hwnna, a’r ffaith bod y Papur Gwyn yn sôn yn gadarnhaol am le ynni niwclear yn y gymysgfa o ynni carbon isel.

(Translation) I think it is that, and the fact that the White Paper talks positively about nuclear’s place in the mix of low carbon.

Q131       Jonathan Edwards: Mae hwnna’n dystiolaeth ddiddorol iawn. Roedd gan Hiroaki Nakanishi sylwadau diddorol iawn neithiwr yn Japan. Fe yw cadeirydd Hitachi wrth gwrs ac mae e hefyd yn gadeirydd Ffederasiwn Busnes Japan. Felly dydych chi ddim yn credu mai Hitachi neu gwmni o Japan fyddai’n dod i mewn i wneud hyn, ydych chi? Pa fath o gwmnïau eraill sydd gyda chi mewn golwg neu ydych chi’n sôn am y Llywodraeth Brydeinig yn ariannu hyn yn uniongyrchol eu hunan—un ai’n uniongyrchol neu gyda chwmni lled braich?

(Translation) That is very interesting evidence. Hiroaki Nakanishi made interesting comments in Japan last night. He is, of course, the chair of Hitachi and he also chairs Japan Business Federation. You don’t believe that Hitachi or another Japanese company will do this? What kind of other companies do you have in mind, or are you thinking about the UK Government funding this—either directly or through an arm’s length company?

Dr John Idris Jones: Yn fy marn bersonol i, fyddwn i wrth fy modd yn gweld y CEGB yn dod yn ôl ac yn gwneud y math yna o beth ond dyna ni. Hanes ydy hynna! A bod yn ymarferol, mae Hitachi wedi dweud nad ydyn nhw eisiau bod yn ddatblygwr safle. Maen nhw eisiau sicrhau eu bod nhw’n gallu cynnig y reactors ac ati ar gyfer pwy bynnag fydd yn datblygu’r safle. Petai’r RAB model ac ati i gyd yn dod i’w le, alla i weld sefyllfa ble byddai consortiwm o gwmnïau’n dod at ei gilydd ac efallai y byddai Hitachi’n rhan o’r consortiwm. Barn bersonol ydy hyn. Ond mi fyddai hwnna’n endid ar gyfer datblygu a fyddai o bosib yn gallu defnyddio technoleg Hitachi.

Os na fyddai hynny’n digwydd, mi allwn i weld y byddai gan ddatblygwyr eraill sy’n datblygu pwerdai niwclear yng ngwledydd Prydain ddiddordeb yn y safle, er enghraifft, EDF. Yn y gorffennol, mi fuon nhw’n berchnogion ar rywfaint o’r tir ond fe orfodwyd nhw i werthu’r tir a dyna pryd ddaru Horizon brynu’r tir yn Wylfa yn ôl yn 2009. Felly mae yna gwmnïau eraill.

(Translation) Personally, I would love to see the CEGB come back and do that kind of thing, but there you go—that is history. To be practical, Hitachi has said that it does not want to be the site developer. It wants to ensure that it can offer the reactors and so forth for whoever will develop the site. If the RAB model and so on all fell into place, I could see a situation whereby a consortium of companies came together and perhaps Hitachi would be part of that consortium. That is just my personal opinion. That then would be an entity for development, which could possibly use Hitachi technology.

If that did not happen, other developers who develop nuclear power stations in the rest of Britain might be interested in the site—for example, EDF. In the past, it owned some of the land, but it was forced to sell it, and that was when Horizon bought the land in Wylfa back in 2009. So there are other companies.

Nick Kardahji: I just wanted to add that I absolutely agree with what Dr Jones was saying. I think the key thing is going to be a clear, unequivocal message from central Government that they are committed to the future of nuclear. That is what is going to get projects like Wylfa over the line. To the extent that there isn't that certainty right now for investors, that is holding back these projects. That needs to change.

Q132       Albert Owen: To add to that, what do they have to do to give that commitment? Dr Jones talked about the RAB model being a model available for large projects, including nuclear. Is that sufficient or is there a process whereby they have to do the underwriting for some of those large projects—that the model itself might be flawed and there has to be that safety net to attract some of the large investors, either through a consortium or as individual companies?

Nick Kardahji: I think the RAB model could be a way forward for these projects. It hasn’t been attempted with a project of this size and scale, so it would be very important to ensure that the right regulatory oversight is there and that the proper mechanisms are in place to ensure that costs are being properly managed and so forth. But I think it is a model that could give investors the certainty that they need to put their money into a project like this and to get the project over the line.

We have seen the model used successfully in the Thames Tideway project. This is obviously a project of a different type, but that gives us hope that, with the right model, it could work.

Q133       Albert Owen: I have just one final point. You have been consulted on the sector deal. Would you expect to be consulted on the White Paper, and what positive things would you put to the Government for this model to work, which are not available now?

Nick Kardahji: We would certainly like to be consulted on it. One of the key messages we would want to put forward is the need for the energy workforce—the nuclear workforce—to be given a strong voice throughout this process and for their concerns and interests to be properly represented. That is something we have not seen so far, in general, in—

Q134       Albert Owen: But you are supportive of the sector deal?

Nick Kardahji: Absolutely, yes.

Dylan Williams: Jyst i ychwanegu yn sydyn at beth sydd wedi cael ei ddweud. Pan ydych chi’n edrych ar hyn yn strategol, y polisi ynni i Brydain a’r Papur Gwyn ydy’r peth cyntaf. Yr ail wedyn ydy’r model ariannu. Mae’r synau a’r cyfeiriad yn bositif yn fan yna. Lle mae’r marc cwestiwn ydy pwy ydy’r datblygwr a lle mae’r Llywodraeth yn eistedd o ran y datblygwr. Tu fewn i’r dent neu tu allan i’r dent. Mae OpCo neu Operating Company yn air arall. Mae gennym ni’r NDA­—y Nuclear Decommissioning Authority. Pam ddim NGA—nuclear generating authority? Dyna ydy’r trydydd cwestiwn.

Mae’n rhaid i’r broses yma a’r Papur Gwyn symud ar yr un amser. Does dim pwynt cael Papur Gwyn yn edrych ar y polisi ac wedyn proses yn edrych ar y RAB ac wedyn dechrau edrych ar y consortiwm a lle mae’r Llywodraeth. Mae’n rhaid i bob dim ddigwydd ar yr un amser er mwyn i’r datblygiad ddechrau mewn dwy neu dair blynedd yn hytrach na chwech, saith, wyth, naw mlynedd i lawr y lein. Bydd hyn yn rhoi sicrwydd, fel dywedodd Dr Jones, i’r consortia ddod at ei gilydd, ac i’r cwmnïau mawr.

