Examination of Witness
Q9 The Chairman: Minister, it is very nice to see you. I shall remind you, although you do not need reminding, of the parameters of this discussion and our questions, which are in relation to our inquiry into citizens’ rights. This session, as you know, is open to the public. There is a live webcast which subsequently will be accessible via the parliamentary website. A verbatim transcript of your evidence will be taken and put on to the parliamentary website. A few days after this session you will be sent a copy of the transcript to check for accuracy, and we would be grateful if you could advise us of any corrections as quickly as possible. After the session, if there is anything that you would like to amplify or clarify regarding your evidence or if you have any additional points to make, you are welcome to submit supplementary written evidence to us. Let us welcome the right honourable Brandon Lewis, Member of Parliament and a Minister in the Home Office. Let us review what has happened during a busy week.
Brandon Lewis MP: Yes, things have moved on somewhat over the past few days.
The Chairman: Indeed they have, and that has caused some shifts in the matters we want to raise with you. I want to ask you about the developments that have taken place. On Friday, it was announced that the Government had reached a draft agreement on citizens’ rights with the EU 27. How satisfied are the Government that they have achieved their negotiating objectives?
Brandon Lewis MP: We are delighted that we have managed to reach an agreement on citizens’ rights. It is something that the Prime Minister herself had set as a priority from the beginning and it is important to give confidence and certainty in this area, not only to EU citizens here in the UK but obviously to British citizens in Europe. It also has the benefit of ensuring that we can now move on to the next stage of the negotiations. At a number of different levels, it is really good news. As I say, what is most important is the certainty that we can give to the more than 3 million EU citizens here in the UK and the fact that we can start moving towards the process of granting settled status.
Q10 Lord Cromwell: Like many others, I enjoyed the letter published last night in the Evening Standard from the Prime Minister to all and sundry. You say that it is joyful to have reached an agreement and I am sure we all share in that, but as one reads the letter through it is clear that quite a lot of remaining bits and pieces, if we can call them that, need to be done. Can you set out, particularly for those looking in on this session, the outstanding matters on citizens’ rights that still have to be agreed before the withdrawal agreement?
Brandon Lewis MP: The core thing for EU citizens and British citizens abroad is that those EU citizens living in the UK can be confident that they do not have to do anything immediately. I think that they will be waiting to hear about the exact process for granting settled status. I have been clear about this for some months and I have spoken about it publicly at the Dispatch Box in our House. We are looking to develop a very simple, quick and easy system. If anyone has renewed their passport online recently, as I am promoting and encouraging people to do, they should know that we are trying to use that kind of process so that people can do this simply online. We are also taking a very different approach at the Home Office. Our team is looking at whether we grant someone the status. This is a big culture change because we are now granting status to people and the presumption is in favour of the individual to have that status granted to them. We want to give people confidence that it really will be simple and not onerous.
I expect to have the system going live on a voluntary basis in the second half of 2018. Over the next few months we will work with user groups and representatives of EU citizens to do two things. One is to make sure that we are communicating as widely as possible so that people understand what the system is going to be and when it will start and that have confidence in it. The other is working on the design of the system so that, when we go live with it as an online system, it will be something that users themselves will have been involved in designing so that it is a user-friendly experience.
Lord Cromwell: I am always keen on the mechanics and others will come on to the fact that it is about time that we got these mechanics right, so I shall leave that point. Are there any issues other than the actual mechanics, although I agree that they are vital? I know that Mr Verhofstadt has raised some issues about how future partners will be treated, free movement rights and ensuring that there is a light-touch process, which is perhaps what you were referring to. Are there not still actual issues rather than the mechanics which need to be resolved, or are we there now?
Brandon Lewis MP: There are two stages. Obviously the first stage, and what the agreement is about, is respecting and supporting the decisions people have made with the rights that they have now. It is logical that we have been able to get the agreement so that the decisions people have made about their lives and lifestyles are respected, because they will have made those decisions in the knowledge of the current rules. Perhaps it is easier to explain that I am looking at this as a process of three phases. Phase 1 is where we are now and is pre-March 2019. Phase 2 is the implementation period of around two years, as the Prime Minister outlined in her Florence speech and as is to be outlined further in future negotiations. Phase 3 is the final post-implementation period that will be our position when we finally leave the EU. I would set the point that you are making in phase 3. On what the Immigration Rules will be for anyone—
Lord Cromwell: I am sorry to interrupt you, but how many years away from now is phase 3?
Brandon Lewis MP: That will depend on the terms of the final negotiations and the length of the implementation period, but we are probably looking at early 2021.
Lord Cromwell: So anybody who has anxieties about the sort of issues that I have just mentioned will not know the answer until 2021. Is that right?
Brandon Lewis MP: I was going to say that in terms of families and the decisions people have made now, they are based on their current position. What we have said from the beginning is that once we have left the European Union, settled status will grant people a sense of certainty. It means that broadly they will have the same rights as British citizens. I say “broadly” because, for example, they will not be able to vote in a general election. So they will have broadly the same rights as British citizens and that will imply the same position in the future with regard to their family decisions in the sense that, whether someone is from the EU or is a British citizen living next door, they will be in the same position if they want to marry someone from New Zealand or whatever. Right now, if they are here, their family are part of the settled status process.
Lord Cromwell: I do not want to monopolise the question, but just to paraphrase, do you think that there are or there are not some outstanding issues? I think that you are saying that there are, but that they are not going to be resolved for a long time.
Brandon Lewis MP: In terms of the withdrawal agreement and the settled status position of EU citizens who are here now, as well as whether their wives and children are here now or may not be living here, but they are married and they will wish to live here in the future, that is settled and is clear in the agreement. What the future immigration system will be for the decisions people make post us having left the European Union, we will have to wait and see what the report from the Migration Advisory Committee says, along with decisions we will make pending the immigration Bill that is due next year.
Lord Cromwell: So free movement remains an open question at this stage.
