Welsh Affairs Committee

Oral evidence: Prison provision in Wales, HC 742

Tuesday 27 March 2018

Ordered by the House of Commons to be published on 27 March 2018.

Watch the meeting

Members present: David T. C. Davies (Chair); Tonia Antoniazzi; Chris Davies; Susan Elan Jones; Ben Lake; Anna McMorrin; Liz Saville Roberts.

Questions 84-125

Witnesses

I: Meri Huws, Welsh Language Commissioner and Guto Dafydd, Senior Compliance Officer for the Welsh Language Commissioner.

II: Reverend Nan Powell-Davies, Assistant Director of Ministries, Presbyterian Church of Wales.

Written evidence from witnesses:

• Comisiynydd y Gymraeg
• Welsh Language Commissioner

Examination of witnesses

Witnesses: Meri Huws and Guto Dafydd.

Chair: Croesawaf Meri Huws, Comisiynydd yr Iaith Gymraeg, a Guto Dafydd i’r Pwyllgor. Diolch yn fawr iawn am ddod yma heddiw i drafod y sefyllfa yn ein carchardai. Mae pawb yn deall ein bod ni’n gallu cymryd tystiolaeth yn Gymraeg neu Saesneg.

(Translation) May I welcome Meri Huws, the Welsh Language Commissioner, and Guto Dafydd? Thank you very much indeed for your attendance today to speak to us about the situation in our prisons. Everybody understands that we can take evidence in Welsh or English.

Q84            Ben Lake: Rwy’n ategu’r croeso i chi, a mae’n braf cael gofyn cwestiwn yn Gymraeg. I ddechrau gyda cwestiwn cyffredinol: yn eich tyb chi, sut mae HMPPS yn gwneud wrth gyflawni’r nod o ymdrin â’r Gymraeg a’r Saesneg yn gyfartal? Sut mae hynny’n cael ei adlewyrchu yn eu darpariaeth, neu yn rhai o’r adnoddau yn y carchardai?

(Translation) I also extend a word of welcome to you. How lovely it is to be able to ask my questions in Welsh. I have quite a general question to begin with. In your view, how is HMPPS doing in terms of delivering the aim of treating the Welsh and English languages equally? Is that reflected in any way in the provision or the resources that exist in our prisons?

Meri Huws: Diolch yn fawr am y cyfle i roi tystolaeth fan hyn ar fater sydd yn agos iawn at ein calonnau. Fel ry’ch chi’n gwybod, wnaethom ni roi tystiolaeth i’r Pwyllgor yn 2014, a phe bawn i’n ateb eich cwestiwn yr adeg hynny, buaswn yn mynegi pryder ynglŷn â dealltwriaeth beth oedd NOMS ar y pryd o’r angen i ddarparu gwasanaethau Cymraeg i garcharorion ym Mhrydain. O’r hyn ry’n ni’n gallu gweld ar bapur, mae’r sefyllfa wedi cryfhau yn sylweddol. Y sail at gyfer ddweud hynny yw ein bod ni’n gwneud darn o waith ar hyn o bryd—hap a damwain yw’r ffaith eich bod chi’n edrych ar y pwnc ar yr un adeg â ni. Fe ddechreuom ni edrych yn yr hydref ar y newid sydd wedi bod o ran y ddarpariaeth ar bapur. Yn sicr, pe bai chi’n garcharor yng Nghymru, buasai’r sefyllfa wedi cryfhau yn sylweddol o ran eich hawliau. Mae hynny wrth gwrs yn codi cwestiwn ynglŷn â sefyllfa menywod a phobl ifanc, sydd ddim o reidrwydd mewn carchar yng Nghymru.

Ar bapur, mae’r hyn ry’n ni’n weld yn dangos gwelliant. Mae’n ymwneud ni gyda HMPSS oddi ar 2015-16 wedi gwella yn sylweddol. Maen nhw’n adrodd ar eu cynllun iaith ac yn darparu data yn rheolaidd. Mae i ba raddau maen nhw’n defnyddio’r data hyn i gynllunio’r gwasanaeth yn gwestiwn gwahanol. Er enghraifft, ar hyn o bryd, ry’n ni’n deall eu bod nhw’n casglu data ar ddewis iaith carcharorion. Dydyn ni ddim yn gwybod i ba raddau maen nhw’n defnyddio’r data wrth leoli’r carcharorion. Ar hyn o bryd, mae’r sefyllfa i’w weld wedi cryfhau. Wnai droi at Guto, oherwydd fe ac Ifan, sydd yn eistedd tu ôl i fi, sydd yn gwneud y gwaith.

(Translation) Thank you for the opportunity to give evidence on a matter that is very close to our hearts. As you know, we gave evidence to this Committee back in 2014. If I had answered your question at that time, I would have expressed fundamental concern about the understanding by what was NOMS at the time of the need to provide Welsh language services to prisoners in Britain. From what we can see on paper, the situation has strengthened significantly. The basis on which I say that is that we are currently doing a piece of work on this. It is actually quite accidental that you are looking at this subject at the same time as we had decided to. We started back in autumn last year to look at the change that has taken place in terms of the provision on paper. Certainly, for prisoners in prisons in Wales, the situation has strengthened significantly in terms of their rights. That, of course, raises a question about the situation for women and young people, who may not be in prisons in Wales.

On paper, what we are seeing does show that there has been an improvement. Our involvement with HMPPS has improved substantially since 2015-16. They report on the Welsh language scheme and provide data on a regular basis. To what extent they make use of the data they provide to us to plan their service is a different question. For example, we understand they are at present gathering data about prisoners’ language preferences, but we do not know to what extent they use that as they locate those prisoners. At the current time, the situation seems to have been strengthened. I will turn to Guto, because he and Ifan, who is sitting behind us, are the ones undertaking the work.

Guto Dafydd: Buaswn i’n cytuno. Mae’r prif hawliau i garcharorion yn dod o gynllun iaith HMPPS. Mae hawliau eraill yn dod o ddeddfwriaeth arall—efallai gallwn ni drafod hynny nes ymlaen. Mae’r cynllun iaith yn datgan, fel mater o egwyddor, bod yr un lefel o wasanaeth sylfaenol i fod ar gael i garcharorion yng Nghymru ac yn Lloegr. Mae hynny oherwydd nad oes ganddyn nhw’r data i gynllunio’n fwy manwl, a rhoi darpariaeth well ar gael yng Nghymru. Mae pob math o ymrwymiadau yn y cynllun iaith yn ymwneud â chofnodi dewis iaith; sicrhau bod ffurflenni ar gael; staffio; datblygu sgiliau ac ymwybyddiaeth, i lawr at bethau manwl fel darpariaeth llyfrgell, a gallu cwyno yn Gymraeg.

Mae pethau cadarnhaol yn y ffordd maen nhw’n adrodd i ni. Maen nhw’n ymatebol iawn ar hyn o bryd. Mae ganddyn nhw drefniadau casglu data, i ryw raddau, ynghylch dewis iaith carcharorion. Mae ganddyn nhw drefniadau monitro eithaf cryf. Maen nhw’n arsylwi ar wasanaethau Cymraeg ac yn cysylltu hefo’r carcharorion ac yn gofyn iddyn nhw am eu barn. Maen nhw hefyd yn cynnal ymgyrchoedd er mwyn hyrwyddo’r Gymraeg. Mae yna ddatblygiadau technoleg o ran ystafelloedd a chelloedd mewn carchardai hefyd.

Ar y llaw arall, mae yna ddiffygion a diffyg sicrwydd yn cael eu hamlygu gan yr adroddiadau mae HMPPS yn eu darparu i ni. Does yna ddim sicrwydd bod gan HMPPS ddata am nifer y carcharorion sy’n gallu siarad Cymraeg. Maen nhw’n casglu dewis iaith, ond dydy hynny ddim yr un peth â’r sawl sy’n gallu defnyddio’r iaith.

Mae’r un peth yn mynd am swyddogion carchar. Mae’n wirfoddol i swyddogion ddarparu eu sgiliau iaith. Does yna ddim dadansoddiad o’r lefelau a dydyn ni ddim yn gwybod beth ydy’r niferoedd yna—dydy HMPPS ddim yn darparu’r ffigyrau. Diffyg cysondeb ry’m ni’n weld.

(Translation) I agree. The main rights for prisoners stem from the HMPPS Welsh language scheme. The other rights come from other legislation, which we can perhaps discuss later. Looking specifically at the Welsh language scheme, it states as a matter of principle that the same level of fundamental services is supposed to be available to prisoners in both England and Wales. That is because they do not have the data to be able to plan at a more detailed level to provide better provision in Wales. There are all kinds of commitments in the Welsh language scheme around language preference recording; forms being available; staffing; the development of skills and awareness, and lots of detailed things like the provision of a library service and the ability to complain in Welsh.

There are some positive things about the way they report to us. They are very accountable at the current time. They have data-collection arrangements to some extent around prisoners’ language preferences. They have quite robust monitoring arrangements. They observe Welsh language services, and they speak to prisoners and ask them what they think. They also run campaigns to promote the Welsh language. There have been technological developments in terms of the rooms and cells in prisons, too.

On the other hand, shortcomings have manifested themselves. There is a lack of certainty in the reports that HMPPS provide to us. There is no certainty that HMPPS has data on the number of prisoners who can speak Welsh. It collects language preference data, but that is not the same as data on those who can speak the language.

The same is true of prisoner officers. It is voluntary for prison officers to provide their Welsh skills level. There is no analysis of their level of Welsh and we do not know those numbers—HMPPS does not provide those figures. There is a lack of consistency.

Chair: Diolch yn fawr am yr atebion llawn. Mae gennym lawer o gwestiynau a dim ond 45 munud i’w gofyn.

(Translation) Thank you very much for the very full answers. We have quite a lot of questions to ask, and we have only 45 minutes in which to do so.

Q85            Liz Saville Roberts: Mae gen i gwestiwn sydyn. Gofynnwyd cwestiynau yn 2016 am nifer y swyddi wedi eu llenwi gan siaradwyr Cymraeg, yn benodol yn Berwyn, ond doedd y wybodaeth yna ddim yn cael ei chasglu. Ydy’r sefyllfa yna wedi newid?

(Translation) I have a quick question. There were questions in 2016 about the number of vacancies held by Welsh speakers specifically in HMP Berwyn. That data was not collected at the time. Has that changed?

Meri Huws: Mae casglu data yn dal i fod yn wirfoddol. Mae yna gwestiwn, ond gwirfoddol yw e o ran y gweithwyr, ac mae hynny’n peri rhywfaint o bryder. Os ydych chi’n mynd i edrych ar gynllunio gwasanaeth, dylai’r math yna o gwestiwn fod yn un sy’n ymwneud â sgiliau ieithyddol proffesiynol, ac felly dylai’r data fod yn cael eu casglu yn rheolaidd.

(Translation) Data collection is voluntary. That gives some degree of concern. If you are going to look at service planning, that kind of question should relate to professional linguistic skills, and therefore that data should be collected regularly.

Q86            Liz Saville Roberts: Mewn gwirionedd, “gwirfoddol” yw’r ateb i’r cwestiwn ym mhob sefydliad gyda chynllun iaith. Does neb eisiau—does neb gallu—gorfodi chwaith: dyw e ddim yn gwneud synnwyr i’w wneud. Ydych chi’n cael data yn ôl gan yr Adran am nifer y swyddogion sydd wedi gwirfoddoli’r wybodaeth?

(Translation) In truth, the answer in every institution that has a language scheme is that it is “voluntary”. Nobody wants to—and nobody can—enforce it and it does not make sense to do so. Do you get data back from the Department about the number of officers who have volunteered the information?

Guto Dafydd: Na. Maen nhw’n nodi wrthym ni bod nhw ddim yn bwriadu cyhoeddi’r data yna ar hyn o bryd. Maen nhw’n nodi mai data preifat iddyn nhw ydyw.

(Translation) No, they tell us that they do not intend to publish that data at the current time. They state that it is private data.

Q87            Liz Saville Roberts: Ydych chi’n fodlon ar y sefyllfa yna?

(Translation) Are you satisfied with that situation?

Guto Dafydd: Basen ni’n dymuno gweld nhw yn cyhoeddi’r data neu yn eu gwneud ar gael i ni. Yr hyn ry’m ni eisiau yw sicrwydd bod nhw’n casglu’r data mewn ffordd fanwl, a wedyn eu bod nhw’n defnyddio’r data yna er mwyn cynllunio’u gwasanaethau. Tase nhw’n defnyddio’r data er mwyn cynllunio’u gwasanaethau a’u bod nhw eisiau cadw hwnnw’n breifat, digon teg; ond does gennym ni ddim sicrwydd ar hyn o bryd.

Roedd yna obaith y byddai Carchar Berwyn yn galluogi recriwtio llawer mwy o siaradwyr Cymraeg. Fe wnaethon ni gynnal ymchwiliad nôl yn 2016 a chasglu eu bod nhw heb ddilyn eu cynllun iaith o ran asesu’r sgiliau oedd yn anghenrhediol ar gyfer swyddi yng Ngharchar Berwyn. Maen nhw wedi ymateb yn gadarnhaol i’r ymchwiliad yna ac wedi rhoi camau mewn lle.

(Translation) We would want the data to be published and made available to us. We want certainty that they collect the data in a detailed way and that they make use of that data in order to plan their service. If they used the data to plan their services and they wanted to keep that private, that is fair enough, but we don’t have the certainty at the current time.

There was a hope that HMP Berwyn would be able to recruit far more Welsh speakers. We held an inquiry back in 2016 and concluded that they had not followed the Welsh language scheme in terms of assessing the skills that were necessary for posts in HMP Berwyn. They have responded affirmatively to that investigation and have put steps in place.

Q88            Ben Lake: Diolch yn fawr i chi. Fe sonioch chi sawl gwaith yn eich ateb bod pethau wedi gwella—ar bapur, yn sicr—yn benodol iawn petai chi’n garcharor mewn carchar gwrywaidd. Ydw i’n iawn i feddwl bod y sefyllfa’n wahanol i fenywod a phobl ifanc, ac hefyd, er bod pethau’n gryfach ar bapur, bod pethau mewn realiti ddim cweit yr un peth mewn carchardai gwrywaidd?

(Translation) Thank you very much for that. You said several times that on paper, certainly, things have changed, very specifically if you were a prisoner in a male prison. Am I right to think that the situation is different for female prisoners or young people, and perhaps that even though things are stronger on paper, things in reality are not quite the same in male prisons?