(Translation) Just to quickly add to what has been said, when you look at this strategically, the first thing is the energy policy for Britain and the White Paper on that. The second thing is the funding model, and the noises and the direction are positive there. The question mark lies with who the developer is and where the Government sit in terms of the developer, in or outside the tent. OpCo or Operating Company is another term. We have NDA, the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority, so why not NGA, a nuclear generating authority? That is the third question.

The process and the White Paper need to move at the same time. There is no point having a White Paper looking at the policy, then a process looking at the RAB and then starting to look at the consortium or where the Government are. Everything must happen at the same time in order for the development to start in two or three years, rather than six, seven, eight, nine years down the line. That would give assurance, as Dr Jones said, for the consortia to come together, and to the major companies.

Q135       Guto Bebb: Ar y pwynt yna, gallai hynny fod yr un mor wir am y posibilrwydd o orsaf SMR yn rhywle fel Trawsfynydd, yn gallai? Mae angen i’r Papur Gwyn gyd-fynd efo edrych yn greadigol ar sut mae posib cael y math yna o ddatblygiad. Mae’r hyn rydych chi’n ei ddweud am ail-ariannu neu ail-gyllido cynllun megis Wylfa Newydd yr un mor wir am y sector deal ar gyfer SMR yn rhywle fel Trawsfynydd. Fyddech chi’n cytuno?

(Translation) Just on that point, that could be just as true for the possibility of an SMR station in somewhere like Trawsfynydd. There is a need for the White Paper to tie in with looking creatively at how to get that kind of development. What you are saying about refunding or putting extra money into Wylfa Newydd is just as true as for the sector deal for SMR in somewhere like Trawsfynydd. Would you agree?

Dr John Idris Jones: Fyddwn i’n cytuno’n llwyr â hynny. Fel dw i’n deall, rhan o’r RAB model ydy penderfynu pwy sydd yn dal pa risg yn nhermau’r datblygiad. Mae’r un fath o risgs mewn cysylltiad ag adweithydd bach ag sydd gydag adweithydd mawr. Efallai nad ydyn nhw ar yr un graddau yn nhermau risgiau ariannol ond maen nhw’n dal yn mynd i fod yna. Mae unrhyw un sy’n benthyg arian eisiau sicrwydd bod eu pres nhw’n saff a’u bod nhw’n mynd i gael return ar yr arian yna.

(Translation) I totally agree. Part of the RAB model, as I understand it, is determining who holds which risk in terms of the development. The same kind of risks in relation to a small reactor apply in relation to a large reactor. They might not be on the same scale in terms of financial risks, but they will still exist and anyone who lends money wants assurance that their money is safe and they will get a return on it.

Q136       Guto Bebb: Jyst i’ch llusgo chi’n ôl, dw i eisiau gofyn cwpwl o gwestiynau eraill i’r Cynghorydd Llinos Medi ynghylch y cynllun twf. Yn naturiol, mae yna gwestiynau wedi cael eu codi yn y wasg ynghylch effaith y penderfyniad i ohirio datblygu Wylfa Newydd ar y cynllun twf. Dw i’n credu ein bod ni wedi cael digon o dystiolaeth sy’n awgrymu bod y cynlluniau unigol o fewn y cynllun twf yn sefyll ar eu traed eu hunain. Ond rydyn ni wedi clywed gan Ken Skates, y Gweinidog yn Llywodraeth Cymru, a hefyd gan Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, bod yna gwestiynau’n codi o ran safon rhai o’r prosiectau yn hytrach na’r angen am arian ychwanegol.

Rydyn ni wedi cyffwrdd â’r angen i wthio rhai o’r prosiectau’n uwch i fyny’r agenda. Ond o ran yr adolygiad yma sydd wedi cael ei awgrymu gan Ken Skates fel proses sy’n mynd rhagddi yng ngogledd Cymru, ydy’r adolygiad hwnnw’n mynd rhagddo a phryd ydyn ni’n disgwyl cael canlyniadau’r math yna o adolygiad? Yn wir, ydych chi’n derbyn bod angen adolygu’r rhaglen waith?

(Translation) To drag you back a little, I want to ask Councillor Llinos Medi a couple more questions in relation to the growth deal. Naturally, questions have been raised in the press about the impact of the decision to suspend Wylfa Newydd on the growth bid, and we have had plenty of evidence to suggest that the individual plans within the growth deal will stand on their own feet. However, we have heard from Ken Skates, the Minister in the Welsh Government, and from the Secretary of State for Wales that questions arise about the standard of some of the projects rather than the need for additional funding.

We have touched on the need to push some of the projects higher up the agenda, but in terms of the review that has been suggested by Ken Skates, as a process that is ongoing in north Wales, is that review happening and when do we expect to hear the outcome of it? Indeed, do you accept that there is a need to review the programme of work?

Councillor Llinos Medi: Mae yna drafodaeth wedi bod ac fe fuodd yna weithdy cyn y Nadolig efo Llywodraeth Cymru ynglŷn â’r cynlluniau a’r prosiectau. Dw i’n cymryd o’r gweithdy yna bod yna fodlonrwydd yna.

Mae yna fwy o gwestiynu wedi bod o’r sector preifat o ran y cynlluniau eu hun. Bellach, rydyn ni wedi cael tystiolaeth gan y sector preifat bod yna gefnogaeth iddyn nhw. Dw i ddim yn siŵr iawn ydy’r cynlluniau’n barod i fynd. Mae yna rai sydd angen mwy o waith ac mae’r gwaith yna’n mynd rhagddo ond os byddai penderfyniad ariannol yn digwydd fory, mae yna rai yn barod i gychwyn hefyd.

Mae angen sicrhau bod yna ddealltwriaeth aeddfed rhyngom ni. Ro’n i’n dweud bod yna berthynas dda yn y rhanbarth. Rydyn ni angen perthynas dda rhwng y ddwy Lywodraeth rwan efo digon o hyder ynom ni fel rhanbarth i allu delifro ar rai o’r rhain. Rydyn ni angen ryw fath o broses. Mae yna ambell i gynllun fydd yn barod i fynd unwaith bydd yr heads of terms wedi eu harwyddo.