Brandon Lewis MP: As we have said from the beginning, free movement as we know it will end when we leave the European Union.
The Chairman: Mr Lewis, perhaps I may tease this out a little more. As you can imagine, we have received communications from many individuals reflecting their anxieties and fears. One was from a French person who has settled in Britain, has bought a home and has children who are going to school here. His wife is concerned because her mother, who has just been widowed, is in her late 70s. They would like to be able to bring that relative to live with them; that is, an elderly parent and the grandmother of their children. Will that person be allowed to come and join that family in Britain?
Brandon Lewis MP: Yes, because that will be based on the position they are in now; it is one involving the current family. The difference as we go forward is that if that French person has settled status in, let us say, 2025—a long way down the line—then falls in love and decides to marry someone from New Zealand, they would be under the same Immigration Rules as a British citizen.
The Chairman: You have described a much more simplified system in order to acquire settled status. Will it be free of charge?
Brandon Lewis MP: No.
The Chairman: So it will have a cost attached to it.
Brandon Lewis MP: Yes.
The Chairman: Concern has been expressed about how much it is going to cost those who, in the panic of the referendum result, have started going through the process of acquiring British citizenship. They have found it to be a very expensive business. Are we talking about reasonable costs?
Brandon Lewis MP: Yes, let me explain. It is like other European countries. If you want to live and work in France, you have to go through various processes. We have agreed with the European Union that the charge will be no more than the charge for an equivalent British piece of ID such as a passport, although we have not set the price yet. We have also said that the system will be much simpler than that which people have to go through for permanent residency status.
The Chairman: No 80-page documents that they have to fill in?
Brandon Lewis MP: No 80-page documents. I will explain that in a moment, but there will definitely be no 80-page documents. If someone has gone through the permanent residency test, it will be even simpler. There will also be a reduced charge and possibly it will be free, but we have not finalised that yet. You are quite right that it will not be an 80-page document. We are looking to develop this using online processes. Someone will spend literally a few minutes online, as you would when you renew your British passport, and within a couple of weeks their settled status will be dealt with and granted. All we will need to confirm is that there is no criminal record issue and that the person applying really has been, and is, living in the UK.
The Chairman: Minister, I was interested in what you said about a presumption to grant status. That is rather important. As a Minister in the Home Office, you know that around immigration and asylum issues and so on there is a general culture of disbelief when people apply to come here. The sense is that, when they give accounts of what has happened to them and so on, they are met with disbelief rather than a willingness to believe. You are saying very publicly that the presumption will be to grant and that it will only really be in cases where there clearly should not be a granting that there will be a refusal, which will be quite rare.
Brandon Lewis MP: Yes. First, I am sure you will appreciate that I might have a slightly different view of how the Home Office looks at applications at the moment. It has to be rigorous in making sure that people are genuine. But the settled status process involves a different approach. There is a presumption that it will be granted, and the only circumstances in which I can foresee someone not being granted settled status is either if the criminal records check clearly shows that they are a criminal, or if someone claims to be an EU citizen in the UK but is not, which would be a fraudulent application.
Baroness Shackleton of Belgravia: Minister, what is the process of appeal if someone is refused?
Brandon Lewis MP: When the scheme goes live in the second half of 2018, it will be a voluntary scheme because we will not have the withdrawal legislation in place. The majority of people will be able to have settled status granted. There will be an administrative appeal process, but I cannot put a statutory appeal process in place because it is a voluntary scheme. Equally, a statutory appeal process will be in place when it becomes a formal legislative scheme, and visas will obviously follow with the legislation.
Baroness Shackleton of Belgravia: When it becomes formal and we have withdrawn from the ECJ, what will happen then?
Brandon Lewis MP: There will be a formal appeals process.
Baroness Shackleton of Belgravia: Through our courts.
Brandon Lewis MP: Through our system, yes.
Baroness Shackleton of Belgravia: Going up to the Supreme Court?
Brandon Lewis MP: That is yet to be decided depending on how the process works. But the only reason someone would appeal in the first place would be if there was a query about whether they had or did not have a criminal record of if the claim was fraudulent—that is, if it involved someone who was not a European citizen living in the UK. So I come back to the Chair’s point that such cases should be extremely rare.
The Chairman: You and I would agree—and you are a lawyer, too, Mr Lewis—
Brandon Lewis MP: Long ago.
The Chairman: A long time ago; it is more recent for me. You know that there is a big difference between somebody who is a criminal and somebody who, for example, has acquired a conviction for a theft, perhaps for taking home from work something that they should not have taken. Will there be a de minimis approach to this? If it is a minor infraction, will it not necessarily mean that your status will be withdrawn?
Brandon Lewis MP: We already have that in place effectively, even for non-EU citizens. There is a level of criminality at which you cannot stay in the country, and that is what we are looking at applying.
The Chairman: So you will use that common standard.
Brandon Lewis MP: Yes. It is a clear standard that is already in place.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Minister, what rights will EU citizens currently in this country and UK citizens currently in the EU lose under the provisions of the joint agreement?
Brandon Lewis MP: Right now, obviously there is no change. I would suggest that the only real change will potentially be in what the EU allows in terms of the ability of UK citizens to vote. Here, we obviously allow people to vote in local elections. Coming back to a question put to me a few moments ago, in future there might be a change in decisions about family. In 2025 or 2030, an EU citizen falling in love with and marrying somebody from a third-party country might have to go through the UK Immigration Rules, whereas at the moment they do not. But obviously that does not apply to somebody who is already here.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Is it not right that, after what is known as the specified date, British citizens in one EU member state will not have an automatic right to take up residence in another EU member state? For example, if someone is employed in Amsterdam and their employer wants them to work in Paris, that right will go, will it not?
Brandon Lewis MP: I do not think it is quite that straightforward. If you are a UK national living and working in the EU up to the specified date, my understanding is that you will be able to continue to move around the EU 27 and live your life as you do now, and that includes onward movement.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I am talking about after the specified date.