Meri Huws: Ga’i gymryd yr ail gwestiwn yn gyntaf? Yn y darn o waith ry’m ni’n ei wneud ar hyn o bryd, ry’m ni wedi gorffen y cyfnod ymchwil pen desg, felly ry’m ni wedi mynd trwy’r gwaith papur. Ry’m newydd orffen cyfweld carcharorion a theuluoedd carcharorion—pobl sy’n mynd drwy’r broses ar hyn o bryd, yn ddynion ac yn fenywod.

Y cam nesaf, ar ôl dadansoddi’r data yna, fydd siarad gyda’r sefydliadau eu hunain, i gasglu data a gwybodaeth wyneb yn wyneb ynglŷn â beth yw’r gwir brofiad. Ar bapur, mae yna elfen o sicrwydd, neu ychydig fwy o sicrwydd, ond ry’m ni’n mynd i herio hwnna trwy gyfweliadau. Y cam nesa o’n rhan ni yw gofyn y cwestiynau anodd yna ynglŷn â ydy’r hyn sydd ar bapur yn cael ei wireddu.

(Translation) Let me take the second question first, if I may. In the piece of work that we are undertaking, we have concluded the desktop research period, so we have gone through the paperwork. We have just concluded interviews with prisoners. We have interviewed prisoners’ families—people who are going through the process at the current time, both male and female.

After analysing that data, the next step will be to speak to the institutions, to collect knowledge and data face to face about the actual experience. On paper, there is a little bit more certainty than there was, but we are going to challenge that through interviews. The next step on our part will be to ask those difficult questions about whether what is on paper is actually real.

Q89            Tonia Antoniazzi: You told us that you are undertaking a review on prisoners’ rights to the use the Welsh language. Could you tell us more about your review and what you are doing to gather information?

Meri Huws: Fel soniais i, ry’m ni newydd orffen y cyfnod casglu gwybodaeth ar beth ddylai’r hawliau fod a beth sydd wedi newid o ran deddfwriaeth oddi ar 2015, pan wnaethon ni’r darn diwethaf o waith. Y cam nesaf yw edrych ar brofiad carcharorion, yn ddynion a menywod ac, i’r graddau gallwn ni, yn bobl ifanc o fewn yr ystad, i weld a ydyw’r profiad cystal â’r hyn sydd yn cael ei adlewyrchu o ran hawliau ar hyn o bryd. Mi fyddwn ni hefyd yn herio ac yn casglu gwybodaeth wyneb yn wyneb oddiwrth sefydliadau, gan gynnwys Carchar Berwyn, yn gofyn beth yw’r gwir brofiad. Dyna’r camau. Rydym yn gobeithio gorffen y gwaith yna erbyn hydref eleni a byddwn ni’n cyhoeddi hwnna wedyn fel darn o waith.

(Translation) As I mentioned, we have just concluded the phase of information collection on what the rights should be and what has changed in legislation since 2015, when we undertook the last piece of work. The next step is to look at the experience of prisoners within the estate, be they male or female, and young people to the extent that we can, to see if the experience is as good as is reflected in terms of rights at the current time. We will also be challenging and collecting the information face to face from institutions, including HMP Berwyn, asking what the actual experience is. Those are the steps. We hope to conclude that work by the autumn of this year, and we will be publishing that subsequently, as a piece of work.

Q90            Tonia Antoniazzi: Are you able to say what the review has found so far?

Meri Huws: Hyd yn hyn, ry’m ni wedi gweld elfen o sicrwydd bod pethau wedi gwella, ond mae’r gwaith casglu data neu’r gwaith pen-desg wedi codi cwestiynau ynglŷn ag i ba raddau mae’r hawliau’n cael eu gwireddu. Beth yw’r profiad? Does ddim gyda ni’r sicrwydd yna ar hyn o bryd. Un peth arall mae wedi gwneud yw codi cwestiynau ynglŷn â darpariaeth i fenywod ac i bobl ifanc. Dwi’n credu bod hwnna yn dal i beri cwestiynau yn ein pennau. Dyma pam ry’m ni’n awyddus i gasglu’r data wyneb yn wyneb.

(Translation) What we have seen so far is an element of certainty that things have improved. What the desktop research has done is raised questions about the extent to which the rights are being realised. What is the experience? That certainty is not something that we have at the current time. The other thing it has done is to raise questions about the provision for women and young people. I think that still raises questions in our minds and that is why we are eager to collect data face to face.

Q91            Tonia Antoniazzi: One area the review focuses on is the ability of different groups to use the Welsh language in prisons. Have you found any evidence of whether different groups of prisoners—you have mentioned this—such as women offenders or young offenders are having different experiences?

Guto Dafydd: Does dim llefydd i garcharorion benywaidd a charcharorion ifanc rhwng 18 ac 20 oed yng Nghymru. Ry’m ni wedi ffeindio yn ein gwaith pen-desg bod yna sylweddol fwy o hawliau ar bapur i garcharorion y tu fewn i Gymru. Mae hynny oherwydd bod gymaint o’r gwasanaethau sy’n cael eu darparu o fewn carchar yn cael eu darparu mewn partneriaeth. Â chymryd enghraifft gofal, mae Deddf Gofal yn Lloegr a Deddf Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a Llesiant yng Nghymru. Dan y ddwy Ddeddf yna, mae’r cyfrifoldeb am ofal yn disgyn ar yr awdurdod lleol lle mae’r carchar. Yn achos rhai yng Nghymru, mae’r Ddeddf Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn gosod cyfrifoldebau pendant o ran y Gymraeg, ac hefyd mae safonau wedi cael eu gosod ar y carchardai o ran cyfarfodydd sy’n ymwneud â llesiant. Yn yr enghraifft yna, mae yna sylweddol fwy o hawliau ar gyfer carcharorion yng Nghymru.

(Translation) There is no space for female prisoners or young prisoners between 18 and 20 years of age in Wales. What we found in our desktop research is that there are substantially more rights for prisoners within Wales. That is because so many of the services that are provided within a prison are provided in partnership. Take the example of care. You have the Care Act in England and the Social Services and Well-being Act in Wales. Under both those Acts, the responsibility for care lies with the local authority in which the prison is located. In the case of those in Wales, the Social Services Act places very firm responsibilities in terms of the Welsh language standards that have been imposed now on the prisons, in terms of the meetings relating to wellbeing. In that example, there are significantly greater rights available for prisoners in Wales.

Q92            Tonia Antoniazzi: I would just correct myself. There are young offenders in Parc prison. There is a youth unit there, isn’t there?

Guto Dafydd: Dan 18 oed.

(Translation) Under-18s.

Chair: I think we are coming to the issue of placements.

Q93            Liz Saville Roberts: Byddaf yn symud ymlaen at y cwestiwn nesaf ar y rhestr, ond mae gen i gwestiwn ehangach na hynny. Basen i'n hoffi holi am y gwasanaethau fyddai’n deillio i garcharorion a throseddwyr parthed Deddf Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a Llesiant (Cymru) 2014. Sut ydych chi’n gweld goblygiadau hynny o ran awdurdodau lleol a’r gofal sydd i droseddwyr pan fyddan nhw’n cael dod nôl i'r gymuned?

(Translation) I will move on to the next question on the list, but I have a broader question, which is about the service for prisoners and offenders under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. How you see the implications for local authorities and for the care available to offenders when they come back into the community?

Guto Dafydd: Yr egwyddor mae’r codau ymarfer ar gyfer y Ddeddf yn ei sefydlu yw y dylai’r gofal i garcharorion fod yr un peth â’r gofal i unrhyw aelod arall o’r cyhoedd yn ardal yr awdurdod lleol yna. Mae’r codau ymarfer yna yn nodi, er enghraifft, bod iaith yn rhan annatod o ofal, bod defnyddio iaith eu hunain i gyfathrebu a chyfrannu at eu gofal fel partneriaeth gyfartal ond yn bosib yn Gymraeg i rai pobl. Mae’n gorfodi cynghorau i ofyn i bobl beth yw eu dewis iaith ac i roi cynnig gweithredol i bobl. Pan fod angen cynllun gofal, mae iaith yn rhan o’r set ddata ar gyfer hynny. Mae cyfrifoldebau pendant o dan y Ddeddf sydd ddim yn mynd i fod yn berthnasol i unigolion o Gymru sy’n cael eu lleoli yn Lloegr.

Mae’r un peth yn wir ar gyfer gwasanaethau eraill. Mae iechyd, er enghraifft, yn cael ei ddarparu gan fyrddau iechyd lleol mewn carchardai yng Nghymru. Mae’r rheini sy’n gweithredu cynlluniau iaith wedi dod yn rhan o “Mwy na geiriau” ac felly’n rhoi cynnig rhagweithiol ac yn mynd i ddod o dan y safonau maes o law. Rydyn ni’n gweld yr un datblygiad, o bosib, ym maes addysg. Yng Ngharchar Berwyn, mae’r addysg yn cael ei darparu gan bartneriaeth sy’n cynnwys Coleg Cambria, darparwr addysg bellach o Gymru, sydd yn mynd i fod yn dod o dan y safonau yr wythnos nesaf. Un o’r pwyntiau cryfaf ar eu cais nhw, yn ôl HMPPS, oedd y ddarpariaeth o ran addysg Gymraeg.

(Translation) The codes of practice for the Act establish that the care for prisoners should be the same as for any other member of the public in the local authority area. The codes of practice state, for example, that language is an integral part of care and that using the language for communication as a contribution towards care as equal partners is only possible in Welsh for some people. It forces councils to ask people what their language preference is and provide them with an active offer. When they need a care plan, language forms part of the data set for that. Therefore there are very firm responsibilities under that Act, which are not going to be relevant to individuals from Wales who are located in England.

The same is true for other services. Health, for example, is provided by local health boards in prisons in Wales. Those that operate Welsh language schemes have become part of “More than just words” and offer an active offer and are going to be subject to the standards in due course. We can see the same development possibly happening in education. In HMP Berwyn, the education is provided by partners including Coleg Cambria, a further education provider from Wales, which is going to be subject to the standards next week. One of the strongest points in their application, according to HMPPS, was the provision that they could make in terms of Welsh-medium education.

Q94            Liz Saville Roberts: Bu aelodau’r Pwyllgor yn ymweld a HMP Berwyn a mae’r hyn welsom ni yn yr ychydig amser treuliasom ni yna yn codi calon, mae’n rhaid i mi ddweud. Roedd yn arbennig o dda. Mae’n bosib bod yna gwestiynau craffu, ond mae yna gwestiynau am reoli troseddwyr sydd yn ehanghach na charchardai yn unig.

Dwi ddim yn gwybod faint o gyfle sydd gennym i gyffwrdd ar agweddau eraill fel y cwmnïau adsefydlu cymunedol—y CRCs—yng Nghymru. Oes yna agweddau ehangach, tu allan i’r carchar, o’r gwasanaethau o ran y Gymraeg sydd angen ystyriaeth? Hefyd, o ran y Gymraeg, byddai datganoli agweddau o reoli troseddwyr i Gymru yn dod â gwedd newydd i’r sefyllfa?

(Translation) I have to say that, for the members of the Committee who visited HMP Berwyn, what we saw in the time we spent there is very encouraging and particularly good. There may be some scrutiny questions around that, but there are broader questions around offenders than simply the prisons.

How much opportunity do we have to touch upon other aspects, such as the community rehabilitation companies? And are there aspects of the services around the Welsh language that you see more broadly outside of the prisons that need to be considered? Also, in terms of the Welsh language, if aspects of offender management were devolved to Wales, would that bring big change?

Meri Huws: Mae yna sawl agwedd i’r cwestiwn yna. Fel y trydydd rhan o’r gwaith ymchwil, ry’m ni’n mynd i siarad gyda’r cyrff eraill, nid yn unig y darparwyr carchardai, ond y bobl sydd yn darparu gwasanaethau o fewn y carchardai, ac hefyd y bobl fydd yn delio gyda charcharorion wedi’r cyfnod o fod mewn carchar, ac ystyried sut mae’r ddarpariaeth yna yn cael ei deilwra i anghenion pobl o Gymru.

Y math o wybodaeth ry’m ni’n casglu ar hyn o bryd yw bod dewis iaith ddim yn rhywbeth “ffasiwn”—mae’n angenrheidiol. Os ydyn ni o ddifri ynglŷn â charchardai yn galluogi pobl i fynd yn ôl i’w cymunedau ac i’w teuluoedd, mae angen i’r ddarpariaeth adnabod angen ieithyddol y person. Nid yw’n fater o roi tic mewn bocs i ddweud, “Mae’r Gymraeg ar gael”; mae’n hollol angenrheidiol os ry’m ni o ddifri ynglŷn â charchardai yn adfer pobl i fywyd normal. I fi, dyna un o’r negeseuon clir i’r Pwyllgor: adnabod yr iaith fel rhan o’r pecyn adfer a bod hwnna’n rhan annatod o gryfhau a gwella sefyllfa carcharorion yng Nhymru.

(Translation) There are several aspects to that question. What we are going to do as the third part of the research is speak to those other bodies; not just the prison providers, but those who are involved in the provision of services within prisons, and also the people who will deal with prisoners after their period in prison. We will look at how that provision is tailored to the needs of people from Wales.

The kind of information that we are currently gathering is not that language preference is there for the sake of it—it is absolutely necessary. If we are serious about prisons enabling people to go back to their communities and their families, there is a need for that provision to identify their linguistic needs as people. Therefore, it is not just about ticking a box to say, “The Welsh language is available”. It’s absolutely necessary if we are serious about prisons rehabilitating people to go back to normal life. That is one of the clear messages from me for this Committee: to identify language as part of the package of rehabilitation, and that will form an integral part of strengthening and improving the situation for prisoners in Wales.

Q95            Liz Saville Roberts: Beth am o ran datganoli gwasanaethau a’r Gymraeg?

(Translation) What can you say in terms of the devolution of services and the Welsh language?

Meri Huws: Yn ddiddorol, beth sydd yn dechrau digwydd, fel soniodd Guto, yw bod cymaint o wasanaethau sy’n mynd mewn i garchardai yng Nghymru yn gweithio o dan gyfundrefnau fel safonau’r Gymraeg. Mae hynny’n digwydd i ryw raddau. Mae carchardai yng Nghymru yn bartneriaethau mewn darpariaeth sydd yn deillio o San Steffan a’r MOJ, a’r hyn sydd yn cael ei ddarparu yng Nghymru gan sefydliadau sydd wedi cael eu datganoli. Ry’m ni’n symud i ryw dir canol, boed mewn iechyd, gofal cymdeithasol, llyfrgelloedd neu addysg.