Mae’r gwaith yn mynd rhagddo. Mae yna gytundeb ar draws y rhanbarth eu bod nhw’n gynlluniau rydyn ni’n gweld budd iddyn nhw yn y rhanbarth. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn fodlon efo rhai ac yn cwestiynu rhai—yr un fath ag y mae Llywodraeth San Steffan. Mae’r broses yna yn digwydd. Dw i’n hyderus iawn ein bod ni wedi cymryd cam mawr ymlaen yn y broses yna. Gobeithio rwan y medrwn ni gael y drafodaeth aeddfed yna i roi ychydig o hyder yn y rhanbarth.

(Translation) The discussion has been going on. There was a workshop before Christmas with the Welsh Government about the plans and the projects. I take it from that workshop that there was satisfaction there.

There have been more questions from the private sector about the plans themselves. Now we have had evidence from the private sector that there is support for them. I am not entirely sure whether the plans are ready to go. There are some that have more work to do on them, and that work is ongoing, but if a financial decision were made tomorrow, some are ready to go.

We need to ensure that there is a mature understanding between us. I said there was a good relationship in the region; we now need a good relationship between the two Governments, with plenty of confidence in us as a region to be able to deliver some of these. We need is some kind of process. Some plans are ready to go in once the heads of terms have been signed.

The work is ongoing. There is agreement across the region that the plans are beneficial for the region. The Welsh Government are satisfied with some and are questioning others—it is the same with the Westminster Government. So that process is happening. I am very confident that we have taken a major step forward in that process. Hopefully, we can just have that mature discussion to put some confidence into the region.

Q137       Guto Bebb: I fod yn hollol onest efo chi, dw i’n cydymdeimlo’n fawr efo’r hyn rydych chi newydd ei ddweud. Ond roedd y dystiolaeth a gafwyd gan Ken Skates, ac rydyn ni wedi cael sylwadau tebyg o Swyddfa Cymru, yn awgrymu bod yna fwy o amheuaeth yn y ddwy Lywodraeth efallai na sy’n bodoli o fewn y grŵp yng ngogledd Cymru. Union sylwadau Ken Skates oedd bod angen adolygu’r prosiectau yma. Roeddech chi’n sôn am broses cyn y Nadolig. Wrth gwrs, roedd y dystiolaeth a gafwyd gan Ken Skates lai na thair wythnos yn ôl.

Y cwestiwn dw i’n ei ofyn felly ydy oes yna broses adolygu’n mynd ymlaen ar y pwynt yma neu ydych chi’n teimlo bod y broses yna wedi cael ei gwneud a’ch bod chi’n barod i fynd ond eich bod chi angen i’r ddwy Lywodraeth gamu i’r bwlch?

(Translation) To be totally honest with you, I am very sympathetic to what you have just said, but the evidence we had from Ken Skates—indeed, we have heard similar comments from the Wales Office—suggests that there is more doubt within the two Governments than perhaps exists in the group in north Wales. The exact comments made by Ken Skates were that there was a need to review these projects. You talked about the process before Christmas, but of course the evidence we had from Ken Skates was less than three weeks ago.

So the question I ask again is: is there a review process happening at this point or do you feel that that process has been undertaken, that you are ready to go and that you need the two Governments to step in?

Councillor Llinos Medi: O’r broses adolygu sydd wedi bod yn dilyn penderfyniad Wylfa Newydd, dyna pam bod yna ofyniad wedi dod rwan am arian ychwanegol. Mae hwnnw wedi digwydd yn dilyn penderfyniad Wylfa Newydd. Wnes i ddweud ar y cychwyn bod yna ofyn am fwy o arian ar gyfer yr un ynni yn y rhanbarth gan Lywodraeth San Steffan. Rydyn ni wedi codi’r un prems, yr un tiroedd ac yn y blaen, ble rydyn ni’n gallu uchafu defnydd o safleoedd sy’n barod i fynd yn y rhanbarth. Felly mae hynny wedi digwydd yn dilyn y broses.

(Translation) From the review process that followed the Wylfa Newydd decision, that is why the additional funding has been requested. That happened following the decision on Wylfa Newydd. I said at the beginning. about the request for additional money from Westminster for energy in the region. We raised the same prems, the same land, so we can increase the use of sites that are ready to go in the region. That happened following the process.

Q138       Guto Bebb: Dw i’n deall ble ydych chi rwan. Felly'r cwestiwn olaf ydy pryd ydych chi’n disgwyl ymateb gan y ddwy Lywodraeth os ydych chi’n teimlo’n hyderus?

(Translation) I understand where you are now. My last question therefore is: when do you expect to have a response from the two Governments, if you feel confident?

Councillor Llinos Medi: Mae’r bwrdd yn cyfarfod ddydd Gwener i gadarnhau’r gofyniad. Rydyn ni wedi cwrdd yn anffurfiol ddydd Gwener diwetha’.  Mae’r papurau’n mynd i’r bwrdd ddydd Gwener yma i ofyn am eu cytundeb nhw. Alla i ddim gweld pam na fyddai’n mynd ymlaen. Mae’n broses o gydweithio ac mae hynny’n cael ei ffurfioli ddydd Gwener.

(Translation) The board is meeting on Friday to confirm the requirement. We met informally last Friday, so the papers will go to the board this Friday. I don’t see why it can’t happen. It is a process of collaboration. We are formalising that on Friday.

Q139       Albert Owen: Jyst ar y pwynt yna, ydy’r bwrdd wedi cysylltu efo’r Llywodraeth Brydeinig?

(Translation) On that point, has the board contacted the UK Government?

Councillor Llinos Medi: Mae’r sgyrsiau yma’n digwydd drwy’r adeg.

(Translation) These conversations are happening all the time.

Q140       Albert Owen: Ac maen nhw’n dal i fynd ymlaen ers datganiad Hitachi?

(Translation) So they are still ongoing since the Hitachi statement?

Councillor Llinos Medi: Ydyn. Rydyn ni yn creu perthynas o gydweithio. Mae hynny’n hanfodol yn fan hyn.

(Translation) Yes. We are creating a collaborative relationship. That is essential.

Q141       Albert Owen: Ar ba lefel o’r Llywodraeth Brydeinig? Y Gweinidog?

(Translation) At what level within the UK Government? Ministerial level?

Councillor Llinos Medi: Ar hyn o bryd mae Swyddfa Cymru’n trafod efo Iwan Trefor, ein swyddog ni. Mae’r trafodaethau’n mynd rhagddynt o beth dw i’n ddeall. Dw i ddim wedi cael unrhyw dystiolaeth nad ydyn nhw.