Brandon Lewis MP: That is something that we will be looking to secure in the next round of negotiations.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Just to be clear about that before I come to another example, you are saying that that kind of freedom of movement will still be enjoyed after the specified date.
Brandon Lewis MP: That is something that we want to achieve and we see it as an objective in the next part of the negotiations.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: But you have not achieved it yet.
Brandon Lewis MP: No, it is not in this part of the agreement.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Can I turn to future family rights after Brexit day? If a British citizen wants to bring an EU spouse into the UK, that right will go, will it not?
Brandon Lewis MP: After, yes.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: After, they will be worse off in that respect.
Brandon Lewis MP: Yes, but it depends what the Immigration Rules are post our leaving the EU. Obviously that has not been outlined as yet; it will follow after the immigration Bill next year. So I cannot give you a fixed answer to that at the moment.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Can you give me an answer about deporting EU nationals after the specified date? Will it be easier to deport them than now?
Brandon Lewis MP: That depends partly on where we end up in the negotiations and what is in next year’s immigration Bill, which obviously is not yet before Parliament.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: What about professional qualifications? Concern has been expressed about a lack of mutual recognition—for example, for lawyers. What have you arrived at on that?
Brandon Lewis MP: That is not part of the Home Office’s negotiations on EU citizens but I know that it is an ongoing part of the negotiations.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Finally, from my point of view, none of the rights that we have been talking about will be protected against a future Parliament, will they?
Brandon Lewis MP: If they are part of the withdrawal agreement, they will be protected in the agreement with the European Union and therefore through the British court system.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Yes, but without the ECJ and supranational EU law, there will be no ultimate protection against what we call parliamentary sovereignty, will there?
Brandon Lewis MP: There is obviously the protection of the British court system with the Supreme Court, which, on citizens’ rights, will also have the ability to refer on a particular issue where there is no case law for the next period.
Q11 Lord Judd: I am sure that you appreciate that EU citizens in the UK have been subjected to a considerable degree of uncertainty over the last 18 months. These are not just statistics; they are real people, real families, children, vulnerable people, sick people and people whose whole lives are at stake. Did the Government expect that we would be discussing citizens’ rights at this stage in the negotiations, particularly given the categorical early assurances about a speedy resolution of the issue? What impact do you think this is having on real people—real children, real elderly people with the worries and anxieties of old age?
Brandon Lewis MP: There are a number of points in what you have outlined. Obviously, I have been in this brief for a few months now. One frustration I have about the public debate on this issue is summed up in your opening remarks. In the media and among the public, we have ended up in a debate around what is perceived as uncertainty. I understand that. If you are an EU citizen in the UK and the UK has just voted to leave the European Union, which is what happened in last year’s referendum, there is uncertainty in the sense that, until those negotiations are completed, there is always a human instinct to wonder what the outcome will be. I understand that and it is why it was right that the Prime Minister should outline that she wanted as a priority to give confidence to and settle the position for EU citizens. Of course, you have to remember that we could do none of that until the negotiations started; it was the first issue we turned to.
The one thing in common between where the EU was, what EU citizens wanted and what the British Government outlined in their offer right back at the beginning of the negotiations was the ability of EU citizens to be confident that they could stay here. The debate has been on some of the issues around that—for example, relating to the ECJ, or CJEU, which we have already touched on. On the basic principle of the EU citizen being able to stay here, we have been consistent from the very beginning: the 3 million-plus EU citizens in the UK play an important part not just in our economy but in our communities. That is why we have been very clear that we want them to stay. It is very good that in the first stage of the negotiations we have been able to get that done. Anyone who has ever been involved in negotiations of any type, let alone something unique like on leaving the European Union, would know that this would always be a complicated stage that would take time to get right, but ultimately we have got it into a good place, which means that people can have that confidence going forward. We can now get on with designing the process and having that status granted.
Lord Judd: Do you agree that at the time of Maastricht the principle and the reality of European citizenship were created? We were party to that. Thousands upon thousands of people have made decisions about their lives, with all the expectations that go into it, in the context and confidence of being European citizens. We—with less than half the electorate, I might say—have said, “That right of European citizenship is no longer absolute; it is in jeopardy. We’re now working out some future relationship and you must wait and see what happens”. Is this not for an awful lot of people an intolerable situation of anxiety? They are trying to think ahead. They are thinking of their children’s education and their relatives’ well-being. Why cannot we recognise that and say, “We gave a categorical assurance at the time of the referendum and we will fulfil that without delay”?
Brandon Lewis MP: I was not around at the time of Maastricht so I am not going to get into a debate around what people thought would be the position in perpetuity at that stage. I voted remain last year—I was quite open about that; I campaigned for remain—but first and foremost I am a democrat. The British public made a decision to leave the European Union—
Lord Judd: I must stop you. The British public did not. Less than half the electorate made the decision.
Brandon Lewis MP: I am a democrat. There was a referendum that everybody could vote in. The majority of those who did so voted to leave the European Union. Despite the fact that my side did not win—I have my views—we respect the decision that was made. We will deliver on that and do it in the best way we possibly can. It is good that we are now able to give that certainty to EU citizens and have confirmed their position going forward. To start trying to reverse the decision of the referendum is anti-democratic; I am afraid that I am just not with you on that.
Lord Judd: The Office for National Statistics has suggested that the referendum result “may be influencing people’s decision to migrate into and out of the UK”. What evidence do the Government have about how EU citizens in the UK have responded to all the uncertainty? Has there been a noticeable impact on specific sectors? For example, just what has been the impact on the NHS or the universities sector? I must declare an interest, because I am marginally involved in university life.