(Translation) As Guto touched on, what is starting to happen is that, interestingly, there are many services going into prisons in Wales that work under procedures such as the Welsh language standards regime. To some extent, that is happening. The prisons in Wales are now provision partnerships from Westminster and the Ministry of Justice, and what is provided from Wales by institutions that have been devolved. So we are moving to some middle ground, whether it be in health, social care, libraries or education.

Q96            Susan Elan Jones: Ydan ni’n gwybod os yw carcharorion yn fwy tebygol o siarad Cymraeg os maen nhw’n mynd i garchardai yn Nghymru? Ydan ni’n gwybod hynny yn bendant?

(Translation) Do we know if prisoners are more likely to speak Welsh if they go to prisons in Wales? Do we know that for sure?

Meri Huws: Nagyn. Dydyn ni ddim yn gwybod yn bendant oherwydd rwy’n credu bod yna dyllau o ran y data sydd yn cael eu casglu. Fel dywedodd Guto, mae yna wahaniaeth rhwng gofyn i rywun, “Beth yw eich dewis iaith chi?” a “Ydych chi’n gallu siarad Cymraeg?”

Rwy’n credu hefyd bydd yr ail ddarn o waith ry’m ni newydd orffen, lle ry’m ni’n siarad gyda charcharorion ac yn gofyn iddyn nhw beth yw eu profiadau, yn ateb rhan o’r cwestiwn, “Beth sy’n rhoi’r hyder yna i chi ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg, a pam mae hynny’n bwysig?” Bydd y gwaith ansoddol yna yn bwysig iawn i ni.

(Translation) No, we don’t. Why don’t we know that for sure? I think it is because there are gaps in the data that is collected. There is a difference between asking somebody “What is your language preference?” as Guto has said, and asking, “Can you speak Welsh?”

Also, I think that the second piece of work we have just concluded, in which we have been speaking to prisoners and asking them about their experiences, will give us an answer to part of that question about what gives people the confidence to use the Welsh language and why it is important. That qualitative work is going to be really important.

Q97            Susan Elan Jones: A yw carcharorion sydd yn Gymry Cymraeg yn dysgu’r iaith i’r rhai sydd ddim yn siarad Cymraeg? Oes gennym ni unrhyw wybodaeth am hynny? Pan aethon ni i garchar y Berwyn, doedd y mwyafrif o garcharorion ddim yn medru’r Gymraeg. A yw hynny’n cael effaith ar y rhai sydd yn Gymry Cymraeg?

(Translation) Do Welsh-speaking prisoners from Wales teach Welsh to those who are non-Welsh speakers? Do we have any information about that? We visited HMP Berwyn, where of course the majority of prisoners were not able to speak Welsh. Does that have any impact on those who are Welsh speakers?

Guto Dafydd: Fel nododd y Comisiynydd, does gennym ni ddim unrhyw fath o dystiolaeth nac unrhyw fath o sicrwydd bod y Gymraeg yn cael ei ystyried wrth leoli carcharorion. Yn amlwg, dydyn ni ddim yn dadlau mai dyna ddylai fod y prif ystyriaeth, ond dylai fod yn rhan o’r fformiwla sy’n cael ei defnyddio er mwyn penderfynu lle mae carcharorion yn cael eu lleoli.

Mae beth yr ydych yn holi yn ymwneud â defnydd cymdeithasol o’r Gymraeg. Ry’n ni’n gwybod, er enghraifft, bod mwy o gyfleon i ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg wrth gael gweithgareddau addysg a hyfforddiant, papurau newydd, gwylio S4C ac yn y blaen mewn carchardai yng Nghymru. Ein dealltwriaeth ni yw bod gwasanaethau o’r fath ddim ar gael yn Lloegr.

Mae’r elfen o siarad Cymraeg ymysg ei gilydd yn un diddorol iawn. Dyna un o’r pethau dwi’n edrych ymlaen at ddadansoddi o’r cyfweliadau ry’n ni wedi cynnal. Os oes gennych garchardai yng ngogledd-orllewin Lloegr, lle mae gennych màs o siaradwyr Cymraeg, efallai bod bywyd cymdeithasol Cymraeg yn bosib yn y carchardai hynny, er eu bod wedi eu lleoli y tu allan i Gymru. Byddwch chi’n clywed nes ymlaen gan rywun oedd arfer bod yn gaplan yn HMP Altcourse, ac mae hynny’n adlewyrchu’r ffaith bod digon o siaradwyr Cymraeg yna er mwyn darparu’r math yna o wasanaeth ac felly, o bosib, i bobl allu cymdeithasu yn Gymraeg.

(Translation) As the Commissioner stated, we don’t have any evidence or any certainty that the Welsh language is considered in locating prisoners. Clearly, we are not arguing that that should be the main consideration, but it should be part of the formula, if you like, that is used to determine where prisoners are located.

What you are asking perhaps relates to the social use of the Welsh language. We know, for example, that in prisons in Wales, there are more opportunities to use the Welsh language in training and education activities, newspapers, watching S4C, and so forth. Our understanding is that such services are not available in England.

That element of prisoners speaking Welsh among themselves is an interesting one. It is one of the things that I am looking forward to analysing in the interviews that we have held. If you have prisons where there is a mass of Welsh speakers—for example, in north-west England—perhaps that social life is possible in Welsh in those prisons, even though they are located outside Wales. You will hear later from someone who used to be chaplain in HMP Altcourse. That reflects the fact that there are sufficient numbers of Welsh speakers there to provide that kind of service, and therefore possibly for people to be able to socialise in Welsh.

Susan Elan Jones: Diddorol, diolch yn fawr iawn.

(Translation) That is interesting. Thank you.

Q98            Chair: Ms Huws, rydych chi wedi awgrymu bod gwahaniaethau rhwng y gwasanaethau sy’n cael eu darparu mewn carchardai yn Lloegr ac yng Nghymru. Gallwch chi roi enghreifftiau?

(Translation) Ms Huws, you have suggested that there are differences and variations in the services provided in prisons in England and Wales. Could you give us some examples of that?

Meri Huws: Os edrychwch ar Garchar Berwyn, er enghraifft, mae’r gwasanaethau gofal yn cael eu darparu gan awdurdodau lleol o gwmpas ardal Wrecsam. Y bwrdd iechyd sy’n cynnig gwasanaeth i Garchar Berwyn yw Betsi Cadwaladr. Mae Guto hefyd wedi sôn am y ffaith bod y ddarpariaeth addysg yn cael ei darparu ar y cyd gan Coleg Cambria a Novus.

Felly, chi’n cael sefydliadau sy’n gweithredu o dan cyfundrefn safonau o ran y Gymraeg yn darparu gwasanaethau i fewn i Garchar Berwyn. Mae hynny yn golygu bod lefel a natur y gwasanaeth yn mynd i fod yn wahanol o ran y Gymraeg i’r hyn sy’n digwydd y tu allan i Gymru.

(Translation) If you look at HMP Berwyn, for example, the care services are provided by local authorities in the Wrexham area. The local health board—Betsi Cadwaladr—provides the health service for HMP Berwyn. Guto has also talked about the education provision being supplied jointly by Coleg Cambria and Novus.

Therefore, what you get is institutions that operate under the standards regime in terms of the Welsh language, delivering services into HMP Berwyn. That means that, in terms of the Welsh language, the level and nature of the services are going to differ from what goes on outside Wales.

Q99            Chair: Yn ôl y Ddeddf, mae pob carchar—hyd yn oed yn Lloegr—yn gorfod cynnig rhyw fath o wasanaeth sylfaenol yn yr iaith Gymraeg. Oes rhaid iddyn nhw wneud hynny os nad oes neb yn gallu siarad Cymraeg?

(Translation) According to the Act, all prisons, even in England, have to offer some level of service—a minimum Welsh language service. Do they have to do that if there is nobody in the prison who can speak Welsh?

Meri Huws: Mae cynllun iaith HMPPS—oedd yn gynllun iaith i NOMS gynt—yn dweud yn glir bod y profiad i fod yr un fath i garcharor yng Nghymru neu yn Lloegr. Ry’n ni’n casglu ei fod yn haws ac yn fwy sicr o ran darpariaeth y tu fewn i Gymru, oherwydd bod y sefydliadau sydd yn cynnig y gwasanaethau o fewn i’r carchardai yn gweithredu gwasanaethau o ran y Gymraeg.

Y cwestiwn sy’n codi wedyn, wrth gwrs, yw beth yw profiad carcharor y tu fas i Gymru? Wnai ddweud eto: rwy’n poeni’n fawr am fenywod sydd yn gorfod cael eu carcharu y tu allan i Gymru. I ba lefel mae’n nhw’n derbyn y gwasanaeth yna y buasen nhw wedi derbyn pe buasen nhw yng Nghymru? Beth yw effaith hynny arnynt fel unigolion, ond hefyd, ar y berthynas rhyngddyn nhw a’u teuluoedd? Ydyn nhw’n gallu cyfathrebu gyda’u teuluoedd trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg pan maen nhw’n dymuno gwneud hynny? Mae cwynion yn dal i ddod i fewn i’n swyddfa ynglŷn â sefyllfaoedd lle dyw menywod ddim wedi gallu cyfathrebu gyda’u teuluoedd a bod hwnna yn peri pryder a maen nhw’n dioddef oherwydd hynny.

Ar bapur, dylai’r brofiad fod yr un fath. Oes yna sicrwydd o hynny? Dwi ddim yn credu y gallwn ni ddweud hynny.

(Translation) The HMPPS Welsh language scheme—previously the NOMS Welsh language scheme—states clearly that the experience is supposed to be the same for a prisoner in Wales as in England. We conclude that the provision in Wales is easier and more certain because the institutions offering the services into the prisons operate those services in the Welsh language.

The question that then arises is, what is the experience of a prisoner outside Wales? I will say again that I am very concerned about women who have to be incarcerated outside Wales. To what extent do they receive the service they would have received had they been located in Wales? What is the impact of that on them as individuals, and on the relationship between them and their families? Are they are able to communicate with their families through the medium of Welsh when they wish to do so? Complaints are still coming into our office about situations where women have not been able to communicate with their families. That causes concern and they are suffering as a result of that.

On paper, the experience should be the same. Is there a certainty of that? I don’t think we can say that there is. 

Q100       Chair: Felly, ry’ch chi’n credu bod rhaid i ni wneud mwy i sicrhau bod pawb yn gallu cael gwasanaethau trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg mewn carchardai yn Lloegr?

(Translation) Therefore, you think that we have to do more to ensure that everybody can receive a service in the Welsh language in prisons in England?

Meri Huws: Â chymryd bod unigolion o Gymru yn mynd i gael eu carcharu y tu allan i Gymru, oes, dwi’n credu. Pam? Oherwydd bod e’n bwysig. Os dy’n ni o ddifrif mai pwrpas carchar yw sicrhau bod rhywun yn gallu adfer bywyd normal a mynd allan yn hyderus i’r byd, mae angen i ni sylweddoli bod y Gymraeg yn rhan o’r pecyn yna os ydyn nhw eisiau dychwelyd i Gymru.

(Translation) Considering that prisoners from Wales will be located outside Wales, yes, I think so. Why? Because it is important. If we are serious about the purpose of prison being to ensure that somebody can rehabilitate to normal life and go back out confidently to the world, it is important to realise that the Welsh language forms part of that package if they want to return to Wales.

Guto Dafydd: Mae HMPPS wedi ymrwymo i gael gwasanaeth sylfaenol Cymraeg ymhob carchar oherwydd nad oes gennyn nhw y data er mwyn gallu cynllunio o ran lle mae siaradwyr Cymraeg sydd yn garcharorion wedi eu lleoli, a lle mae eu staff nhw sydd yn siarad Cymraeg. Petai’r data ar gael, bydden nhw’n gallu targedu eu gwasanaethau yn llawer gwell.

Agwedd pwysig arall ar leoli carcharorion o ran carcharorion yn mynd allan o Gymru yw eu pethynas hefo’u teulu. Wrth adsefydlu, mae’r gallu i gadw cysylltiad hefo teulu, ac i’r teulu ymweld, yn bwysig iawn. Os yw carcharorion yn mynd yn bellach o’u teulu, mae hynny’n fwy anodd. Mae’n werth nodi yn y cyd-destun yna bod yr ardaloedd lle mae’r canran uchaf o siaradwyr Cymraeg—lle mae pobl yn fwy tebygol o siarad Cymraeg bob dydd—yn tueddu fod tua gogledd-orllewin Cymru, ac felly yn bell o garchardai.

(Translation) The reason why HMPPS is committed to having a basic Welsh service in all prisons is that they don’t have the data to be able to plan where the Welsh-speaking prisoners are located and where the Welsh-speaking staff are located. If the data were available, they would be able to target their services far better.

Another aspect of locating prisoners, which is important for prisoners going out of Wales, is their relationship with their families. The ability to maintain contact with families and families being able to visit and so forth is very important to rehabilitation. If prisoners go further away from their families, that gets more difficult. It is worth noting that the areas where the higher percentages of Welsh speakers are located and people are more likely to be Welsh speaking on a daily basis tend to be towards north-west Wales and therefore far away from prisons.

Q101       Anna McMorrin: HMPPS has stated that it aims to employ a sufficient number of bilingual staff to carry out Welsh language work effectively. In your view, what is that sufficient number? Do you have a number and is there a specific target that should be aimed for? How should the number of bilingual staff be determined?

Meri Huws: Dwi’n credu mai’r cwestiwn yw: sut mae HMPPS yn mynd i ddod i’r penderfyniad yna? Os nad oes ganddyn nhw ddata cadarn am sgiliau ieithyddol eu swyddogion, sut gallen nhw cynllunio gwasanaeth? Os nad oes gyda nhw data cadarn am anghenion ieithyddol eu carcharorion, sut maen nhw’n mynd i gynllunio? Dyna’r sialens, nid rhyw rif. Nid rhyw rif yw’r ateb; mae data hollol gadarn, a chynllunio pwrpasol ar sail hynny, yn angenrheidiol.