(Translation) At present, the Wales Office are in discussions with Iwan Trefor, who is our officer, so the discussions are going on, from what I understand. I have not heard any evidence that they are not ongoing.

Q142       Albert Owen: Jyst i wneud pethau’n glir, drwy Swyddfa Cymru rydych chi’n mynd?

(Translation) Just to make it clear, you go through the Wales Office?

Councillor Llinos Medi: Ia.

(Translation) Yes.

Q143       Albert Owen: Ydych chi’n gwybod os ydyn nhw wedi siarad efo Philip Hammond, y Canghellor?

(Translation) Do you know whether they have spoken to Phil Hammond as Chancellor?

Councillor Llinos Medi: Alla i ddim rhoi ateb i chi heddiw, ond fel roeddwn i’n ddweud, ddydd Gwener diwethaf roedden ni’n cael gweithdy i roi diweddariad ar y gwaith sydd wedi bod yn mynd rhagddo. Ddydd Gwener yma mae’r bwrdd yn cyfarfod felly fyddwn i’n dychmygu y byddwn ni’n cael gwybod.

(Translation) I cannot give you an answer on that today. But, as I said, last Friday we had a workshop and an update on the work, and the board will meet this Friday.

Albert Owen: Jyst i orffen, mae yna gyfle i mi godi hyn fory yn y datganiad.

(Translation) To conclude, there is an opportunity for me to raise this tomorrow in the statement.

Chair: Bydd Ysgrifennydd Cymru yn dod o’n blaen ni yn yr wythnosau nesaf, dw i’n credu.

(Translation) The Secretary of State for Wales is appearing before us in the next few weeks.

Q144       Susan Elan Jones: Ydy Gweinidogion San Steffan wedi dod i fyny i ogledd Cymru i drafod y peth efo chi?

(Translation) Have Ministers from Westminster been up to north Wales to discuss this with you?

Councillor Llinos Medi: Fe fuodd Nigel Adams i’r bwrdd. Mae Alun Cairns wedi bod yn y bwrdd ei hun.

(Translation) Nigel Adams came to the board, and Alan Cairns has been to the board .

Q145       Susan Elan Jones: Yn ddiweddar?

(Translation) Recently?

Councillor Llinos Medi: Do. Yn dilyn y penderfyniad ryw chwech neu saith wythnos yn ôl, fe fuodd o yn y bwrdd yn y cyfarfod yng Nghaernarfon. Wedyn yn dilyn y penderfyniad, buodd Alun Cairns yn Sir Fôn hefyd.

(Translation) Yes. Following the decision about six or seven weeks ago, he came to the board meeting in Caernarfon. Following the decision, Alun Cairns came to Anglesey as well.

Q146       Susan Elan Jones: Mae’n ddiddorol clywed beth oedd gennych chi i’w ddweud ynglŷn â buddsoddiad y sector preifat, sydd wrth gwrs yn hynod o bwysig. Ydych chi’n meddwl bod y Llywodraeth fan hyn yn deall yr holl sefyllfa ynglŷn â’r sector preifat yng ngogledd Cymru? Rydyn ni’n teimlo weithiau ein bod ni mewn rhan wahanol o’r byd. Beth ydy’ch barn chi am hynny?

(Translation) It was interesting to hear what you said about private sector investment, which of course is vital. Do you think that the Government here understand the situation around the private sector in north Wales? I feel we are a different part of the world sometimes. What is your view on that?

Councillor Llinos Medi: Mae o’n her ofnadwy i ddeall economi’r gogledd a’r diffyg economi yn rhai ardaloedd o’r gogledd. Mae gofyniad ar y sector preifat a gofyniad i fod â phres ar y bwrdd. Rydyn ni eisiau trio hyrwyddo’r economi wledig yn y cynllun bid twf, ond does gan y cwmnïau yma ddim y gallu ariannol i gynnig arian ar y bwrdd. Rydyn ni eisiau cael y rhanbarth yn barod i ffynnu, ac mae’n anodd iawn yn y trafodaethau rydyn ni’n eu cael i gael y ddealltwriaeth yna. Rydyn ni’n defnyddio Stena fel esiampl wych o’r sector preifat. Mae’n rhaid i ni gael rywfaint o ddealltwriaeth o’r heriau rydyn ni’n eu hwynebu yn y rhanbarth. Ni fydd y cwmnïau bach yma’n gallu rhoi arian ar y bwrdd ond maen nhw yn gallu rhoi eu cydweithrediad i ni i lwyddo.

(Translation) It is a major challenge to understand the economy of north Wales, and the lack of economy in certain areas in north Wales. The requirement is for the private sector to put money on the table. We want to try and promote the rural economy in the growth bid, but these companies do not have the financial ability to put money on the table. We want to get the region ready to prosper, and it is very difficult in our discussions to get that understanding. We use Stena as a fantastic example of the private sector. There must be some understanding of the challenges that we face in the region. These small companies will not be able to put money on the table, but they can co-operate with us to succeed.

Q147       Susan Elan Jones: Mae’n ddiddorol clywed beth rydych chi wedi ei ddweud. Mae gennym ni economi eithaf unigryw os ydych chi’n meddwl am y ffin a’r economi ar draws y ffin a’r bobl sy’n mynd ar draws y ffin i weithio ac yn y blaen. Wrth gwrs, mae’r economi yn wahanol eto yn ardaloedd gwledig y gogledd. Mae’n gwbl wahanol i fan hyn ac mae’n gwbl wahanol i bob rhan arall o Gymru dw i’n meddwl hefyd. Diolch yn fawr am hynny.

(Translation) It is interesting to hear your comments. We have quite a unique economy, really, if you think about the border, the economy across the border and the people who cross the border for work and so forth, and of course the economy is different again in the rural areas of north Wales. It is absolutely different from here and very different from every other part of Wales, I think. Thank you very much for that answer.

Q148       Chair: Ga i ofyn pa mor bwysig yw’r diwydiant niwclear i economi gogledd Cymru? Dw i’n meddwl mod i’n gwybod yr ateb. Fyddwn i’n dweud ei fod e’n bwysig iawn, iawn. Pa fath o effaith fydd ataliad Wylfa Newydd yn ei gael ar gynlluniau eraill ar gyfer y diwydiant niwclear yng ngogledd Cymru?

(Translation) How important is the nuclear industry to the economy in north Wales? I think I know the answer to that. I would say that it is very, very important. What kind of impact will the suspension of Wylfa Newydd have on other plans for the nuclear industry in north Wales?