Brandon Lewis MP: That is fine. I also declare that, up until the summer and before I had this particular role in government, I was a member of the council of governors of a university myself, so I fully appreciate the position with universities. The evidence shows that a range of things drive migration. They include economic performance. For example, agriculture has recruited a lot of people from places such as Romania during the past few years. My figures are not exact, but Romania’s unemployment rate has fallen from around 15% to below 6%. Migration policy can have an impact, as can social networks. A whole range of things can have an impact, including currency in certain sectors. But if you look at the net migration figures published by the ONS just a couple of weeks ago and the transparency data published by the Home Office, you will see the biggest reduction on record in net migration. The number of EU citizens coming here to work in confirmed jobs is up. The labour figures of a few weeks ago showed that we have a record number of EU citizens here in work. The number of applications for student visas was up 6%—9% for the Russell group—last year. So this is still very much a country that attracts people. I will personally support our universities in doing all they can to recruit more international students. It is good for the British economy and for our influence on the world stage.
The Chairman: We had interesting evidence from a number of ambassadors, Minister. One of them was the Romanian ambassador. What came as something of a surprise to me was the number of Romanian doctors working in the National Health Service. You will know as well as I do that many of our nurses have come from the European Union. We have now seen an incredible drop in the number of nurses; we are short of nurses to a significant degree. A lot of that seems to be because people have decided to return to Europe or not to take up jobs in the National Health Service due to uncertainty. That is anecdotally what we are being told. Are you challenging that?
Brandon Lewis MP: During the past few months, I have spent a lot of time meeting different organisations, both commercially and in the public sector—individually and in round tables. I also look at our transparency data and the ONS data. The simple fact is that the labour figures that came out a few weeks ago show that we have 2.4 million European citizens at work in the UK. That is the highest number on record, I believe. The last set of ONS data and our transparency data show that the number of EU citizens coming here for confirmed jobs is up by about 4,000, while overall net migration has fallen. The number of visitor visas was up 11% last year; tier 1 visas are up 38%, and applications for student visas are up 6%.
The Chairman: Can I pick you up on the student situation? That figure is almost invariably out of date because it always refers to people who have applied a year before—I say this as the head of an Oxford college. The sense one is getting is that the number of applications to universities is reducing because of anxieties as to the future and about funding—whether fees will remain the same and so on. There are anxieties relating to the number of applications for people to come and study here. People in the universities sector are not as sanguine as you seem to be.
Brandon Lewis MP: I have been talking to Universities UK and the Russell group. I will confirm it for you, but I think that the figures on visa applications that I have given you are much more up to date than that because they are the figures for the last quarter. Even last Thursday, when I was with representatives from the Russell group of universities, they, too, were saying that the number of visa applications from international students was up. I have to say that there is also a challenge for our universities. Part of my role involves travelling. There is a job for our universities in some parts of the world to look again and look further at how we can promote what we offer in the UK. Other countries are putting a lot of time and effort into going out and recruiting international students.
The Chairman: We used to do it through the British Council until it was scythed and the money was taken from it. It was very good at doing that.
Brandon Lewis MP: The Department for International Trade Minister Mark Garnier is focusing on that work and he is keen to do more. I have been talking to him about it.
The Chairman: We used to have a very effective mechanism in the British Council, but unfortunately it was not recognised for long enough.
Lord Cromwell: You have talked about the number of student applications. Can you talk about the academic side? I am certainly anecdotally aware of people who were due to take up positions in universities but have decided not to specifically because of the uncertainties. You have talked about student numbers being up. What noise or data do you have on academic excellence coming to this country?
Brandon Lewis MP: That is a very fair point. The universities I have met with have raised this issue. Again, quoting your favourite word “anecdotally”, what I have said to them is what I have said to other sectors: let us have the data to support this to be able to feed back to the Migration Advisory Committee. We have commissioned the committee to do two pieces of work. One is on international students and the other is more generally on the impact of EU labour on the British economy. The committee will be reporting back on those next year. As I have said, it is important to get the data because of the decisions that we will make. Obviously at the moment people have access to the free movement of labour until we leave, and even in the implementation period, while free movement as we know it will end because people will need to register, we are still looking at business having access to that labour. We are looking a few years down the line to, say, early 2021 when the new immigration system comes in, whatever that might be. That is why it is important for organisations to feed into the Migration Advisory Committee and provide us directly with the data so that the decisions about our future immigration system are made on an evidence-based approach. Both the Home Secretary and I have been clear that we want to go through this very methodically and it is why we have commissioned the team to do this work. That will give us the data behind the anecdotes.
For example, I know from my previous role that the housebuilding industry face challenges that people will look at in the light of leaving the European Union and access to labour. Actually, it goes much deeper than that. The reality is that construction, particularly the housebuilding sector, has known for the past few years that it has roughly 750,000 people who are due to retire over the next seven years—at the point I was involved, it was 10 years—and yet it is not really doing very much about recruitment. The big six housebuilders do not employ brickies or electricians. They have no interest in developing modern methods of construction and automation, as Europe, Japan and America have done.
The Chairman: You are sounding like me. I feel that there should be investment in retraining and providing the new generation with those skills, but we have not been doing that.
Brandon Lewis MP: You are absolutely right and that is why we have asked the Migration Advisory Committee to do its work with reference to the industrial strategy as well. I recognise that we face challenges in some sectors. I have been clear that my job is to deliver an immigration system in which the British public can see that we have control while at the same time ensuring that business and the economy can flourish and access the skills and the people that they need. I do think that we can do both. I do not pretend that it will be easy; it will be complicated and difficult, and that is why we have to take a methodical evidence-based approach. Again, the data that lies behind the anecdotes is vital and I have asked various sectors of industry to feed the data in to us.
Lord Cromwell: I have one follow-up question. What you are saying is that there are various aspirations, but we will not actually know what the system is for several years yet.
Brandon Lewis MP: I would not say several years. We will introduce the immigration Bill in early 2018, which will provide the power to set Immigration Rules around the EU. The independent Migration Advisory Committee will report in the third or fourth quarter of next year and then we will make those decisions. My personal intention is that, once we have the evidence from the Migration Advisory Committee along with its advice to us, we will make decisions towards the back end of next year. It means that sectors will have roughly two years’ notice about what the immigration system will be.