Ar y foment, does dim sicrwydd gyda ni bod rhywun sydd yn dweud eu bod nhw’n siarad Gymraeg ac yn dymuno defnyddio’r Gymraeg yn cael eu lleoli yn y Berwyn. Dwi ddim yn credu bod hwnna yn rhan o’r ystyriaeth. Dyna’r math o gynllunio ry’n ni’n sôn am er mwyn sicrhau y defnydd gorau o adnoddau, yn y llefydd iawn i’r pwrpas iawn.

(Translation) I think the question is: how are HMPPS going to come to that decision? If they don’t have robust data around the linguistic skills of their own officers or the linguistic needs of their prisoners, how can they plan the service? That, not some number, is the challenge. I don’t think a number will say, “That is the answer.” What is necessary is absolutely robust data and purposeful planning on the basis of that.

At the moment, there is no certainty that if someone states that they are a Welsh speaker and wish to use the Welsh language, they will be located in HMP Berwyn. I don’t think that that is part of the consideration and that is the kind of planning that we are talking about in order to ensure the best use of resources in the right place for the right purpose.

Q102       Anna McMorrin: Diolch yn fawr. It is an obvious question, but do you think therefore that prisoners are more likely to speak Welsh in prisons where there are more Welsh-speaking staff? Would that encourage non-Welsh speaking prisoners to learn Welsh? Would it be an opportunity to grow the language?

Meri Huws: Bydd hi’n ddiddorol edrych ar y tystiolaeth oddi wrth carcharorion ynglŷn â beth mae awyrgylch Cymraeg a Chymreigaidd yn gwneud iddyn nhw. O edrych ar sefydliadau a sefyllfaodd eraill lle mae pobl yn dewis defnyddio’r Gymraeg, mae’r tystiolaeth yn gryf. Os oes yna naws Cymraeg, weithwyr Cymraeg, bobl yn darparu gwasanaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, mae hynny’n rhoi hyder i unigolion i ddefnyddio’r iaith. Dwi ddim yn credu bod sefyllfa carchar yn wahanol. Os ydych chi’n clywed yr iaith o’ch cwmpas, chi’n mynd i ddefnyddio’r iaith a bod yn hyderus yn gwneud hynny.

Efallai—dwi ddim wedi meddwl am hyn—bod hwnna’n sefyllfa lle fase rhywun yn gallu annog pobl i ddysgu Cymraeg, ac efallai cyrraedd targedau o ran siaradwyr Cymraeg yng Nghymru.

(Translation) It will be interesting to look at the evidence from prisoners on what the Welsh environment does for them. Looking at other institutions and other situations where people chose to use the Welsh language, the evidence is strong: if there is a Welsh feel, if there are Welsh-speaking employees, if there are people delivering services through the medium of Welsh, it gives individuals confidence to use the language. I don’t think the situation of a prison is any different. If you hear the language around you, you are going to use the language and feel confident doing so.

Perhaps—I haven’t thought about this—that may be the situation where somebody may wish to encourage others to learn Welsh, and perhaps reach targets for the numbers of Welsh speakers in Wales.

Chair: Efallai eu bod nhw’n fwy tebygol o siarad Cymraeg os maen nhw’n meddwl bod y swyddogion ddim yn deall beth maen nhw’n dweud.

(Translation) Perhaps they are more likely to speak Welsh if they think that the guards don’t understand what they are talking about.

Guto Dafydd: Un peth baswn i’n ddweud ydy bod gan garcharorion anghenion sydd efallai’n wahanol i’r boblogaeth ar y cyfan. Os ydych chi’n edrych ar anableddau ac anawsterau dysgu, mae gan 7% o garcharorion anabledd dysgu o gymharu â 2% o’r boblogaeth i gyd. Os ydych chi’n edrych ar iechyd meddwl, mae chwarter o’r menywod sydd yn y carchar a 16% o ddynion wedi cael triniaeth am broblem iechyd meddwl yn y flwyddyn cyn mynd i mewn.

O ran yr oedranus, mae poblogaeth carchardai yn heneiddio oherwydd bod dedfrydiau yn mynd yn hirach. Roedd yna astudiaeth yn dangos bod gan 80% o garcharorion dros 60 rhyw fath o gyflwr meddygol cronig neu anabledd. Mae dementia yn broblem gynyddol.

Os ydych chi’n sôn am anghenion penodol carcharorion, efallai baswn ni’n dymuno gweld y gwasanaethau yn dechrau hefo’r anghenion dwys yna. Mae defnyddio eich ail iaith pan ry’ch chi mewn un o’r sefyllfaoedd yna, gydag anawsterau dysgu neu broblemau iechyd meddwl, neu os ydych chi’n berson hŷn, yn gwneud eich bywyd gymaint â hynny yn fwy anodd.

(Translation) One thing I would say is that prisoners have needs that are perhaps different from those of the general population. If you look at disabilities and learning difficulties, 7% of prisoners have a learning disability compared with 2% of the overall population. A quarter of the females in prison and 16% of males had treatment for a mental health problem in the year prior to being incarcerated.

The population of prisoners is getting older because sentences are getting longer. I think there was a study that showed that 80% of prisoners over the age of 60 have some kind of chronic medical condition or a disability. Dementia is an increasing problem.

If you talk about specific needs among prisoners, perhaps we would wish to see the services starting with those intensive needs. When you are in one of those situations, with learning difficulties or mental health problems, or if you are an older person, using your second language makes your life that much more difficult.

Q103       Anna McMorrin: Diolch. I agree with that. I think we are seeing a great pull between what is devolved and non-devolved, and that is perhaps reflected here somewhat. In Berwyn, there have been some voices of concern about the recruitment of Welsh-speaking staff. What are your specific concerns regarding the recruitment process?

Meri Huws: Fel ry’ch chi’n gwybod, pan ddechreuodd Berwyn recriwtio nôl yn 2015-16, gofynwyd cwestiynau. Doedd yna ddim gofynion iaith ar y swyddi hynny. Fe wnaethom ni benderfynu cynnal ymchwiliad o dan Ddeddf yr Iaith Gymraeg 1993, i edrych ar beth oedd y broses a sut roedden nhw wedi penderfynu peidio gofyn am anghenion ieithyddol.

Yr hyn ffeindion ni allan oedd nad oedden nhw fel sefydliad wedi gosod gofynion ieithyddol, ac hefyd, wrth bod nhw’n comisynu gwasanaethau o’r bwrdd iechyd yn benodol, bod nhw ddim wedi gosod gofynion ieithyddol ar y swyddi hynny chwaith. Ro’n ni’n gweld hynny yn gam gwag: roedd e’n groes i’r hyn roedden nhw’n ddweud yn eu cynllun iaith. Roedd e’n colli cyfle sylfaenol ac fe wnaethom ni ysgrifennu adroddiad ar sail hynny.

Mae HMPPS wedi derbyn yr argymhellion i gyd a’u bod nhw wedi colli cyfle, ac maen nhw wedi rhoi sicrwydd i ni eu bod nhw nawr yn edrych ar ofynion ieithyddol wrth recriwtio. Dwi’n credu bod yna gyfle iddyn nhw i edrych ar ffyrdd o recriwtio yn creu strwythurau i sicrhau eu bod nhw yn denu gweithwyr sydd yn gallu defnyddio’r ddwy iaith, neu, os nad ydyn nhw’n gallu defnyddio’r ddwy iaith, eu bod nhw’n hyderus ar y pwynt o gael eu penodi eu bod nhw’n edrych ar y ddarpariaeth yng Nghymru i gryfhau sgiliau ieithyddol eu gweithlu nhw.

(Translation) As you know, when HMP Berwyn began recruitment in 2015-16, there were questions asked. There were no linguistic requirements on those posts. We decided to undertake an inquiry under the Welsh Language Act 1993, to look at the process and how they had determined not to ask for linguistic skills.

We found that, as an institution, they had not imposed linguistic requirements; also, as they had commissioned services from the health board, predominantly, they had not set any linguistic requirements for those posts either. We found that a retrograde step. It was contrary to what they stated in the Welsh language scheme. It was a basic, fundamental opportunity lost, and we wrote a report on that basis.

HMPPS has accepted all the recommendations and that they did lose an opportunity. They have given us an assurance that they now do look at linguistic requirements as they recruit. I think there is an opportunity for them to look at recruitment methods, creating structures to ensure that they attract employees who are able to use both languages or, if they can’t use both languages confidently, that at the point of appointment they are confident to look at the provision that is available in Wales to strengthen their linguistic skills within their workforce.

Guto Dafydd: Maen nhw wedi cymryd camau cadarnhaol. Maen nhw wedi sefydlu gweithgor i roi sylw i recriwtio siaradwyr Cymraeg. Mae’r Gymraeg bellach yn rhan o’u ffurflenni mewnol nhw ar gyfer hysbysebu swyddi gwag. Maen nhw’n galluogi cyfweliadau i ymgeiswyr yn Gymraeg, ac mae pob swydd yng Nghymru yn cynnwys y Gymraeg fel gofyniad dymunol.

O ran dysgu Cymraeg ymhlith staff, maen nhw wedi nodi yn eu hadroddiad monitro bod yna gefnogaeth yn cael ei roi i aelodau staff ddysgu Cymraeg a chael hyfforddiant gloywi iaith ac yn y blaen. Maen nhw hefyd yn darparu cardiau cymorth dwyieithog i’w staff. Dydyn ni ddim yn gwybod beth yw effaith y camau hynny, ond maen nhw wedi ymateb yn gadarnhaol iawn i’r adroddiad wnaeth y Comisynydd ei gyhoeddi.

(Translation) They have taken positive action. They have established a working group to look at the recruitment of Welsh speakers. The Welsh language is now part of their internal forms for advertising vacancies. They enable candidates to have interviews in Welsh and all posts in Wales note Welsh as a desirable skill.

They have stated in their monitoring report that there is support for staff to learn Welsh and have language refresher training and so forth. They also provide bilingual support cards for staff. We don’t know what the impact of those steps is yet, but they have really responded positively to the recommendations made by the Commissioner.

Q104       Liz Saville Roberts: Pa rôl mae’r llywodraethwr yn benodol yn HMP Berwyn ac yn ehangach na hynny yn ei chwarae? Mi wn yn iawn fod yna fyd o wahaniaeth rhwng cynllun iaith Gymraeg ar lefel traws-sefydliadol, a’r gwirionedd i, er enghraifft, bennaeth ysgol. Mae hynny’n golygu bod yna rôl allweddol gan y llywodraethwr. Beth ydy’r rhwngweithio ac i ba raddau byddai llywodraethwr yn gallu gwneud gwahaniaeth o ran y trefniadau recriwtio a’r angen i gael pobl sy’n medru’r Gymraeg?

(Translation) What role does the governor play at HMP Berwyn, and perhaps more broadly than that? I know full well that there is a big difference between a Welsh language scheme at a cross-institutional level, and the reality for, for example, a headteacher. That means there is a key role here for a governor. What are the interfaces here and to what extent would the governor be able to make a difference in terms of the recruitment arrangements and the need for there to be people able to speak Welsh?

Meri Huws: Mae rôl y llywodraethwr yn hollbwysig. Mae rôl pennaeth y gwasanaeth yng Nghymru yn hollbwysig hefyd. Ry’m ni wedi cyfarfod y ddau ohonyn nhw yn ystod y broses. Ry’m ni wedi cwrdd â’r pennaeth newydd yng Nghymru yn gymharol ddiweddar.

Mi fyddwn ni’n cwrdd â’r llywodraethwr fel rhan o’n hymchwil ni. Rhaid gweld sut mae’r hyn sydd ar bapur wedi ei wireddu. Fel sydd yn wir am unrhyw sefydliad, mae’r arweinydd yn hollbwysig. Mae’r hyn sydd ar bapur yn ddiddim os nad yw’r arweinyddiaeth yn credu yn yr hyn sydd yn cael ei ddweud.

(Translation) The role of the governor is vital. The role of the head of service in Wales is vital. We have met both those during the process. We met the new head of service in Wales relatively recently.

We will meet the governor as part of our research to see how what is on paper has been realised. As in any institution or organisation, the leader is vital. What is on paper is worth nothing if the leadership does not believe in what is stated.

Q105       Liz Saville Roberts: Dwi’n gofyn y cwestiwn hwn gyda pharch, ond i ba raddau ydach chi’n meddwl bod yr arweinwyr mewn carchardai yng Nghymru yn llwyddo yn yr agwedd hynny?

(Translation) I ask this question respectfully: to what extent do you think the leaders that we have in prisons in Wales succeed in that regard?

Guto Dafydd: Mae’r Gwasanaeth Carchardai yn adrodd ar eu hymdrechion yn ganolog. Maen nhw wedi sôn wrthym bod yna ymgyrchoedd hyrwyddo ac yn y blaen, a bod yr ymateb i’r rheini yn amrywio mewn gwahanol garchardai. Mae’n debyg bod hynny’n dibynnu ar y carcharorion a staff y carchardai. Does gennym ni ddim gwybodaeth gadarn ynghylch sut mae hyn ym ymwneud â’r arweinwyr.

Mae gennym ni rywfaint o wybodaeth am brofiadau carcharorion oherwydd bod HMPPS yn cynnal grwpiau ffocws ac wedi adrodd y canlyniadau i ni. Beth sydd yn dod allan o’r rheini yw bod yna arferion da yn lleol, ond diffyg cysondeb ar draws sefydliadau.

Cynhaliwyd y grwpiau yn Berwyn ac yn Parc, ond roedd y mynychwyr wedi bod mewn 18 carchar rhyngddyn nhw. Roedd wyth o’r 18 heb y gallu i hyrwyddo’r Gymraeg. Roedd sôn am ddiffygion sylfaenol fel ffurflenni a gwybodaeth ddim ar gael yn Gymraeg. Mae hynny yn achosi dicter ymysg y carcharorion. Roedd yna un sylw bod mynediad at yr iaith ac at ddiwylliant Cymraeg yn teimlo fel ôl-ystyriaeth. Ond mae’n beth cadarnhaol iawn bod HMPPS yn gofyn i’w defnyddwyr am eu barn am wasanaethau. Buasai sefydliadau cyhoeddus eraill yn gallu dysgu o hynny.

(Translation) The Prison Service reports on the endeavours that they make centrally. They have talked to us about campaigns for promotion and so forth. The response to them in different prisons varies, and that seems to be down to the prisoners and to the staff in those prisons. We do not have any information about how that relates to the leadership and so forth.