Dylan Williams: Fe wnaf i ddechrau’n lleol. O bersbectif gogledd Ynys Môn, mae tua 18% o swyddi yn hollol ddibynnol ar y diwydiant niwclear—o Magnox i’r NDA i Horizon. Mae Magnox yn datgomisiynu. Maen nhw’n mynd i fod yn cwtogi ar eu nifer o staff—bydd y nifer o gontractau’n lleihau. Mae Horizon yn mynd i lawr o 67 o weithwyr i saith neu wyth ac maen nhw’n cael gwared ar 33 o brentisiaid. Mae hwnna’n rhoi syniad o ran gogledd yr ynys. Mae’r diwydiant yn bwysig, bwysig iawn y tu allan i giât safle Wylfa.

Wrth gwrs, rhwng Wylfa a Thrawsfynydd, mae yna nifer o bobl sy’n ddibynnol ar y diwydiant. Mae’n siŵr bod gan Dr Jones fwy o ddealltwriaeth o hynny na fi.

(Translation) I will start locally. From the perspective of the north of Anglesey, around 18% of are absolutely dependent on the nuclear industry—from Magnox to the NDA to Horizon. Magnox is decommissioning. They are going to be cutting back on the number of staff—the number of contracts will reduce. Horizon is going down from 67 employees to seven or eight and getting rid of 33 apprentices. That gives you an idea in terms of the north of the island. The industry is very, very important outside the gates of the Wylfa site.

Of course, between Wylfa and Trawsfynydd, a number of people are reliant on the industry. I am sure Dr Jones has more understanding of that than me.

Q149       Chair: Dw i’n disgwyl bod y rhain yn swyddi sy’n talu’n dda hefyd?

(Translation) I expect that these are well paid jobs as well?

Dylan Williams: Rhyw £24,000 ydy cyflog cyfartalog Ynys Môn. Pe baech chi wedyn yn edrych ar Wylfa a safleoedd o’r math yna, rydych chi i fyny i tua £40,000 bron. O ran disposable income, safon a hyfforddiant a bob dim arall, mae’r bwlch rhwng y diwydiant a gweddill—neu rhan fwyaf—yr economi yn sylweddol. Efallai bod hwnna’n rhan o’r ffactor pam mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r prentisiaid yn blaenoriaethu dilyn hyfforddiant yn y diwydiant yn hytrach na mewn diwydiant neu fusnes arall.

(Translation) The average salary on Anglesey is about £24,000. If you then look at Wylfa and sites of that nature, you are up to about £40,000. In terms of disposable income and the standard of training and so forth, the gap between the industry and the rest or the majority of the economy is significant. Perhaps that is part of the reason why the majority of apprentices prioritise training in this industry rather than in another business or industry.

Councillor Llinos Medi: Roedd gennym ni growth vision i’r rhanbarth ac roedd datblygu Wylfa Newydd yn rhan greiddiol o’r growth vision. Mae’r sector niwclear yn bwysig i’r rhanbarth. Yr hyn rydyn ni wedi bod yn trio ei wneud ydy creu rhanbarth o arbenigedd ble roedden ni’n gallu cynnig arbenigedd byd-eang lle oedden ni’n mynd i weld pobl ifanc yn dod ar draws y byd i’r rhanbarth i gael eu hyfforddi. Mae hwnna’n dal yn uchelgais gennym ni. Fel roedd Dr John Idris yn ei ddweud, dydy’r ddaearyddiaeth ddim wedi newid, dydy’r safle ddim wedi newid. Mae’r prosiect yn dal yna’n barod i fynd. Does dim rheswm i’r penderfyniad yma newid ein dyhead ni yn y rhanbarth. Cadw’r momentwm yna i fynd a chadw’r hyder yna i fynd—dyna sy’n dda yn y cynlluniau bid twf sydd yn atgyfnerthu’r dyhead. Maen nhw’n dal yn gallu bodoli er y penderfyniad yna.

(Translation) We had the growth vision for the region, and the Wylfa Newydd development was a core part of that. The nuclear sector is very important for the area. We have been trying to become a region of expertise whereby we can offer global expertise whereby young people would come from around the world to our region to be trained. We still have that ambition. As Dr John Idris said, the geography has not changed, the site has not changed. The project is still there, ready to go. There is no reason why this decision should change our aspiration in the region. It’s a case of keeping that momentum going and keeping the confidence alive, and that is what’s in the growth bid plans: they strengthen that ambition, which can exist despite the decision.

Dr John Idris Jones: Fe fyddwn i’n ategu hynny a hefyd yn tynnu’ch sylw chi at adroddiad a ddaeth allan yr wythnos ddiwethaf. Mae’n cael ei alw’n science and innovation audit on the north-west of England and north Wales nuclear arc—gwaith a gafodd ei gomisiynu gan BEIS ac a wnaethpwyd gan Brifysgol Manceinion, Prifysgol Bangor, y National Nuclear Laboratory a Llywodraeth Cymru ar y cyd. Mae’r gwaith yna wedi edrych ar ogledd Cymru a gogledd-orllewin Lloegr a’r sgiliau o arbenigedd sydd yn yr ardaloedd yna. Mae’r adroddiad yn pwysleisio pwysigrwydd y diwydiant i’r economi ar draws yr ardaloedd yna a’r gwaith trawsffiniol yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Cymru a gogledd-orllewin Lloegr, yn ogystal â mewn safleoedd fel Wylfa a Thrawsfynydd. Un o’r casgliadau yn yr adroddiad yw: “The NWNA provides an ideal location for two Innovation Partnerships: in Cumbria and in North Wales…centred on the repurposing of Trawsfynydd and the potential new build at Wylfa Newydd, and complementing the Welsh Government’s investment in Menai Science Parc.”

Mae’r awgrymiadau yn yr adroddiad yn sôn am yr angen am beth sy’n cael ei alw’n thermal hydraulics facility ar y parc gwyddoniaeth yng Ngaerwen yn Sir Fôn; facility ar gyfer edrych ar materials ym Mhrifysgol Bangor; a Thrawsfynydd fel safle ar gyfer datblygiad cyntaf adweithyddion bach. Mae hwn yn adroddiad annibynnol; nid John Idris sydd yn dweud hynna gyda llaw. Mi fedraf i roi’r reference i chi ar ôl y cyfarfod.