Lord Judd: Minister, while we are talking about universities, we like to pride ourselves on having some of the best in the world. That is not just about the number of students but about the quality of the education offered. That quality depends on having the best from the international academic community. It is crucial that there is certainty in this sector with no lags, because universities have to regenerate and renew the quality of their international academic community all the time. The doubts about these issues are in fact raising real anxieties in our universities.
Brandon Lewis MP: As I say, now that we have the agreement—and I would argue even before then, but I appreciate that we are not going to agree on that—there is no reason for people to have doubts or concerns about the future. I am working with the sector and I think that I will be meeting with representatives of Universities UK later this week, having met with them several times over the past few months. We want to make sure that they have confidence in the fact that we can develop a system that ensures that they are able to do what they need to do. We have to bear in mind that access to some of the most able and brightest people around the world does not rely purely on the immigration system. The way the tiers work in the immigration system means that universities can access those kinds of people, and they do that now. The ability to attract people, as I said earlier, goes beyond whether we are or we are not members of the EU.
Lord Judd: But how do the assurances that you are giving now, along with much of what you have said—I absolutely accept that it was said in good faith—reconcile with the mantra we keep hearing that nothing is settled until everything is settled? How can you possibly reconcile these reassurances with that overriding mantra?
The Chairman: I was going to ask you precisely that, Minister. It must be very difficult to plan while it is being said that nothing is set in stone until everything is over. That must make planning rather difficult. As Lord Judd has just said, how can you talk about what is being put in place with any certainty when we are told that nothing is sure until the end?
Brandon Lewis MP: For two core reasons. First, we have said from the very beginning that we want EU citizens who are here in the UK to stay. That has not changed; it is the core guiding principle of where we are and it will continue to be. Secondly, I have confidence in this. What we saw in the agreement reached last Friday further enhances and confirms for me that we will get a good deal for the UK and the EU. If we are going to leave the EU, we will do so in a way that gets a good deal for the United Kingdom and for the European Union as well. Ultimately, we will succeed in the future as partners together.
Baroness Ludford: You know as well as we do, Minister, that over the past three or four days considerable doubt has been cast on the status of last Friday’s agreement. The Brexit Secretary made remarks on Sunday on the “Andrew Marr Show” about it not being legally enforceable and then yesterday he said—I paraphrase him—that it was a political agreement, which is more than legally enforceable. We then had an exchange, certainly in this Chamber yesterday, when the Leader of the House said in effect—I cannot remember her exact words—that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. He even said that the financial commitments would not necessarily be a matter of honour. I think that an unsettled mood has been created for EU citizens despite the Prime Minister’s letter in the Evening Standard yesterday. Where do we stand? Are the Government going to honour what was agreed on Friday?
Brandon Lewis MP: We had agreement on Friday which covers the three areas as outlined. The status of EU citizens is the part that I am focused on and we will go forward and be working to deliver that. As I said at the outset, we want EU citizens to stay. Predominantly, the comments around the statement that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed is actually a position that the EU has itself outlined from the very beginning. It also relates in particular to the agreement on the bill. Again, as I have said from the beginning, we are clear that we want EU citizens to stay and we want to get on with that. In the second half of 2018 we will be opening the voluntary system.
Baroness Ludford: Is it regarded as a matter of honour by the Government that they will follow through on the commitments that at least politically were made on Friday? Is that the firm intention of the Government so that people can rely to a considerable extent on the commitments made?
Brandon Lewis MP: In a way, I would go further and say that it is the classic thing of judging people by their actions. We will not even start the implementation period to leave the European Union until the end of March 2019. Ahead of that, in the second half of 2018 we will start the settled status process. We will have the letter from the PM, I will be writing over the next few days and, once we get past Christmas, early in the new year we will go into very proactive communications with EU citizens about the system and the process. We are working with their user groups to design it and, as I say, it will go live and we will be granting settled status in the second half of 2018; that is, before we get to March 2019. That gives a very clear indication of our programme.
The Chairman: Just to solidify that seriousness of intent, are you recruiting lots of new people to take up their jobs from next year to help with this process?
Brandon Lewis MP: Yes. UKVI has recruited 700 staff and we have job offers out to start in March/April next year for a further 500, so we will be 1,200 staff up.
Q12 Lord Cashman: Minister, earlier you said that you want to deal with the decisions that people are taking now and that you wish EU citizens to stay. Following the referendum, many EU citizens in the UK applied for permanent residence. We understand that a large number of applications were refused, possibly because individuals did not have comprehensive sickness insurance in the circumstances where it was required or because they could not provide information requested in this extensive, complicated 85-page application form. My question to you is twofold. Why was the original system so complicated? Given that the problems that have been experienced by applicants are continuing, how confident are you that the current complicated and bureaucratic hurdles can be eliminated?
Brandon Lewis MP: That is a very fair question. As I said, it is clear that we are not going to have an 80-page or 85-page document. It will be a system that will take somebody literally a few minutes online. It is very similar to how you renew your passport today. It will be even simpler for those who have already gained permanent residency, because obviously they will have already proven the fact that they are here, which is why for them it will be even a stage or two—
Lord Cashman: Minister, I am talking about permanent residence.
Brandon Lewis MP: Yes. We would be offering them the chance to switch to settled status. That is my point. People do not need to get permanent residency now. If they are EU citizens, they will be able to get settled status, which will give them broadly the same rights as a British citizen, with a much simpler system. The current system is not fit to deal with the situation after we leave the EU, which is why we are, as I say, developing this new system. In the technical document that we published on, I think, 7 November, we outlined the approach that we are going to take for EU citizens who are looking to gain settled status. It is being designed with those users, working with some of the consulates. User groups—the3million group and others—are also involved with us and are having meetings with our team to make sure that, when the system goes live, it is a system that they have been part of designing and are happy with. I cannot stress enough that the system will be very simple and, within a couple of weeks, people will have their settled status confirmed.