We have some information about the experiences of the prisoners because HMPPS hold focus groups and have reported the results of them to us. What came out of those was that there were good practices locally but a lack of consistency across the institutions.

The groups were held in HMP Berwyn and Parc, but the attendees had been to 18 prisons in all between them. Eight of those 18 had not been able to promote the ability to speak Welsh. There was mention of fundamental shortcomings where forms and so on were not available in Welsh, which caused some anger among the prisoners. There was one comment that access to the language and culture felt like an afterthought. But it is a positive thing that HMPPS asks its users for their views on services, and other public institutions could learn from that.

Q106       Chris Davies: To follow on from that, do you know how many governors in Wales can speak Welsh?

Meri Huws: Dwi ddim yn ymwybodol bod un ohonyn nhw yn siarad Cymraeg. Does gen i ddim tystiolaeth, ar sail ’mod i ddim wedi gwneud unrhyw arolwg, ond dwi ddim yn ymwybodol bod un ohonyn nhw yn gallu.

(Translation) I am not aware that any of them speak Welsh. I do not have any evidence for that; I say that on the basis that I have not undertaken any review of that, but I am not aware that any of them can.

Q107       Chris Davies: It is an interesting point that if the principal of any organisation spoke Welsh, we would probably see it trickle through, so good point.

Going back to a much earlier point, you said that S4C is watched in prisons. Do we know how much of a take-up there is?

Guto Dafydd: Does gennyn ni ddim ffigyrau gwylio. Mae S4C ar gael mewn carchardai yng Nhymru yn unig, dim yn Lloegr—rydan ni’n gwybod hynny, ond dyna hyd a lled y gwybodaeth.

(Translation) We do not have any viewing figures. S4C is available in prisons in Wales alone, and not in England. We know that, but that is as far as our knowledge goes.

Q108       Chris Davies: Let us not do anything off-piste, Chairman. You mentioned in your evidence that you are not assured as to whether HMPPS has accurate data of Welsh-speaking prisoners and prison staff. What do you need to give you that data and to help things along?

Meri Huws: Mae angen y data arnyn nhw gymaint ag arnon ni er mwyn iddyn nhw gynllunio eu gwasanaethu. Maen nhw wedi nodi yn y Berwyn mai dau garcharor oedd wedi dymuno cael gwasanaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond pan wnaethon nhw gynnal grŵp trafod yn Gymraeg, mynychodd 12 y grŵp. Felly ansicrwydd sydd ynglŷn â data’r carcharorion, a hynny jyst yn y Berwyn.

Faint o Gymry Cymraeg sydd mewn carchardai tu fas i Gymru? Dangosodd darn o waith gan y Gwasanaeth Carchardai yn cysylltu â menywod o Gymru oedd tu allan i Gymru eu bod nhw wedi’u dosbarthu ar draws 10 carchar.

Mae angen gwybodaeth ar y gwasanaeth ynglŷn â natur ieithyddol eu carcharorion, ond mae hefyd angen tystiolaeth arnyn nhw ynglŷn â sgiliau ieithyddol eu gweithlu. Mae angen casglu’r data mewn ffordd soffistigiedig. Mae sefydliadau eraill yng Nghymru erbyn hyn yn gwneud hynny; edrychwch ar y gwasanaeth iechyd sydd yn casglu data ynglŷn â phobl sydd yn gallu cyfathrebu yn Gymraeg, pobl sydd yn hapus i siarad Cymraeg ond sydd efallai ddim yn dymuno ysgrifennu yn Gymraeg, a phobl sydd yn hollol hyderus i wneud y ddau. Dyna’r math o ddata sydd eu eisiau ar HMPPS i sicrhau ei fod yn gallu cynnig gwasanaeth dwyieithog.

(Translation) They need the data as much as we do—to plan their services. In HMP Berwyn, I think they stated that there were two prisoners who wished to receive a service through the medium of Welsh, but when they held a focus group in Welsh, 12 turned up. An uncertainty exists as to the data about the prisoners in the first place—and that is just in Berwyn.

How many Welsh speakers are there in prisons outside Wales? A piece of work that was undertaken by the Prison Service looking at females from Wales located outside Wales showed they were distributed across 10 prisons.

The service needs information about the linguistic nature of their prisoners, but I would also state that they need evidence as to what linguistic skills their workforce has. They need to collect that data in a sophisticated way. By now, other organisations in Wales do so. The health service collects data about people who are able to communicate in Welsh, people who are happy to speak Welsh but perhaps do not want to write in Welsh, and people who are absolutely confident in doing both. That is the kind of data HMPPS needs to make sure that they are able to offer a bilingual service.

Q109       Chris Davies: Going back to statistics, two people wanted to speak Welsh and 12 ended up turning up. Have you drilled down into that? Is that because 12 people wanted to learn Welsh, or were they trying to fill up their time while in prison?

Guto Dafydd: Hwnna oedd grwp trafod, lle roedd y gwasanaeth carchar wedi dod â nhw at ei gilydd er mwyn trafod lefel y gwasanaeth Cymraeg oedd ar gael. Mae’n debyg nad oedd hynny yn adlewyrchu nifer y carcharorion yn y carchar yna. Rydym yn gwybod o’n gwaith efo gwasanaethau eraill bod siaradwyr Cymraeg, er bod gallu siarad Cymraeg wrth cael gwasanaeth wedi arwain at well deilliannau iddyn nhw, ddim yn barod i godi llais a hawlio’r gwasanaeth yna. Dydyn nhw ddim eisiau gwneud niwsans o’u hunain. Efallai nad oedden nhw yn sicr bod y gwasanaeth yna ar gael. Mae’r gwasanaeth prawf hefyd yn cofnodi data dewis iaith. Mewn perthynas â hynny, roedd adroddiad monitro y gwasanaeth carchardai yn nodi bod dim un o’r troseddwyr wedi gofyn am wasanaeth cyfieithu a bod hynny yn dweud wrthyn nhw bod pob un yn gallu siarad a deall Saesneg yn ddigonol. Dydy’r ffaith bod pawb yn gallu deall a siarad Saesneg yn ddigon da er mwyn deall eu swyddog prawf ddim yn golygu mai siarad Saesneg sydd yn mynd i gael y deilliannau gorau i’r unigolyn hwnnw.

(Translation) That was the discussion group where the prison service brought them together to discuss the level of Welsh language service that was available. That apparently does not reflect the number of prisoners in that prison. We know from our work with other services that Welsh speakers, even though the ability to speak Welsh in receiving services may lead to better outcomes for them, are not ready to speak out and claim that service. They do not want to make a nuisance of themselves, or perhaps they are not sure whether that service is going to be available. The probation service also records language preference data and in relation to that there was a monitoring report for the Prison Service which stated that none of the offenders had asked for a translation service and that that told them that everybody could speak and understand English adequately. The fact that everybody is able to understand and speak English well enough to understand their probation officer does not necessarily mean that speaking English is going to secure the best outcome for that individual.

Q110       Chris Davies: I have one last point. We were in Ireland about a month ago. We flew back with the chief executive of S4C, who had been over there promoting languages. I am still unclear about the census. What is the definition of people speaking Welsh? Is it “hello” and “goodbye”, or is it to be able to converse fully, in the census? Evidently, Irish standards and measures were very different from ours. As we have got the Language Commissioner sitting in front of us, what is the definition of people being able to speak Welsh?

Chair: Yn gyflym iawn, os gwelwch yn dda.

(Translation) Very quickly, please.

Meri Huws: Pan mae’n dod at y cyfrifiad, mae pobl yn nodi eu hunan beth yw eu lefel. Hynny yw, dwi ddim mewn sefyllfa—

(Translation) When it comes to the census, people identify themselves what their level is. In other words, I am not in a position to say—

Chair: Self-definition.

Chris Davies: It affects people in prisons as well—it is just a broad question while you are sitting in front of us.

Q111       Liz Saville Roberts: Y realiti o ddefnyddio iaith fel Cymraeg ochr yn ochr gyda iaith fel Saesneg yw bod gennych chi ofn gwneud niwsans o’ch hun ac ofn gofyn am rywbeth dydych chi ddim yn mynd i’w gael. Mae na le i annog pobl. Mae gen i bobl felly yn fy etholaeth. Mae’n amlwg o ran eu teimladau y byddan nhw’n mynegu eu hunain yn well yn Gymraeg ond mae nhw’n gyndyn iawn i ddatgan hynny, yn enwedig mewn cyd-destun fel y carchar, lle mae’n bosib cawn nhw eu bwlio am fod yn siaradwyr Cymraeg. Mae’n nhw’n gyndyn i wneud eu hunain yn wahanol.

Mae hyn yn arwain yn ddigon taclus i’r cwestiwn nesaf sydd gen i. Mae gen i droseddwyr o’n etholaeth sydd o hyd yn cael eu trosglwyddo at garchardai y tu allan i Gymru, i gyd-destun gwbl ddi-Gymraeg. Rydych chi wedi sôn am rhai ohonyn nhw rwan. Eto i gyd, mae carchar ail-fwyaf Ewrop wedi ei adeiladu yn Wrecsam. Mae gennym regime sydd yn gwobrwyo ymddygiad da a rydw i’n ffyddiog byddai nifer ohonyn nhw yn gwneud yn arbennig o dda yno. Ond mae’n categori C. Oes yna le i ni ddefnyddio neu edrych ar Berwyn, sydd ar hyn o bryd yn cael ei lenwi, o bosib, gyda’r carcharorion mwyaf anaddas ar gyfer regime sydd yn gwobrwyo ymddygiad da, oherwydd mae na le yno a mae HMP Lerpwl yn methu ymdopi? Gwelon ni hynny pan oeddem ni yno—fe welon ni fan yn cyrraedd. Oes yna le i edrych ar ddarpariaeth penodol o fewn sefydliad o faint Berwyn, beth bynnag yw’r categori, o fewn reswm?

(Translation) The reality of using a language such as Welsh alongside English means that you’re afraid to make a nuisance of yourself; you’re afraid to ask for something that you are not necessarily going to get. There is room to encourage people. I have got people like that in my constituency. It is clear from their feelings that they would express themselves better in Welsh but they are very reluctant to state that, particularly in the context of a prison, where possibly they are going to be bullied because they are Welsh speakers. They are very reluctant to make themselves different.

That takes me quite neatly on to my next question. I have offenders from my constituency who are still sent to prisons outside Wales, to a completely non-Welsh context. You have already mentioned some of them. Yet, we have the second biggest prison built in Wrexham. We have got a regime that rewards good behaviour and I am confident that a number of them would do particularly well there. But it is a category C. Is there room for us to be using or looking at Berwyn—which currently is being filled, possibly, by the most inappropriate prisoners for a regime that rewards good behaviour, because they have got space and HMP Liverpool cannot cope? We saw that ourselves when we were there—we saw a van arriving. Is there scope for us to look at specific provision within an institution of the size of Berwyn, regardless of its category, within reason?

Chair: Susan Elan Jones, byddech chi’n hoffi dod i fewn hefyd?

(Translation) Susan Elan Jones, would you like to come in?

Q112       Susan Elan Jones: Just pwynt sydyn iawn. Dwi’n credu bod yna rhai carcharorion categori B sydd ddim yna hyd yn hyn ond y byddan nhw’n dwad i Berwyn hefyd.

(Translation) Just a quick point. I think there are some category B prisoners who are not there yet but they are going to come into Berwyn as well.

Meri Huws: Roeddem ni wedi gobeithio, gydag adeiladu Berwyn, y byddai lle i edrych ar ddarpariaeth fwy cynhwysfawr a fwy soffistigedig. Yr hyn oedd yn cael ei ddweud, wrth i Berwyn cael ei ddatblygu, oedd y byddai elfen o fod yn garchar i Gymru. Dydw i ddim yn siwr bod hwnna wedi cael ei wireddu a dyna lle rydym ni nawr. Mae eisiau cymryd y cam nesaf tuag at beth yw’r gwasanaeth.

Rydych chi wedi sôn am ddefnydd iaith a dewis iaith pobl. Fel rydych chi’n gwybod, rydym ni wedi gwneud lot o waith yn y maes iechyd, a’r patrwm roeddwn ni’n gweld yn rheolaidd oedd pobl yn dweud “Sa i di gofyn am wasanaeth”, “O’n i ddim eisiau ypseto” a, “O’n i ddim yn sicr bydden i’n deall y Gymraeg chwaith.” Ond pan mae’r ddarpariaeth yna o ran gwasanaeth, mae’r camu ymlaen—y gwella sy’n digwydd—oherwydd bod rhywun yn derbyn y gwasanaeth trwy gyfrwng ei iaith ei hun yn glinigol sylweddol. Mae’r un fath o neges i’w gyfleu o ran carcharorion. Mae’n gorfod bod yn un o’r ystyriaethau os rydym ni o ddifrif ynglŷn â gweld pobl yn symud ymlaen yn eu bywydau.

(Translation) We had hoped, with the building of Berwyn, that there would be room to look at a more comprehensive, more sophisticated provision. It was stated, when Berwyn was being developed, that there was an element of it being a prison for Wales. I am not entirely sure that that has been realised. That is where we are currently. We need to take the next step on what the service is.

You have talked about language use and people’s language preference. As you know, we have done a lot of work in health, and the pattern we regularly saw was that of people saying, “I haven’t asked for a service”, “I didn’t want to upset anybody” and “I wasn’t sure I would understand the Welsh either.” When the provision is made in terms of a service, the progress made—the improvement that occurs—because somebody receives the service through the medium of their own language is clinically significant. The same message is conveyed in terms of prisoners. It has to be one of the considerations if we are serious about seeing people moving forward in their lives.

Q113       Ben Lake: Rwy’n credu bod ni wedi cyfro’r cwestiwn olaf. Rwy’n credu ein bod ni wedi cael yr ateb, ond er mwyn bod yn gwbl glir: chi wedi sôn am y diffyg data sydd gan HMPPS, felly byddai’n deg dweud, heblaw bod nhw hefyd yn cael gafael ar y data yna, mae’n galed iawn iddyn nhw i wir gyflawni’r nôd o sicrhau bod y Gymraeg a’r Saesneg yn cael eu trin yn gyfartal. Ydy hynny’n ddigon teg?