Yng ngogledd Cymru a gogledd-orllewin Cymru’n arbennig, mae yna botensial, wrth edrych ymlaen, i ogledd-orllewin Cymru ddatblygu fel canolfan ardderchogrwydd ar gyfer ynni carbon isel—nid dim ond ynni niwclear ond ynni morol ac ynni o bob mathau o fewn hyn. Er enghraifft, yn Nhrawsfynydd rydw i wedi bod yn gweithio, o dan un o fy rolau fel cadeirydd y parc menter, gyda Llywodraeth Cymru yn edrych ar y potensial ar gyfer datblygu ar y safle yna adweithyddion niwclear bach—y cyntaf o’u bath. Mae’r gwaith yna’n dangos bod Trawsfynydd yn sefyllfa ddelfrydol ar gyfer hynny. Bellach, mae’r diwydiant yn dweud hynny. Mae’r diwydiant yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd safle Trawsfynydd ar gyfer y math yna o ddatblygiad.

Mae o’r math o ddatblygiad allai ymestyn ar draws gogledd Cymru—gogledd-ddwyrain Cymru yn ogystal â gogledd-orllewin Cymru—ac i fyny holl ardal gogledd Lloegr ble roedd yna waith cynhyrchu ac ati yn y gorffennol a chefnogi datblygiadau mewn llefydd fel Springfields. Mae gogledd Cymru yn cael ei weld rwan fel canolfan ardderchogrwydd gyda datblygiadau prifysgol Bangor. Mae ganddyn nhw arbenigwyr yn arwain mewn materials in harsh environments. Maen nhw’n gallu edrych ar beth sy’n digwydd y tu fewn i adweithyddion niwclear yn ogystal ag edrych ar beth fyddai’n gallu digwydd allan yn y gofod. Mae’r pethau i gyd yn dod at ei gilydd.

(Translation) I echo that and draw your attention to a report that came out last week. It is a science and innovation audit on the north-west of England and north Wales nuclear arc. It was a piece of work commissioned by BEIS and undertaken by the University of Manchester, Bangor University, the National Nuclear Laboratory and the Welsh Government jointly. The work looked at north Wales and north-west England and the skills and expertise that exist in those areas. The report emphasises the importance of this industry to the economy across those areas and the cross-border work in north-east Wales and the north-west of England, as well as sites such as Wylfa and Trawsfynydd. One of the report’s conclusions is: “The NWNA provides an ideal location for two Innovation Partnerships: in Cumbria and in North Wales…centred on the repurposing of Trawsfynydd and the potential new build at Wylfa Newydd, and complementing the Welsh Government’s investment in Menai Science Parc.”

The recommendations in the report talk about the need for what is called a thermal hydraulics facility at the Gaerwen science park on Anglesey; a facility to look at materials at Bangor University; and Trawsfynydd as a site for the first development of small reactors. That is an independent report; it is not John Idris saying that. I can give you the reference after the meeting if you would like.

In north Wales, and north-west Wales in particular, there is potential to develop as a centre of excellence for low-carbon energy—not just nuclear, but marine and all kinds. In Trawsfynydd for example, we have worked, in one of my roles as the chair of the enterprise park, with the Welsh Government to look at the potential for developing small nuclear reactors on that site—the first of their type. That work shows that Trawsfynydd is in an ideal position for doing that. The industry states that as well; it recognises the importance of the Trawsfynydd site for that kind of development.

That kind of development can stretch across north Wales—north-east Wales as well as north-west Wales—and up through the whole of northern England, where there used to be production work in the past and to support developments in places such as Springfields. North Wales is considered a centre of excellence for development. In Bangor University there are experts in materials in harsh environments. They can look at what goes on in nuclear reactors, as well as what could occur out in space. Things are tying together.

Nick Kardahji: I do not have much to add to what colleagues have said, other than to point out that Magnox published a report last year that looked at the economic impact of its sites around the UK. It looked at the impact of the Wylfa Magnox site on the local economy and concluded that it was directly and indirectly responsible for 4% to 5% of Anglesey’s economy. That side alone has a significant impact, and the new-build site would only have added to that.

Q150       Chair: Dr Jones, mae’r Llywodraeth yn barod i dalu £92.50 am bob megawatt awr yn Hinkley i sicrhau bod Hinkley’n mynd ymlaen. Dw i ddim yn hollol siŵr am y ffigurau ar gyfer Wylfa Newydd achos mae’r cytundeb yn wahanol. Ond hypothetically, petai’r Llywodraeth yn barod i dalu’r un strike price i Wylfa Newydd, ydych chi’n meddwl y byddai Wylfa Newydd yn mynd ymlaen?

(Translation) Dr Jones, the Government are ready to pay £92.50 per megawatt hour in Hinkley, to ensure that Hinkley continues. I am not entirely sure about the figures for Wylfa Newydd, because the contract is different. Hypothetically, if the Government were willing to pay the same strike price to Wylfa Newydd, would Wylfa Newydd go ahead?

Dr John Idris Jones: Roedd lot o’r strike price ar gyfer Hinkley Point yn ymwneud â beth sy’n cael ei alw’n risk premium ar yr ochr ariannu. Fel dw i’n deall, mae hyd at bron i hanner cost Hinkley Point yn gost ariannu’r pres oedd angen ei fenthyg. Felly, fyddwn i’n meddwl y byddai Hitachi yn edrych yn ffafriol ar rywbeth fel yna. Ond y cwestiwn ydy, pwy sy’n dal y risg ar gyfer gwahanol bethau? Beth os yw’r Llywodraeth yn newid polisi fel ddigwyddodd yn yr Almaen er enghraifft, ac yn dweud eu bod nhw eisiau cael gwared ar gynhyrchu trydan o bwerdai niwclear? Mae RWE ac EO.N wedi colli arian yn ofnadwy o achos hynny. Mae yna gwestiynau eithaf pwysig yn dal i fod yn nhermau pwy sy’n dal y risg.

(Translation) A lot of the strike price for Hinkley Point related to what is known as the risk premium, on the finance side of things. Almost half the cost of Hinkley Point is that of financing the borrowing. I would think that Hitachi would look favourably at something like that, but the question is who holds the risk? What if the Government changed their policy, as happened in Germany and said they wanted to get rid of electricity production from nuclear power stations? RWE and EO.N have lost huge amounts of money because of that. Quite important questions remain about who holds the risk.