The Chairman: Will there be support for older people who are not good with technology?
Brandon Lewis MP: Yes, there will. This is why the Home Office is taking a different cultural approach. We have taken a very pragmatic approach. For example, we are removing the need to demonstrate comprehensive sickness insurance, which you mentioned, Lord Cashman, to secure settled status. The current system is not designed for the scale of numbers that we are talking about—the 3.5 million. As I say, the system will be very simple. One reason why we are recruiting so many people is obviously the sheer scale of numbers that we are looking to deal with. Also, I want our team to be proactive so that, if people have an issue, they can help them to resolve that issue, to take up Baroness Kennedy’s point, rather than spending their time deciding whether someone should or should not be granted something—that presumption will be there positively.
Lord Cashman: Thank you. Let me take you a little further, because we all have examples. There is the example of the head of Scotland’s Royal Botanic Garden. He is married to a French citizen, who has lived here for 24 years. She was refused permanent residence because she could not prove that she was self-sufficient, as the fact that she was married to a UK citizen would not be taken into account. I hope that that is one of the bureaucratic hurdles that we can get over. The uncertainty that we have referred to is not imagined. Because of that uncertainty, people are applying now for permanent residence. How soon would you expect to start registering EU citizens who are entitled to remain under the new scheme? Given the uncertainty, would it not make sense to start to register the EU nationals who already qualify for permanent residence under a streamlined system as soon as possible?
Brandon Lewis MP: Yes. I have already outlined that; it is what I have said. I make a couple of points. First, in the settled status system, somebody simply needs to show that they are an EU citizen living in the UK before the date. That is it. There are no issues around their relationships or their income. The issue is that they are an EU citizen living here in the UK. It is very simple. If somebody already has permanent residency, it will be even simpler, because they will not need to evidence that they are living in the UK, because they have already done that.
Lord Cashman: I am talking about people who have not got permanent residence.
Brandon Lewis MP: People who have not got permanent residence will have a very simple system. The difference between those who have permanent residence and those who have not is that those who have not will simply need to evidence that they have been living and are in the UK. Obviously, we have to make sure that the system cannot be abused by a non-EU citizen not living in the UK. It will be a very simple system. We are working with the users themselves on the way that people will be able to evidence that. There are many cases that will be very simple for us and we are working with HMRC on that. We want to make sure that the system is simple for the user.
Lord Cashman: When do you think that that streamlined system will be up and running?
Brandon Lewis MP: As I have said several times already, it will be in the second half of 2018, when this will go live as a voluntary scheme ahead of us leaving the European Union. We will do a lot of communications with EU citizens here in the UK from very early in 2018.
Q13 The Earl of Kinnoull: I am following up on the same sort of thing, I am afraid. Mr Verhofstadt, who is the rapporteur in the European Parliament for Brexit—the European Parliament ultimately has a veto, of course—said recently that these administrative procedures needed to be “light touch, declaratory in nature and free of charge”. I want to put a couple of points to you. First, it seems to me that reciprocity is key here. Everything that we load on to the 3 million might act as a block for our citizens living in those other countries. Secondly, I am not a lot clearer as to what this simplified system will be—you have said “simplified” a number of times. If the IT system is to be up and running by the middle of next year, as you say it will be, someone must have specified that system by now, so you or someone must know that there will be eight questions, that the questions will be like this and that there will be a system of checking national insurance numbers or whatever. It would be enormously helpful to the 3.5 million people and their associated families to know now what that simplified system will be. That is not connected with the arrival of the IT build; it is a precursor to the IT build. It should not be ready in the middle of next year but should probably be on your desk now, certainly in an advanced draft. What do you think of that set of proposals?
Brandon Lewis MP: It is a very fair point. When I talk about the system going live in the second half of next year, I am not saying, “This is what it will look like”; it will be actually there for people to use in the second half of next year. As the PM outlined in her Florence speech, we are currently, and have been for the past couple of months, working with the user groups to make sure that the front-facing part of this and the way that we ask people to evidence that they are an EU citizen living in the UK is simple and something that they are happy with. I would expect very soon after Christmas to be able clearly and publicly to outline exactly what that system will be. It will be a very short process, with half a dozen to eight steps online on the computer. That is why I have been able to say to you this morning that I am confident that, if you want to get a feel for what it will look like, it will be similar to how you renew your passport at the moment. It is that kind of simplicity. We have been publicising renewing passports online over the past few weeks and quite a few people have come to us to say how good that system is.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Minister, obviously the Government take responsibility for the existing system, which is worthy of Kafka: unfair, unreasonable and arbitrary. Equally obviously, the Government cannot undo the harm that has already been caused by that unfair system. I suggest that it might be appropriate for you, as Minister, to express regret that this has happened.
Brandon Lewis MP: I am sorry; what do you mean by an “unfair” system? I agree that an 85-page document is overly complicated. That is why I want to simplify things, which we will do, as I have outlined, but I am not sure what you mean by “unfair”.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: That is what I mean.
Brandon Lewis MP: An 85-page document is overly complicated and overly bureaucratic, which is why I have been determined that, with the settled status system, that will not happen.
The Chairman: Is it a source of regret to you that such a document existed and was developed?
Brandon Lewis MP: I am not going to criticise what has gone before, because people were designing systems based on a current set of agreements to make sure that they were able to evidence that somebody was genuine about what they were doing. I appreciate that there will always be individual cases on which we might all take different views. I will not comment on individual cases, but it is logical to have a system that makes sure that somebody is genuine about what they are doing and that there is an ability to check that. I think that in the modern world, particularly with digital technology and the way in which we can now link things together, we have an opportunity to do something in a much simpler way, and that is a good thing.
The Chairman: If you are someone with no expertise in dealing with computers and doing that kind of online application, assistance will be available and it will be possible to do it in a different way.