(Translation) I think we have covered the final question. We have heard the answer, but perhaps to be absolutely clear: you talked about the lack of data held by HMPPS, so it is fair to say that if they do not get hold of that data it is very difficult for them to really achieve the aim of ensuring that the Welsh and English languages are treated equally. Is that fair?

Meri Huws: Mae hynny’n ddigon teg.

(Translation) That is fair.

Chair: Diolch yn fawr iawn i Ms Huws a Guto Dafydd am ddod i fewn.

(Translation) Thank you very much to Ms Huws and Guto Dafydd for coming in.

Meri Huws: Byddwn ni’n cyhoeddi ein hadroddiad ni yn yr hydref. Dwi’n gwybod bod eich amserlen chi’n wahanol, ond mi fyddwn ni yn darparu hynny i aelodau’r Pwyllgor yma o ran diddordeb.

(Translation) We will publish our report in the autumn. I know that your timetable is different, but we will provide that for the members of the Committee for interest.

Chair: Gobeithio byddwn ni wedi cynhyrchu adroddiad erbyn mis Hydref, ond pwy a ŵyr? Mae’n llai dadleuol na Brexit, felly mae’n bosib byddwn ni wedi dod allan â rhywbeth erbyn hynny. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi.

(Translation) Hopefully we will have produced a report by October, but who knows? It is less controversial than Brexit, so it is possible that we will have brought something out by then. Thank you very much indeed.

Examination of witness

Witness: Parchedig/Reverend Nan Powell-Davies

Chair: Galla i groesawu’r Parchedig Nan Powell-Davies? Diolch yn fawr am ddod yma heddiw i ateb ychydig o gwestiynau am y sefyllfa mewn carchardai. Rydym ni’n gwybod bod llawer iawn o brofiad gyda chi.

(Translation) May I welcome Reverend Nan Powell-Davies? Thank you very much for coming here today to answer some questions about the situation in prisons. We know that you have a lot of experience.

Q114       Tonia Antoniazzi: How important is it to have English and Welsh-speaking chaplaincy services in Welsh prisons?

Parchedig/Reverend Nan Powell-Davies: Cyn cychwyn dweud dim byd arall, mae’r dystiolaeth fy mod i yma o dan eich gwahoddiad chi—diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am y gwahoddiad—yn dangos llawer mewn gwirionedd. Mae yna chwe blynedd ers i mi fod yn gaplan yng Ngharchar Altcourse yn Lerpwl. Yn anffodus, doedd yna ddim cyfle i chi ofyn i gaplan Cymraeg arall, oherwydd fi oedd y caplan Cymraeg olaf i fod mewn unrhyw garchar o unrhyw wasanaeth i unrhyw garcharor o Gymru. Dwi’n ymddiheurio am hynny, ond dyna ydy’r sefyllfa, felly wnewn ni gychwyn yn fan’na.

I ateb eich cwestiwn, pa mor bwysig ydy cael caplan? Natur caplan yw argaeledd bob amser. Fy nymuniad heddiw yw i rannu fy mhrofiad—rhannu stori ydw i mewn gwirionedd. Roeddwn i’n gaplan yn y carchar am wyth mlynedd, felly mi ges i sawl profiad, rhai ohonyn nhw’n brofiadau melys iawn a rhai ohonyn nhw’n chwerw. Roedden nhw’n chwerw oherwydd y diffyg oedd yna i ddeall y Gymraeg a chenedligrwydd oddi fewn i’r carchar.

I fynd yn ôl at y cwestiwn, natur caplaniaeth ydy argaeledd—bod ar gael—ac mae yna gaplan ymhob carchar yng Nghymru a Lloegr ar gael 24 awr, saith diwrnod yr wythnos trwy’r flwyddyn. Felly fel caplan, mae’n bwysig iawn bod rhywun ar gael. Hefyd, rhaid i gaplan adnabod yr angen sydd gan yr unigolyn. Mae’n gyfle gwych oddi fewn i garchar i ddod i adnabod rhywun ac i dreulio amser efo nhw oherwydd mae llawer fwy o ryddid gan gaplan na sawl aelod arall o’r staff. Yn y blynyddoedd cynnar, roeddwn i’n troi fyny i’r carchar mewn beth fasech chi’n disgwyl i weinidog wisgo, sef coler gron, ond erbyn y diwedd, doeddwn i ddim yn gwneud hynny—roeddwn i’n gwisgo fy nillad fy hun. Felly roeddwn i’n cynrychioli fy hun ond hefyd y ffydd Gristnogol.

Fel caplan Cymraeg, faswn i hefyd yn dweud os ydych chi’n adnabod angen ac yn ceisio edrych ar y person yn gyflawn, rydych chi’n edrych hefyd ar eu hangen ieithyddol yn ogystal â’u hanghenion eraill. Mewn gwirionedd, dyna pam rwy’n hynod o falch o gael bod yma heddiw yn rhannu efo chi. Mae’r angen am gaplan Cymraeg yn enfawr, ac roedd yn siom fawr nad oedd CEM Berwyn, pan yn hysbysebu, wedi pwysleisio’r angen bod o leiaf un o’r caplaniaid â’r gallu i siarad Cymraeg.

(Translation) Before I say anything else, the fact that I am here today by your invitation—and I am very grateful for the invitation—in itself speaks volumes. It is six years since I was chaplain in Altcourse Prison in Liverpool. Unfortunately, there was no opportunity for you to ask any other Welsh chaplain, because I was the last Welsh chaplain to be in any prison providing any service to any prisoner from Wales. I apologise for that, but that is the situation. So we will start there.

To answer your question, how important is it to have a chaplain? The nature of a chaplain is to be available at all times. I wish to share my experience with you—I am actually sharing a story. I was prison chaplain for eight years, so I had several experiences. Some of these were sweet, and others were bitter. They were bitter because of the lack of understanding around the Welsh language and nationality in the prison.

To return to your question, the nature of the chaplaincy is to do with being available. There is a chaplain available in all prisons in Wales and England 24 hours a day, seven days a week, all year. As a chaplain, it is very important that someone is available. A chaplain also has to identify the individual’s need. It is a fantastic opportunity in a prison for you to get to know someone and spend time with them. A chaplain has far more freedom than many other members of staff. In the early years, I would turn up at the prison in what you would expect a minister to wear, a white collar, but by the end, I wasn’t doing that—I wore my own clothes. I therefore represented myself, but I also represented the Christian faith.

As a Welsh chaplain, I would also say that in identifying a person’s need, if you seek to look at a person as a whole, you are also looking at their linguistic need as well as their other needs. That is why I am pleased to be here to share my experience with you. The need for a Welsh-speaking chaplain is absolutely huge, and it is very disappointing that HMP Berwyn, when it advertised, did not emphasise the need for at least one of the chaplains to have the ability to speak Welsh.

Q115       Tonia Antoniazzi: How can prisons ensure that Welsh speakers of all religions have access to Welsh-speaking clerics? How challenging would that be to achieve?

Parchedig/Reverend Nan Powell-Davies: Dwi ddim yn meddwl bod o’n sialens enfawr, oherwydd dyna oedd y sefyllfa yng Ngharchar Altcourse. Un o’r cwestiynau rydych chi’n gofyn pan mae rhywun yn cyrraedd y carchar yw, “Ydych chi’n arddel unrhyw grefydd penodol?” Canran fechan iawn oedd yn dweud eu bod nhw’n Gristnogion, a chanran fechan iawn oedd yn dweud eu bod nhw angen caplan eglwys rydd. I’r eglwys rydd rwy’n perthyn—Eglwys Bresbyteraidd Cymru ac yn cynrychioli’r Eglwys honno. Roedd y rhan heliw—mi dybiwn bod hynny wedi cynyddu—yn arddel dim crefydd o gwbl, ond dydy hynny ddim yn golygu nad yw’r gaplaniaeth ar eu cyfer nhw. Mae’r gaplaniaeth ar gyfer pawb, bob amser.

Dwi ddim yn meddwl bod hynny yn gwneud gwahaniaeth gan fod gan gaplan gyfrifoldebau eraill. Un o’r rhai oedd gen i yn ystod fy nghyfnod yn y carchar oedd asesu pa mor fregus a pha mor debygol o gyflawni hunanladdiad neu hunan-niweidio ac yn y blaen oedd pobl. Roeddwn i’n hynod ddiolchgar fy mod i wedi cael yr hyfforddiant hynny pan welais i rai o’r Cymry yn fregus iawn, ac roeddwn i’n gallu cynnig yr asesiad a’r cyngor drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.

(Translation) I do not think that it is a huge challenge, because that was the situation at Altcourse Prison. One of the questions you ask when someone comes into the prison is, “Do you follow any particular religion or faith?” A very small percentage of prisoners who came into the prison said they were Christian, and a very small percentage said they needed a chaplain who was of the free church. I belong to the free church—I belong to the Presbyterian Church of Wales and I represent that Church. The majority—and I imagine that has increased—had no faith at all, but that does not mean that the chaplaincy is not for them. The chaplaincy is for everybody at all times.

I do not think that really makes any difference, because a chaplain has other responsibilities. One of the responsibilities I had during my period at the prison was to assess how vulnerable people were and how likely they were to attempt suicide, to self-harm and so forth. When I saw some of the very vulnerable Welsh prisoners, I was extremely grateful that I had had that training and that I could offer them advice and assessment through the medium of Welsh.

Q116       Liz Saville Roberts: Mae’n rhaid bod chi wedi cael profiad o siarad gyda charcharorion am eu profiadau o fod yn siaradwyr Cymraeg mewn carchardai. Fasech chi’n barod i rannu rhywfaint o’u profiadau—yr hyn mae nhw wedi dweud wrthych chi?

(Translation) You must have had experience of speaking to prisoners about their experiences of being Welsh speakers in prisons. Would you be willing to share with us some of the experiences they told you about?

Parchedig/Reverend Nan Powell-Davies: Baswn. Wna i fod yn berffaith onest hefo chi: roedd yr hyn glywais i ar sawl achlysur yn arswydus. Dwi ddim yn mynd i rannu pob dim achos does dim digon o oriau yn y dydd i ni rannu popeth, ond faswn i’n leicio rhannu dau stori hefo chi.

Dwi’n cofio mynd i adain yng Ngharchar Altcourse, ac roedd criw o Gymry yno. Gyda llaw, does gen innau ‘chwaith ddim ystadegau. Does dim modd monitro faint o Gymry Cymraeg sydd yn ein carchardai, ac os na ddaw unrhywbeth arall o’n cyfarfod heddiw, hoffwn danlinellu mai mater syml iawn yw casglu’r data hynny. Mater syml, wedi cael y data, yw ymateb iddo.

Ar un achlysur, dwi’n cofio mynd i fewn i un o’r adeiniau a roedd criw o Gymry uwchben y grisiau—efallai pedwar neu bump ohonyn nhw. O’r trafodaeth clywais i, roedden nhw’n sôn am angladd rhywun yng ngogledd Cymru—yn sôn am y teulu a’r amgylchiadau ac yn rhannu sgwrs yn berffaith agored ac yn berffaith syml. Ond roedd yr ymateb a ddaeth o’r desg ar yr adain yn ffiaidd. Dywedon nhw, “Dewch lawr y grisiau rwan; dwi wedi cael llond bol ohonoch chi yn creu gang ar y grisiau ac yn siarad amdanom ni drwy’r amser”. Dwi’n cofio dweud, “Peidiwch a tybio bod nhw’n siarad amdanoch chi. Dydyn nhw ddim yn wneud y fath peth. Mae nhw’n trafod angladd sydd yn digwydd yng ngogledd Cymru”. Roedd yr ymateb cês i o’r swyddog hefyd yn bur fygythiol.

Doedd yna ddim cydnabyddiaeth i’r Cymraeg. A dweud y gwir, roedd gorthrwng yn cael ei ddangos tuag at y Cymry yn ystod y gyfnod roeddwn i yno. Fi oedd yr unig aelod of staff oedd yn gallu siarad Cymraeg yng Ngharchar Altcourse. Pryd hynny, roedd yn garchar categori B, gyda tua 1,200 o droseddwyr ifanc, rhai ohonynt ar fechnïaeth, a roedd yn garchar ar gyfer oedolion ar ôl iddyn nhw gael eu dedfrydu. Baswn yn rhagdybio—a hynny ar ôl ryw ymchwil bach hynod o naïf a lwyddais i’w wneud yn yr ychydig amser treuliais i yno—bod tua 10% o’r boblogaeth yn Gymry Cymraeg. Rydw i’n gallu dweud hynny oherwydd fy mod i’n gallu clywed, fel Cymraes, beth oedd yn cael ei siarad ar fuarth y carchar, yn yr adeiniau ac yn y llefydd gwaith.

Pan mae rhywun yn cychwyn mewn gwaith, efallai maen nhw’n naïf ac yn awyddus i drio achub y byd a gwneud bob dim sy’n bosib. Pryd hynny, roeddwn i’n rhoi gwersi Cymraeg i’r swyddogion yn ystod fy awr ginio. Roeddwn i’n darparu ac yn prynu llyfrau Cymraeg i’r llyfrgell er mwyn gwneud yn siwr bod llyfrau ar gyfer y carcharorion. Un o’r pethau oedd yn fy syfrdanu oedd bod yr adran ddiogelwch yn fy ngofyn i sgrinio rhai o’r llythyrau. Roeddwn i’n anfodlon iawn gwneud hynny. Darllenais i ddim byd a oedd yn fygythiad i neb yn unlle ond mi glywais i am rhai o’r carcharorion oedd ddim yn cael eu llythyrau. Roedden nhw yn gwybod eu bod wedi’u postio wythnosau—mewn rhai achosion misoedd—ynghynt. Felly, mi roedd hynny’n broblem.

Dwi’n mynd i orffen efo un stori arall. Roedd carcharor ifanc o ogledd-orllewin Cymru yn berson bregus tu hwnt. Gofynnodd os oeddwn yn gallu cyfieithu iddo er mwyn iddo fynegu ei hun more glir ac mor onest ag oedd yn gallu mewn adroddiad seiciatryddol a oedd yn cael ei wneud amdano. Roedd hyn yn brofiad emosiynol, achos daeth rhywun i wybod pa mor fregus oedd. Doeddwn i ddim yn teimlo fy mod i’n gwneud cyfiawnder â fo. Dwi’n meddwl ei fod hi’n gywilyddus ein bod ni mewn sefyllfa bryd hynny gyda hogyn ifanc mor fregus a’i unig gyfle i fynegu ei hun a chael unrhyw help oedd pan oeddwn i yno fel caplan. Doedd y carchar ddim yn fodlon fy nghyflogi i am fwy nag 20 awr, ond dryw ras a haelioni Eglwys Bresbyteraidd Cymru, roeddwn i’n gallu bod yno am fwy o oriau na hynny. Dwi’n gobeithio bod yr ychydig dystiolaeth hynny yn rhoi rhywfaint bach o oleuni i chi.