Q151       Guto Bebb: Dw i ddim eisiau bod yn negyddol achos dw i’n credu bod y datblygiadau yma’n allweddol bwysig i economi gogledd Cymru ac yn wir i ogledd-orllewin Lloegr hefyd. Cyn i mi symud i fod yn Aelod Seneddol, roeddwn i’n ymwneud llawer efo Ynys Ynni Ynys Môn. Dw i’n cofio gwneud astudiaeth eithaf manwl ar ddemograffi’r gweithwyr yn y sector niwclear. Pe baech chi wedi dweud wrtha i bryd hynny­—yn 2005, 2006, 2007,  pan oedd y math yna o waith yn cael ei wneud i fraenaru’r tir —y byddwn i wedi bod yn Aelod Seneddol am naw mlynedd heb weld datblygiad yn Wylfa nac yn Traws fyddwn i ddim wedi eich credu chi.

Rydyn ni’n gwybod ein bod ni wedi lansio’r sector deal ar gyfer Trawsfynydd ond ydych chi’n cael y teimlad gan y diwydiant yn gyffredinol eu bod nhw’n teimlo bod y Llywodraeth yma’n San Steffan yn rhoi’r gefnogaeth angenrheidiol iddyn nhw? Mater i San Steffan ydy’r gefnogaeth yma. Dw i ar ddeall, er enghraifft, bod y gwaith ymchwil sy’n mynd ymlaen efo cwmni megis Rolls-Royce i mewn i’r syniad o SMRs wedi cael ei mothballio mwy na heb am y tro achos nad oedden nhw’n teimlo bod arweiniad digonol yn dod gan Lywodraeth San Steffan. Tra dw i’n derbyn bob un pwynt sydd wedi cael ei wneud ynghylch addasrwydd safle Wylfa a beth sydd yn bosibl yn Nhrawsfynydd, y cwestiwn sydd gen i—a dw i’n Aelod Seneddol Ceidwadol—ydych chi’n credu bod y gefnogaeth wedi dod gan y Llywodraeth yn y modd fyddech chi’n ei ddisgwyl dros y naw mlynedd ddiwethaf?

(Translation) I do not want to be negative, because I think these developments are vital to the economy of north Wales and, indeed, to north-west England. Before I became a Member of Parliament, I was involved in Energy Island; I remember doing a demography study of employees in the nuclear sector. If you had told me in 2005, 2006 or 2007, when work was being done to prepare the ground, that I would have been a Member of Parliament for nine years and still not seen development at Wylfa or Traws, I would not have believed you.

We have launched the sector deal for nuclear in Trawsfynydd, but do you get the feeling from the industry in general that they feel the Government in Westminster are giving them the necessary support? It is for Westminster to give that support. For example, I understand that the ongoing research work on SMRs in companies such as Rolls-Royce has pretty much been mothballed because they do not feel that adequate guidance is coming from the Government here in Westminster. Accepting all the points that have been made about the suitability of the Wylfa site and what is possible in Trawsfynydd, my question as a Conservative Member of Parliament is whether you think that support has been forthcoming from the Government over the past nine years in the way that you would expect.

Albert Owen: Jyst ar ben hynna, os ga i, Cadeirydd...

(Translation) On the back of that—

Guto Bebb: Roeddwn i’n meddwl mod i wedi gwneud digon o niwed i’r Llywodraeth fy hun!

(Translation) I thought I had done enough damage to the Government!

Q152       Albert Owen: Wel, mwy na fi! Y cwestiwn dw i eisiau gofyn ydy’r un cwestiwn bron: oes yna progress ers lansio’r sector niwclear yn Nhrawsfynydd? Hwnna ydy’r cwestiwn. Un o’r sectorau cyntaf i gael eu lansio oedd y sector niwclear. Dw i ar Bwyllgor BEIS ac rydyn ni’n edrych ar yr industrial strategy ac maen nhw’n ail-lansio rhywbeth arall o hyd, ond beth ydy’r progress? John, rydych chi wedi codi’r ffaith bod na bartneriaeth rhwng gogledd Cymru a Cumbria, er enghraifft. Ydy hwnna’n gweithio?

(Translation) Well, more than me! The question that I want to ask is almost the same, really: has there been progress since the launch of the nuclear sector in Trawsfynydd? That is the question. One of the first sectors to be launched was the nuclear sector. As you know, I am on the BEIS Committee, which is looking at the industrial strategy. They are relaunching something else, and then something else, but what is the progress? John, you raised the fact that there is a partnership between north Wales and Cumbria, for example. Does that work?

Dr John Idris Jones: Fe wna i ddechrau efo’r cwestiwn diwethaf gyntaf os ydy hynny’n iawn, tra dw i’n cofio amdano fo. Ydy, dw i’n meddwl ei fod o. Beth sydd wedi digwydd yn y gorffennol yn y diwydiant, a dw i’n meddwl yn gyffredinol efallai, ydy rhyw fath o blwyfoldeb—“Da ni isio fo; dach chi ddim yn ei gael o”—ond dw i’n meddwl bod pobl yn sylweddoli rwan bod gennym ni gacen fawr ble mae’r prosiectau mawr yn y cwestiwn a bod yna ddigon o’r gacen i fynd dros Gymru a gogledd Lloegr.

Ynghylch y sylwadau oeddech chi’n eu gwneud ynglŷn ag ydw i’n credu bod y Llywodraeth yn symud digon cyflym—nac ydw, dydw i ddim. Dw i’n meddwl bod yna lot o eiriau da’n cael eu dweud ond rydyn ni wedi bod yn disgwyl, er enghraifft, am ddatganiadau gan y Llywodraeth ynglŷn â slots ar gyfer generic design assessments. Dw i ddim yn meddwl ein bod ni wedi clywed eto ynglŷn â phryd mae’r rheiny’n mynd i fynd ymlaen.

Fel dw i’n deall, mae Rolls-Royce wedi gwneud cais i’r industrial strategy challenge fund, neu ryw gobbledegook fel yna, yn gofyn am arian. Mae’r gwaith yna’n mynd trwy ba bynnag broses mae o’n gorfod mynd trwyddo fo. Roeddwn i’n holi hogiau Rolls-Royce, “Pryd ydych chi’n mynd i glywed am hyn?” “Mis Mawrth”. Pan ofynnais i ba flwyddyn, doedden nhw ddim yn gwybod. Felly fy nheimlad i ydy nad ydy pethau’n dod allan yn amserol am ba bynnag reswm.