Brandon Lewis MP: Yes. That, again, is why it is important that in the next few weeks we will be working with the user groups, as we have been doing over the last few weeks, to make sure that we get a system that is not just robust but simple and that users are happy that it works for them.
The Chairman: They will be happy to hear that.
Q14 Baroness Ludford: Minister, if you are not in a position to express regret, can you at least explain how we are going to get this nirvana of simplicity with settled status compared with where we are now? There may not be an 85-page document but a lot of people are experiencing a great deal of hassle when applying for permanent residence. My colleague Lord Cashman cited the example of a French wife who has been living here for 24 years. We are reading in the press about a number of cases of EU citizens who might be vulnerable and who are receiving letters suggesting that they should return home or they might be deported. Why is this happening? There seems to be an attempt by the Home Office to create a hostile environment—a term used by the Lord Chairman at the beginning. Can you clarify whether and how the Government are going to apply the kinds of tests that are being applied at the moment, such as those on self-sufficiency and on genuine and effective work? Comprehensive insurance for sickness will apparently not apply, but there will be a test on whether there is a burden on the social assistance system. How many of those will be dropped in regard to settled status? If they are going to be dropped then, why are they being applied now, causing considerable distress? There appears to be a disconnect between what is happening now and what will be happening in just a few months’ time.
Brandon Lewis MP: I am afraid that this is another area where we are going to have to agree to disagree. I think that the difference is entirely logical and I will explain why. If you could bear with me for just a minute, without wishing to comment on individual cases, it is probably worth picking up on the case referred to by Lord Cashman. We see cases reported in the media from time to time, but particularly with regard to individual cases I have to urge some caution. I am not going to pretend that nobody ever makes mistakes. Mistakes happen and in a moment I will come to the one that you referenced concerning some EU residents who got a letter in the summer. Equally, when we dig into quite a lot of the cases that I see reported in the press, there is often more than one side to a story. Quite often, it will be the case that it has not been explained to an applicant that they have not completed a certain part of the application properly or that they did not qualify in some way, or there is a genuine reason for permanent residency being refused or what have you. Currently, under EU treaty laws, not all EU citizens are entitled to permanent residency.
I think that you were inferring from the fact that in the summer 106 EU residents got a letter that they should not have got—a letter sent in error. We have to put this in context. We deal with literally millions of visa and passport applications every year and 106 letters that should not have gone out were sent. Those were individuals whose applications were, in one way or another, not correct or were refused—there were various things in there—and, in error, they got a letter that they should not have got. On the same day that that became apparent—I was in the office and remember it distinctly—every single one of the 106 was contacted directly by the Home Office and the following morning they had a letter from me apologising for the error. It was an error. We needed to hold our hands up when we recognised that and we fixed it.
In terms of your point about the system that we have now, I am talking about settled status. I argue that I can give you confidence—as I am confident—that the system will be different because it will be different. The decisions that are being taken, and have been taken, on permanent residency involve judging whether an EU citizen in the current situation, pre Friday’s agreement, can be granted permanent residency. There are a number of tests and requirements that they have to pass to get permanent residency, as Lord Cashman outlined. That is different from their ability to stay here under the free movement directive. In terms of granting settled status, what was agreed on Friday is different. In order to get settled status, somebody will need to evidence that they are an EU citizen living in the UK.
The Chairman: And that is all. That is it.
Brandon Lewis MP: That is it.
The Chairman: It has nothing to do with earnings or people being able to sustain themselves and so on. None of that is required.
Brandon Lewis MP: We are granting settled status to EU citizens who are living here and who do not fail a criminal record check.
The Chairman: Prove that you are living here, show your rent book, show that you have a property, and that is it.
Brandon Lewis MP: I would like to make it even simpler than all those things, but yes.
Baroness Ludford: You were referring to 106 cases in the summer but we are continually seeing press reports.
Brandon Lewis MP: I would urge caution on two sides. First, I am not pretending for a moment that no one ever suffers from a mistake being made in an individual case. It would be foolish for anyone in my position to claim that when we are dealing with tens of millions of applications of various types—visas, permanent residency and so on. My second point is that in a number of the cases that have been brought to me or that I have seen in the press—not all of them, but a number of them—what we see in the press is not always the entire story.
Baroness Shackleton of Belgravia: Minister, it appears from the press—as we know, the press is not always entirely reliable and does not always include the whole truth—that there is a sort of epidemic of EU cleansing. That is probably a bit emotive but many people have been deported since the referendum. In circumstances where there were grounds to deport them before the referendum, it is not entirely obvious why there are additional reasons to deport them after the referendum if those reasons did not exist before. Can you explain the anomaly of the figures going up post 23 June?
Brandon Lewis MP: On the first part, I appreciate your comment about it being an emotive term but, in terms of the press, my point is that you need to hear both sides of the story. I am not really criticising the press; it is reporting a story that has come its way. My point is that the people coming forward do not always explain everything. They do not say, “By the way, I didn’t fill this in and I didn’t qualify”, or whatever it might be. There are two sides to a story and I learned long ago to check both sides.
In terms of EEA nationals who have been deported, those decisions are taken in accordance with the directive on the free movement of people. We are going further and doing more to remove foreign national offenders. I make no apologies for that. In fact, I would like to go further generally—not in relation to the EEA but generally. There are EU citizens who have criminal records and commit criminal offences and whom we have the right to remove under the directive agreement. Since 2010, we have removed 41,000 foreign national offenders. Earlier this year, we hit a record level in that respect and it is right that we do everything we can on that. Some of them are EU citizens, and that number has increased, but so has the number for non-EU citizens.
Baroness Shackleton of Belgravia: Is it correct that the Government are targeting rough sleepers without proper recognition of their rights under EU law? I am talking about the typical person who would have a right to remain here and who has not committed a criminal offence but is sleeping rough because he has hit on hard times.