(Translation) Yes, I would. I will be absolutely honest with you: on several occasions, what I heard was horrifying. I am not going to share everything, because there are not enough hours in the day for me to do that, but there are two particular stories I would like to share with you.

I remember going into a wing at Altcourse Prison where there was a group of Welsh speakers. By the way, I do not have any statistics either. It is not possible to monitor how many Welsh speakers there are in our prisons. If nothing else comes from our meeting today, I would like to underline that collecting and then responding to that data is a very simple matter.

On one occasion, I remember going into one of the wings and there was a group of Welsh speakers at the top of the stairs—there may have been four or five of them. From what I heard, they were talking about somebody’s funeral in north Wales, the family and the circumstances. They were just sharing a conversation perfectly openly and simply. But the response that came from the desk on the wing was disgusting. They said, “Come downstairs right now. I’m fed up with you creating a gang up there on the stairs and talking about us all the time”. I remember saying, “Don’t presume that they are talking about you, because they are not doing any such thing. They are discussing a funeral that is taking place in north Wales”. The response I got from the officer was quite intimidating.

There was no recognition of the Welsh language. To be honest, there was oppression shown towards the Welsh people during the time that I was there. I was the only member of staff who could speak Welsh in HMP Altcourse. It was a category B prison at that time for around 1,200 young offenders, some of whom were on bail. It was also an adult prison once they had been sentenced. From some quite naive research that I managed to do in the little time that I spent there, I imagine that around 10% of that population were Welsh speakers. The reason I can say that is that, as a Welsh speaker, I could hear what language was spoken out on the yard, in the wings and in the work areas.

When you start a job, you may be naive and eager to try to save the world and to do everything within your ability. At that time, I provided Welsh lessons for officers during my lunch hour, and I distributed and bought Welsh books for the library, to make sure that there were books available to the prisoners. But it astounded me that the security department would ask me to screen some of the letters. I was very unwilling to do that. I never read anything that was a threat to anyone, but I heard that some prisoners did not receive their letters. They knew that they had been posted to them weeks—and sometimes months—in advance. That was a problem.

I will conclude with another story. A young prisoner from north-west Wales, who was a very vulnerable young person, asked if I could translate for him so that he could express himself as clearly and honestly as he possibly could in a psychiatric assessment that was undertaken of him. It was a really emotional experience, because you got to know how vulnerable he was. I did not feel that I could do him justice, and I think it is shameful that we were in that situation at that time, where the only opportunity a young boy who was so vulnerable had to express himself and get any help was when I, the chaplain, was there. The prison was willing to employ me only for 20 hours, but by the grace and generosity of the Presbyterian Church of Wales, I was able to be there for more hours. I hope that that bit of evidence sheds some light for you.

Q117       Susan Elan Jones: Diolch yn fawr iawn am ddod heddiw. Rydych chi wedi sôn am ddiffyg caplaniaid sy’n medru’r Gymraeg. Ydych chi’n credu dylai’r Eglwysi a’r grwpiau crefyddol wneud rhywbeth am hyn? Yn yr ardal lle dwi’n byw, mae sawl plwyf heb weinidog sy’n medru’r Gymraeg. Mae hynny’n broblem mewn rhai ardaloedd yng ngogledd Cymru. Dylai’r enwadau wneud rhywbeth am y sefyllfa?

(Translation) Thank you very much for attending today. When you talk about the lack of chaplains able to speak Welsh, do you think that the Churches and faith groups should do something about that? Thinking about the area where I live, several parishes do not have a minister who can speak Welsh. That is a problem in certain areas in north Wales. Do you think that the denominations should do something about that?

Parchedig/Reverend Nan Powell-Davies: Diolch am y cwestiwn—

(Translation) Thank you for that question—

Susan Elan Jones: Nid fy nghwestiwn ffurfiol i yw e; rwy’n ei ofyn fel un o’r Eglwys yng Nghymru.

(Translation) It is not formally my question, by the way, but one I ask from the Church in Wales.

Parchedig/Reverend Nan Powell-Davies: Dwi’n cytuno: mae’n ddyletswydd arnom ac yn hollol ganolog i neges y Beibl. Mae Mathew 25 yn dweud wrthym am ymweld â’r carcharorion, felly mae’n ffordd ein bod ni fel Cristnogion yn ymateb. Er fy mod i’n cytuno hefo chi, cyfrifoldeb y Llywodraeth yw gwneud yn siwr fod yna gaplan, ac fod yna gaplan Cymraeg er mwyn i’n Cymry Cymraeg gael cyfle i gael y gofal hwnnw drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Rwy’n cytuno’n llwyr hefo’r hyn rydych chi wedi dweud.

(Translation) I agree with you. I think there is a duty and, to be honest, it is absolutely central to the message conveyed in the Bible—Matthew 25 tells us that we are to visit prisons. It is a way in which we as Christians respond. Even though I agree with you, it is the responsibility of the Government to ensure that there is a Welsh-speaking chaplain so that our Welsh speakers can receive that care through the medium of Welsh. But I totally agree with what you have stated.

Q118       Susan Elan Jones: Diddorol. Rydyn ni wedi cael tystiolaeth am ddiffyg gwasanaethau yn y Gymraeg yn ein carchardai. Rydych chi wedi sôn dipyn bach am hyn, ond beth ydych chi’n meddwl yw’r effaith ar y carcharorion?

(Translation) That is interesting. We have heard evidence about a lack of services in Welsh in our prisons. I know you have talked a little about it, but what do you think is the impact on those within our prisons?

Parchedig/Reverend Nan Powell-Davies: Pan rydyn ni’n sôn am adfer ac ail-sefydlu troseddwyr yn ôl yn ein cymunedau, mae yna feysydd arbenning sydd yn bwysig ymdrin â nhw yn ystod y cyfnod yn y carchar. Roeddwn i’n hynod o falch o fod yma yn y drafodaeth flaenorol. Mae’r meysydd yn cynnwys byd addysg—clywsom yn y drafodaeth flaenorol bod 7% o garcharorion ag anawsterau neu anableddau dysgu; mae addysg felly’n hanfodol. Pan mae rhywun yn meddwl am, er enghraifft, ddyslecsia, mae Cymraeg yn iaith ffonetig, ac mae Saesneg yn hollol wahanol. Mae’n gallu bod yn anodd iawn i garcharor ag anawsterau dysgu fynegi’i hun yn ysgrifenedig drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg. Does dim ystyriaeth i hynny os nad yw’r addysg yn cael ei gyflwyno drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.

Mae iechyd yn fater arall. Rydan ni’n cymryd ein iechyd yn ganiataol. Clywsom fod chwarter o garcharorion mewn carchardai i ferched wedi cael rhyw fath o driniaeth at iechyd meddwl. Welais i broblemau iechyd meddwl sawl gwaith. Er enghraifft, doedd y bachgen ifanc soniais amdano o ogledd-orllewin Cymru ddim yn gallu mynegi ei hun yn ddigonol drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg i seiciatrydd.

Rydyn ni’n ymwybodol bod troseddau yn cael eu cyflawni yng Nghymru o dan ddylanwad alcohol a chyffuriau eraill, felly mae’r ffordd rydan ni’n ymdrin â dibyniaeth yn hanfodol. Dylai hynny hefyd gael ei wneud drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.

Wrth ystyried ail-sefydlu, rydyn ni’n ymwybodol o broblem digartrefedd. O’m mhrofiad i chwe blynedd yn ôl yn y carchar, pan roedd carcharorion yn cael eu rhyddhau yn ôl i ogledd Cymru, roedd rhaid iddynt fynd i lety am 28 diwrnod. A yw hynny dal yn wir? Rwy’n anwybodus am hyn—cewch chi fy ngoleuo, neu does gennych chi ddim y wybodaeth yna?

(Translation) When we talk about rehabilitation, turning people around and getting offenders back into our communities, there are particular issues, and it is very important that we deal with them during people’s time in prison. I was very pleased to hear the earlier discussion. The areas include education—we heard that 7% of prisoners have learning difficulties and disabilities, so education is a vital thing. Welsh is a phonetic language—English is very different from it—and perhaps it is very difficult for a dyslexic prisoner, for example, to express themselves in writing through the medium of English. No account whatever is taken of that if the education is not presented through the medium of Welsh.

Another matter is health. We take our health for granted. We heard that a quarter of prisoners in women’s prisons are received some kind of treatment for mental health difficulties. Several times I have seen people with mental health problems, such as the young man from north-west Wales I spoke about earlier. He could not express himself adequately through the medium of English to a psychiatrist.

I am also very aware that offences are committed in Wales under the influence of alcohol and other drugs. Therefore, the way in which we deal with dependency during the period of incarceration is important. That, too, is something that should be done through the medium of Welsh.

If we think about rehabilitation, we must be aware of the problem of homelessness. Six years ago—I am ignorant of the information, so perhaps you will enlighten me—when prisoners were released back to north Wales, they had to be released into accommodation for 28 days. Is that still the case? Perhaps you do not have that information.

Q119       Chair: Does gennym ni ddim carchar i fenywod yng Nghymru. Ydy hynny’n cael unrhyw fath o effaith negyddol ar fenywod sy’n siarad Cymraeg ac sy’n mynd i garchar yn Lloegr?

(Translation) We do not have a women’s prison in Wales. Does that have any kind of negative impact on Welsh-speaking women who go to prisons in England?

Parchedig/Reverend Nan Powell-Davies: Alla i ddod nôl at hynny? Dwi just eisau gorffen fy mhwynt. Y meysydd roeddwn i’n sôn amdanynt—y pethau anghenrheidiol—ydy addysg, iechyd, iechyd meddwl, sut rydym ni’n ymdrin â dibyniaeth, sut rydym ni’n ailgartrefu pobl, a pherthynas. Rydym wedi clywed lot am berthynas teuluoedd gyda’i gilydd. Mae hwnna’n peri gofid mawr iawn.

Er enghraifft, tasech chi ddim â car a’ch bod chi eisiau mynd o Aberdaron ym mhen draw Llŷn i Garchar Berwyn, y tebygolrwydd ydy mai nid yng Ngharchar Berwyn y basech chi’n cael eich gosod. Os ydych chi newydd gael eich dedfrydi, y tebygolrwydd ydy eich bod chi’n gorfod mynd i garchar categori B. Os ydych chi’n oedolyn ac yn ddyn, rydych chi’n fwy na thebyg wedi cael eich lleoli yng Ngharchar Altcourse. Os ydych chi’n ferch, rydych chi wedi cael eich lleoli ym Manceinon, yng Ngharchar Styal neu yn Drake Hall. Os ydych chi’n droseddwr ifanc, pwy a ŵyr lle rydych chi wedi cael eich gosod?

(Translation) I will come back to that; I just want to conclude on the earlier point, because the areas I was talking about are the necessary things here—education, health, mental health, how we deal with dependency, how we rehouse people, and relationships. We have heard a lot about family relationships. That really causes a lot of concern.

Take, for example, if you have no car and someone wants to go from Aberdaron at the far end of the Llŷn peninsula to HMP Berwyn, the likelihood is that a prisoner who has just been sentenced would not be placed in HMP Berwyn so they would have to go to a category B prison. A male adult is more likely to be located in Altcourse. A woman will be located in Manchester, in Styal prison or Drake Hall. If you are a young offender, goodness knows where you will be placed.

Q120       Chair: Oes rhaid i ni adeiladu mwy o garchardai, felly, i sicrhau bod menywod a dynion yn gallu bod mewn carchar yn agos at eu cartrefi?

(Translation) Do we have to build more prisons to ensure that men and women can be located close to their homes?

Parchedig/Reverend Nan Powell-Davies: O feddwl mai Carchar Berwyn yw’r carchar ail fwyaf yn Ewrop—ry’m ni wedi clywed hyn eisioes—y siom ydy nad ydy o’n garchar ddigon pwrpasol ar gyfer ein anghenion ni nac yn arbennig ar gyfer anghenion y Cymry Cymraeg sydd yn cael eu carcharu fel troseddwyr ifanc ac fel dynion a menywod.

(Translation) We have already heard this: considering that HMP Berwyn is the second largest prison in Europe, the disappointment is that it does not meet the needs of men and women, and young offenders, who are incarcerated, and especially the needs of Welsh speakers.

Q121       Chair: Mae llywodraethwr Berwyn yn bositif iawn am y lle ac yn dweud ei fod e’n lot gwell nag unrhyw garchar arall ym Mhrydain.

(Translation) The governor in Berwyn was very positive and said that it was far better than any other prison in Britain.

Parchedig/Reverend Nan Powell-Davies: Mae’n rhaid i chi dderbyn fy ymddiheuriad: fel dwi’n dweud, rhywbeth hanesyddol ydw i. Dydw i ddim wedi bod yng Ngharchar Berwyn. Dwi ddim yn gallu ateb dros Garchar Berwyn a dwi’n ymddiheurio i chi am hynny. Er hynny, ddaru fi ffonio Carchar Berwyn i geisio cael rhywfaint o wybodaeth ddoe, ond yn anffodus roedd y neges ar y peiriant ateb yn uniaith Saesneg. Pan wnes i fynd drwadd i’r dderbynfa, doedd yna neb oedd yn gallu siarad Cymraeg hefo fi chwaith. Er bod fy ngwybodaeth i o Berwyn yn ddim byd mewn gwirionedd, mae hwnna’n wybodaeth gyfredol o fewn y 24 awr diwethaf.

(Translation) You have to accept my apology. As I say, I am talking historically. I have not been to HMP Berwyn. I cannot answer and speak for it. I apologise to you for that, but I phoned HMP Berwyn to try to get some information yesterday and unfortunately, the message on the answering machine was only in English. When I was put through to reception, nobody was able to speak Welsh to me either. Even though my information and knowledge of Berwyn is scant, that information is up to date from the last 24 hours.

Q122       Chair: Yn ôl at fy mhwynt cyntaf, beth am garchar menywod newydd yng Nghymru? Oes angen adolygu hynny a chael rhyw fath o garchar newydd ar gyfer menywod?