Ar ôl dweud hynny, dw i’n ymwybodol bod y camau sydd yn cael eu gwneud gan y swyddogion yn BEIS ac ati yn waith arbennig o dda sy’n paratoi’r ffordd ymlaen. Mae yna drafodaethau’n digwydd rhwng y diwydiant a’r Llywodraeth. Mae yna dargedau. Mae’n dipyn o challenge lleihau cost trydan niwclear 30%, a’i gael o i lawr i £60, ond mae o’n edrych fel petai hynny’n bosib rwan efo’r trafodaethau yma. Mae’r challenges yna’n cael eu gosod.

Mae angen cael mwy o ferched i mewn i’r diwydiant. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth y mae’r diwydiant yn ymateb iddo’n gadarnhaol. Mae’n wych gweld bod rhywun fel Gwen wedi bod o’ch blaen chi’n ddiweddar. Felly mae yna waith yn mynd yn ei flaen, ond plîs, brysiwch o!

(Translation) I will start with the last question while I remember it, if that is okay. Yes, I think it is working. In the past, in the industry and perhaps generally, I think there was a bit of parochialism—“It’s ours, you can’t have it”—but people now realise that there are a lot of these major projects and the cake is big enough to be shared between Wales and the north of England.

You asked whether I think the Government is moving quickly enough. No, I do not. Lots of warm words are spoken, but we have been expecting, for example, a statement from the Government on slots for generic design assessments, and I do not think we have yet heard when they will come forward.

As I understand it, Rolls-Royce has applied to the industrial strategy challenge fund, or some gobbledegook like that, asking for money. That work is going through whatever process it has to go through. I asked some of the Rolls-Royce people, “When are you expecting to hear about this?” and they said “March”, but when I asked what year, they did not know. My feeling is that things are not coming out on a timely basis, for whatever reason.

Having said that, I am aware that the steps taken and the work done by the officials in BEIS is particularly good work that is really preparing the way forward. There are discussions that take place between the industry and the Government, and there are targets. It is quite a challenge to reduce the cost of nuclear electricity by 30% to £60, but it looks as if that is possible now with the discussions. Those challenges are being set.

We need to get more women into the industry. The industry is reacting positively to that—it is fantastic to see somebody like Gwen appearing before you here. So I think work is going on, but can we hurry it up, please?

Chair: Dw i wedi cael neges yn dweud bod yr Attorney General yn mynd i wneud datganiad i’r Tŷ mewn ychydig funudau. Felly dw i’n meddwl y bydd hynny o ddiddordeb mawr i bob un ohonom ni. Ga i felly ofyn i Jonathan ac wedyn Albert i ofyn eich cwestiynau’n gyflym iawn?

(Translation) We have had a message that the Attorney General is going to make a statement to the House in a few minutes. I think that it will attract the interest of us all, so may I ask Jonathan and Albert to ask your questions briefly, please?

Q153       Jonathan Edwards: Rydych chi wedi ateb beth oeddwn i’n mynd i ofyn. Ond jyst i fod yn glir yn fy mhen i, ydych chi fel partneriaid lleol yn gweld Wylfa B, Trawsfynydd o ran y reactors bach, a datblygu ynni môr fel rhan o un pecyn ehangach? Neu ydych chi’n ei weld fel rhan o brosiectau gwahanol sy’n dod i mewn i’r un strategaeth? Sut ydych chi’n gweld yr holl beth yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd?

(Translation) You have answered what I was going to ask, but just briefly—so I am clear in my mind—do you as local partners see Wylfa B, Trawsfynydd in the context of small modular reactors, and developing marine energy as part of one broader package, or as part of different projects that come into the same strategy? How do you see it all working together?

Dr John Idris Jones: Yn bersonol, dw i’n ei weld o i gyd fel un prosiect. Os ydyn ni o ddifrif ynglŷn â thargedau carbon isel 2050, mae’n rhaid cael y gwahanol gymysgfeydd o ynni. Fe fyddan nhw’n digwydd o fewn prosiectau unigol—bydd prosiect Wylfa Newydd a phrosiect Traws yn brosiectau ar wahân a bydd prosiect Morlais a Minesto ac ati’n brosiectau ar wahân. Ond mae’n rhaid iddyn nhw ddigwydd mewn rhyw ffurf holistig os ydyn ni’n mynd i weld y targedau ynni carbon isel yn cael eu gwireddu er mwyn mynd yn erbyn cynhesu byd-eang ac ati.

(Translation) Personally, I see it all as one project. If we are serious about the low-carbon targets for 2050, we have to get those different mixes of energy. It will happen within individual projects—the Wylfa Newydd project and the Traws project are separate projects, and Morlais and Minesto are separate projects—but it will have to happen in a holistic manner if low-carbon energy is to become a reality and if we are to mitigate global warming.

Dylan Williams: Ga i ychwanegu at hynny’n sydyn? Dw i’n cytuno gyda phob dim ddywedodd John. I fynd yn ôl i’r sector deal, os ydych chi’n sbïo ar hwnnw o bersbectif Wylfa, mae’n rhaid i’r polisi ynni fod yn ei le, mae’n rhaid i’r strwythur cyllidol fod yn ei le, ac wedyn mae’n rhaid i ni gael cwmni neu grŵp o gwmnïau i symud y prosiect yn ei flaen. Ar y funud, yn amlwg o bersbectif Hitachi, dydy’r package cyllidol ddim yn ei le. Ac o ganlyniad, dydy’r prosiect ddim wedi symud ymlaen. Gobeithio y gwneith hynny sortio’i hun allan dros y flwyddyn neu ddwy nesaf tra’n cadw at a chryfhau’r polisi ynni i sicrhau bod datblygiad o’r fath yn gallu symud ymlaen.

(Translation) May I make a quick point? I agree with everything that John said, but to go back to the sector deal from the perspective of Wylfa, the energy policy, the funding policy and the structure have to be in place, and we also have to get a company or a group of companies to move the project forward. Currently, from a Hitachi perspective, the funding package is clearly not in place; as a result, the project has not moved forward. Hopefully, over the coming year or two, that will sort itself out while keeping to and strengthening the energy policy to ensure that such a development can progress.

Albert Owen: Mae Moorside wedi mynd i lawr hefyd ac un neu ddau brosiect dros Brydain Fawr.

(Translation) Moorside has also gone down, and one or two other UK projects.

Chair: Gobeithio y bydd diwydiannau eraill yn cymryd sylw o gefnogaeth y cyngor a’r holl ardal i fuddsoddiad mawr.

Diolch yn fawr iawn i bawb am ddod.

(Translation) Hopefully other industries will take notice of the support from the council and the whole area for a big investment.

Thank you very much, everybody, for attending.