(Translation) To go back to my first point, what about a new women’s prison in Wales? Do we need to review that and have some sort of new women’s prison?

Parchedig/Reverend Nan Powell-Davies: Wrth gwrs. Ro’n i’n sôn wrthych am berthynas teuluoedd gyda’u gilydd—nid fy mod i’n dweud bod perthynas tad neu mam yn wahanol; mae angen i bawb gael cyswllt â’r teulu, ond yn sicr mi oedd rhywun yn ymwybodol bod y sôn am ferched yn llawer iawn tawelach nag oedd o am ddynion. Dwi’n gwybod pam—oherwydd bod y canran o ferched sydd yn ein carchardai ni’n llawer iawn yn is na’r canran o ddynion—ond mae’r angen yn llawer iawn fwy dybryd.

Bues i’n ymweld â charchardai i ferched. Er ar y pryd roeddwn i’n cael fy nghyflogi gan y Llywodraeth a G4S i weithio yng Ngharchar Altcourse, roeddwn i hefyd, fel gweinidog Eglwys Bresbyteraidd Cymru, yn ymweld, pan roedd yna alwadau’n dod, â menywod tu allan i Gymru a throseddwyr ifanc. Roeddwn i’n cael mynd mewn i garchardai oherwydd hynny, felly mae gen i rywfaint o brofiad yn y maes hynny. Fy marn i yw bod angen carchar i fenywod.

Buaswn i’n leicio dweud un peth am droseddwyr ifanc, achos mae hyn yn hanfodol. Mae hwn eto yn dystiolaeth o gyfarfod gefais mewn carchar i droseddwyr ifanc. Roedd hogyn ifanc o Gymru yn gyndyn iawn o siarad Cymraeg hefo fi, er ei fod wedi dweud ei fod yn dod o’r gogledd-orllewin. Pan fuodd mewn ystafell ar ben ei hun hefo fi, dyma fi’n gofyn, “Wyt ti’n siarad Cymraeg?” ac atebodd, “Ydw, ond paid ti a deud wrth neb yn f’ama bod fi’n siarad Cymraeg.” Gofynais i, “Pam bod chdi ddim isio i bobl wybod dy fod ti’n siarad Cymraeg?” “Achos mae gen i ofn cael ’y ’mwlio”, oedd yr ateb. Dwi wedi clywed hynny â nghlustiau fy hun. Mae’n gyfrifoldeb arna i i rannu hynny hefo chi.

(Translation) Of course. I talked to you about family relationships. It is not that I say that a father or a mother’s relationship may be any different—everybody needs to have family contact. Certainly, one would be very aware that the talk about women was far quieter than about men. I know why that was—the percentage of women in our prisons is far lower than the percentage of men—but the need is far, far greater.

I visited women’s prisons. Even though I was employed by the Government and G4S at the time to work in Altcourse, as a minister of the Presbyterian Church of Wales, when calls came I would also visit women and young offenders outside of Wales. I went into prisons because of that, so I do have some experience of that. I believe that there is a need for a women’s prison.

I want to say something about young offenders, because this is important. Again, this is evidence from a meeting I had in a prison for young offenders. There was a young Welsh boy who was very reluctant to speak Welsh with me, even though he had said that he came from north-west Wales. When he was in a room on his own with me, I said, “Can you speak Welsh?” He said, “Yes, but don’t tell anybody here that I speak Welsh.” I asked, “Why don’t you want people to know that you can speak Welsh?” He replied, “Because I’m scared that I’d be bullied.” I have heard that with my own ears and it is my responsibility to share that with you.

Q123       Anna McMorrin: Diolch yn fawr. The Committee has received evidence about the lack of language services in prisons. How do you feel it affects Welsh speakers? Your evidence states that the needs of prisoners are not adequately met, so what more can be done?

Parchedig/Reverend Nan Powell-Davies: Diolch am y cwestiwn. Rhaid newid diwylliant carchardai. Un peth ydy darparu er mwyn jest rhoi tic yn y bocs, ond rhaid newid y diwylliant a newid agwedd. Rhaid newid agwedd yr holl sefydliad.

Pan roeddwn i’n cyrraedd y carchar yn Lerpwl yn blygeiniol, roedd o fel bod mewn cymuned—mewn pentre os leiciwch chi, yn enwedig gan fod gan y carchar 1,200 o garcharorion a tua 300 o weithwyr—ond roedd yr agwedd at y Gymraeg yn anghywir. Roedd fy mhrofiad i o fewn y gaplaniaeth fel yr unig siaradwraig Cymraeg yn gallu bod yn estron weithiau. Roeddwn i’n cydweithio yn hapus iawn hefo’m cyd-gaplaniaid, ond roeddwn i’n gofyn iddyn nhw weithiau, “Faint o Gymry Cymraeg sydd wedi cyrraedd yma?” “Dim ots am faint o Gymry sydd wedi cyrraedd. Mae hyn a hyn o Hindwiaid wedi cyrraedd; mae hyn a hyn o Foslemiaid wedi cyrraedd; mae hyn a hyn o bobl sydd ddim yn arddel crefydd wedi cyrraedd; a mae hyn a hyn o bobl o Gymru wedi cyrraedd.” Ac roeddwn i’n meddwl, “Ia, ond faint ohonyn nhw sy’n siarad Cymraeg?” Dyna lle rydan ni angen newid meddylfryd.

Dwi hefyd yn meddwl bod y swyddogion angen hyfforddiant. Pan rydan ni’n sôn am amrywiaeth—diversity—mae yna swyddog amrwyiaeth yn rhan fwyaf o’r carchardai os nad ymhob carchar. Dylent fod ar flaen y gad, yn sicr yn y carchardai lle mae’r mwyafrif o Gymry’n mynd. Rhaid addysgu pobl. Mewn carchar lle mai Cymry Cymraeg yw’r lleiafrif mwya, rhaid ateb yr anghenion hynny.

Pan roeddem ni’n derbyn gwybodaeth a data o garcharorion oedd yn cyrraedd y carchar, doedd yna ddim blwch; roedd yna flwch yn gofyn os oeddyn nhw’n dod o genedl arall, ond dim blwch tu allan i “white British”. Mae gwahaniaeth mawr rhwng fod yn “white British” yn dod o Lundain, a Chymro Cymraeg yn dod o Aberdaron neu Lanerchymedd, ond doedd dim modd cael y wybodaeth a’r data hynny. Rhaid newid hwnnw a newid yr agwedd a’r meddylfryd. Yr unig ffordd i wneud hynny yw drwy addysgu.

Mae cymaint o bethau mewn carchardai sydd yn angenrheidiol. Pob blwyddyn, roeddwn i’n gorfod gwneud cwrs ar fy niogelwch—sut i ddod allan o drafferthion. Roeddwn i hefyd yn gorfod cael hyfforddiant ynglŷn â radicaleiddio. Peth bach iawn ydi ychwanegu yn gyson—drwy’r amser—y wybodaeth hynny am y gwahaniaethau, yn arbennig mewn carchardai lle mae’r Cymry Cymraeg.

(Translation) Thank you very much for that question. We need to change the culture of prisons. It is one thing to provide—just to be able to tick a box—but there is a need to change the culture and the attitudes. Attitudes have to be changed among the entire institution in a way.

When I would go into the prison in Liverpool, it was like being in a community, in a village, if you like, particularly when the prison has 1,200 prisoners and 300 employees—but the attitude towards the Welsh language was wrong. My experience as the only Welsh speaker in the chaplaincy could sometimes be strange. My fellow chaplains and I collaborated very well together, but I would ask them sometimes, “How many Welsh speakers are there in here?” And they would reply, “It doesn’t matter how many Welsh people have come. We have got X, Y number of Hindus; X, Y number of Muslims; X, Y number of people who don’t profess any faith; and we have got X, Y number of people from Wales.” I thought, “Well, yes, but how many of them are Welsh speakers?” That is where we need to change mindsets.

I also think that the officers need training. When we talk about diversity, there is a diversity officer in the majority of, if not all prisons. They should be ahead of the game, certainly in those prisons where the majority of Welsh speakers go. People have to be educated. When you have a prison where the largest minority are Welsh speakers, you have to meet those needs.

When we received information and data from prisoners when they came into the prison, there was no box to tick. There was a box to ask if they came from another nationality but there was no box, outside of being “white British”. There is a big difference between being white British coming from London and being a Welsh-speaking Welsh person coming from Aberdaron or Llanerchymedd. But there was no way of getting that information and data. That has to be changed, and the attitude, mentality and mindset have to be changed. The only way we can do that is through education.

There are so many necessary things in prisons. Every year I would have to do a course on my own security—how to get out of difficulties. I also had to have training about radicalisation and so forth. It would be a very small thing to add—on a regular basis, at all times—just that information about the differences, particularly in the prisons where Welsh speakers are located.

Q124       Ben Lake: Chi wedi ymdrin â chwpwl o gwestiynau roeddwn i am ofyn. Er mwyn crynhoi pethau ar y diwedd, o’ch profiad chi yn y carchardai yma, fyddech chi’n dweud bod yr effaith ar fenywod yn debyg iawn i hynny ar ddynion? Hynny yw, menywod mewn carchardai yn Lloegr. Wnaethoch chi sôn am hanes y crwtyn ifanc yna oedd ddim am ddatgelu’r ffaith bod e’n gallu siarad Cymraeg am ei fod e’n ofni geith e ei fwlio am hynny. Ydy e’n ddigon teg i ddweud bod rhywbeth tebyg yn digwydd yng ngharchardai menywod?

(Translation) You have dealt with a couple of the questions that I was going to ask, but perhaps to summarise, from your experience in these prisons, would you say that the impact on women is very similar to that on men? By which I mean women in prisons in England. You talked about the young boy who did not want to disclose the fact that he was a Welsh speaker because he was scared of being bullied. Would it be fair to say that the situation is similar in the case in women’s prisons?

Parchedig/Reverend Nan Powell-Davies: I fod yn honest, dwi ddim yn gallu ateb hwnna ar ei ben. Efallai buaswn i’n gallu rhagdybio hynny, ond y gwir amdani yw nad oes gen i gymaint o brofiad o fod yn gweithio mewn carchar i fenywod, ac felly buasai’n anheg i fi ateb hynny un ffordd neu’r llall ar ei ben.

(Translation) To be honest, I cannot answer that completely. I could perhaps anticipate what my answer would be, but the truth is that I do not have as much experience of working in women’s prisons, so it would be unfair of me to answer that one way or another.

Q125       Ben Lake: Wnai ofyn cwestiwn arall sydd bach yn wahanol, felly. Doedd y crwtyn ifanc yna ddim am ddatgelu’r ffaith ei fod e’n siarad Cymraeg rhag ofn bod e’n cael ei fwlian, ac felly ddim yn mynd am y gwasanaeth. A gaethoch chi brofiad i’r gwrthwyneb o gwbl yn ystod eich amser yn Altcourse? Hynny yw, oeddech chi’n cael rhai a fyddai’n dod atoch chi neu yn gofyn am fwy o wasanaethau yn y Gymraeg ond ddim yn y sefyllfa i dderbyn nhw?

(Translation) Let me ask a slightly different question, then. You shared the story of the young man who did not want to disclose the fact that he was a Welsh speaker in case he was bullied and therefore would not ask for the service. Did you experience the opposite during your time at Altcourse? Would some people approach you and ask for services in Welsh but perhaps not receive them?

Parchedig/Reverend Nan Powell-Davies: Mi oedd yna rhai yn flaenllaw am ofyn ond, fel unrhyw haen arall o gymdeithas, mewn undod mae nerth. Pan roedd y Cymry’n sylweddoli bod rhywun arall yn uniaethu gyda’r un profiad—un o’r pethau roeddwn i’n cael y fraint o’i wneud oedd ymgynull y Cymry at ei gilydd. Roedd digwyddiadau cymdeithasol ar wahanol amseroedd o’r flwyddyn—gŵyl Ddewi, Nadolig, yr haf—yn gyfle i ni ddathlu fel Cymry hefyd. Mae sawl côr a sawl grŵp pop wedi bod yn canu yng Ngharchar Altcourse, ac roedden nhw’n achosion i’w dathlu.

Dwi’n mynd i rannu rhywbeth efallai ddaw â gwên i’ch gwyneb. Dwi’n cofio un o’r digwyddiadau hynny ac un o’m cantorion gorau ni’r Cymry yn canu, a dyma un o’r carcharorion yn dweud, “Pawb ar eu traed. Ni’n mynd i orffen drwy ganu ‘Hen Wlad fy Nhadau’!” Roedd yna 50 o Gymry Cymraeg yn y carchar—yn cynnwys y caplan, wrth gwrs—ar eu traed yn canu “Hen Wlad fy Nhadau” i ddiweddu’r cyfarfod.

(Translation) There were some who were very forward in asking, but as in any other tier of society, there is strength in unity. When the Welsh speakers realised that someone else could identify with the same experience—one of the things I had the privilege of doing was convening the Welsh people. There were social occasions at different times of the year—St David’s day, Christmas or the summer—and those were an opportunity for us to celebrate as Welsh people. There have been several choirs and pop groups singing in HMP Altcourse. They were certainly occasions to be celebrated.

I am going to share something that might make you smile. I remember that on one of those occasions, one of our best Welsh singers was singing and one of the prisoners said, “Everybody stand up. We’re going to sing ‘Land of My Fathers’ to close!” There were 50 Welsh speakers in that prison—including the chaplain, of course—on their feet singing “Land of My Fathers” to conclude the occasion.

Susan Elan Jones: Ni’n mynd i ofyn i chi ganu ar ddiwedd y sesiwn.

(Translation) We will ask you to sing at the end of the session.

Parchedig/Reverend Nan Powell-Davies: Os wnewch chi ymuno, mi wnai!

(Translation) If you join in, I certainly will!

Chair: Yn anffodus, mae’r gân wedi dod i ben. I gloi, ga i ddiolch i’r Parchedig Nan Powell-Davies ac i bawb arall sydd wedi rhoi tystiolaeth heddiw, ac wrth gwrs i’r cyfieithydd, Bow Tie Television a Hansard? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

(Translation) Unfortunately the song has ended. May I express my thanks to Reverend Nan Powell-Davies and everyone else who gave evidence today, and of course to the interpreter, Bow Tie Television and Hansard? Thank you very much indeed.