Brandon Lewis MP: Under the convention we have the right to remove people who are not exercising their treaty rights. There is obviously consideration of whether people are exercising their treaty rights or not, which goes potentially beyond criminals. But as your specific point is subject to a court decision at the moment, I am afraid that I will wait until I have had a chance to consider that decision this week.
The Chairman: I would like to press you on that figure. It is incredible that 41,000 people have been removed. Why were these folk not being removed before? I am going to follow that up because it could suggest something sinister. A problem was allowed to develop with people who should have been removed being allowed to stay in order to create the kind of, if you like, undertow that says, “People are staying here and they stay on even when they ought to be removed”. Why was the Home Office not deporting people with criminal convictions and who were not entitled to stay?
Brandon Lewis MP: That is something you will have to ask the previous Labour Government about because they did not remove them.
The Chairman: You are going back as far as that. What happened in the years before last year?
Brandon Lewis MP: I said that the figure of 41,000 that I just gave you goes back to 2010.
The Chairman: That is seven years. Why is it that since September of last year you have deported 41,000 although you had been in government for quite a while before?
Brandon Lewis MP: I am sorry, Chair, that is not what I said. That is wrong. I said since 2010.
The Chairman: Since then, 41,000 have been removed. How many have been removed in the last year?
Brandon Lewis MP: The year runs on a quarterly figure. Up to the summer figures, it was 6,346, but I will confirm the exact number. In the figures published last week the number had changed because of a court decision in June. It is now down to around 5,800 for the past 12 months. That June court decision prevented us from removing a particular group.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I think that the Minister is quite right to say that the problem predates this Government. Successive Governments have failed to do what ought to have been done, whether they were the coalition or even before that.
The Chairman: It is the failures of successive Governments.
Brandon Lewis MP: I would argue that 41,000 since 2010 is a good step and we hit a record figure this year. That is good news for the British public and we should continue to do everything we can to remove people who are criminals and a risk to our population.
Q15 The Chairman: I want to ask you this. One thing that you mentioned was mistakes. Members of this Committee have put to you the accounts of people who have received letters saying that they must leave, but those were the result of mistakes. You have said that it is not surprising given the tens of millions of applications that are received by the Home Office, so there are bound to be mistakes.
Brandon Lewis MP: I am sorry, but that is not quite what I said. I did not say that it was no surprise; I said that I am not going to pretend that mistakes never happen. That would be a foolish thing to say. However, when they do happen, my view is that we need to recognise that a mistake has been made, fix it and do what we can to ensure that it does not happen again, as we did with the 106.
The Chairman: There will be occasions where mistakes are made and they are not fixed. People will want to have recourse to law in order to have the decision adjudicated on. The Government have accepted a continued right of referral to the European Court of Justice on questions relating to citizens’ rights and that will carry on for eight years post Brexit. Is it envisaged that a similar agreement might be reached in respect of other issues in the withdrawal agreement to avoid regulatory divergence?
Brandon Lewis MP: If you look at the Prime Minister’s Statement to the House yesterday, it was clear that that is an agreement with regard to EU citizens and should not be seen to be a precedent for other issues in the future. That is a matter for future negotiations.
The Chairman: So at the moment it is confined to EU citizens, but they will have that right for eight years. Will that run from post the implementation period?
Brandon Lewis MP: The Supreme Court will, yes.
The Chairman: So we are talking about 10 years from 2019.
Brandon Lewis MP: If it helps, I can write to confirm the exact dates, but it will be eight years.
The Chairman: The transition period plus the eight years will take us to 10 years.
Brandon Lewis MP: I am very happy to write to confirm the exact dates, but it is eight years.
Q16 Lord Polak: I have a lot of sympathy about the press reports, but it is sometimes wrong to infer that what we read in a newspaper is something that is happening all over. Perhaps I may say that you have dealt with it very well. I am also impressed by your practical solutions while sympathising with the Government’s position, which is that you need to negotiate. Now there are people like us who want to know your every thought and move before you negotiate with the other side. Having said that, the joint report makes it clear that the rules relating to citizens’ rights should have a direct effect and that any inconsistent or incompatible rules and provisions would be disapplied. What sort of domestic court procedure do you expect to put in place to allow for this to occur?
Brandon Lewis MP: As I say, I am quite happy to set out more of the detail in writing after this session, but that will flow through the current British court system as it stands. I have absolute confidence in the British court system and my experience is that it will speak for itself and take a view that is right for the individual case that is being dealt with. I can give an example without going into individual cases. I saw a case earlier this summer that got an awful lot of press coverage. It concerned an individual who according to the press was struggling unfairly to get their position in the UK confirmed. When I looked into the case, having seen the reports in a Sunday newspaper, it turned out on the Monday morning that that particular applicant had not actually signed and returned a form that he had been sent. As soon as he did so, the matter was sorted out. That does not really qualify as a story.
There is a whole range of things in this. With the settled status system, even in the voluntary stage we will have an administrative appeals system and obviously there will be a legislatively structured system once we go through with the EU withdrawal Bill. There will be a statutory process down the line.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I wonder whether you can help me, Minister, because frankly I am puzzled by this part of your evidence. At the moment, if a rule contravenes directly effective EU law, whether the rule be in an Act of Parliament or otherwise, under the European Communities Act our courts, as I am sure you know, disapply the domestic rule and give effect to the paramount law of the EU. That is correct under the present system, is it not?
Brandon Lewis MP: Yes.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: What I do not understand is that if you red line away the ECJ and you no longer have the concept of the direct effect of EU law, how on earth can UK laws disapply, for example, an Act of Parliament that would otherwise violate EU law which no longer binds us? How can that possibly be?
Brandon Lewis MP: I am not sure that I read it in quite the way that you have just outlined. There are two stages which it is worth separating out. The first stage covers the voluntary scheme in the second half of 2018, which is a different thing. We will get to the statutory scheme when we have left. That will be outlined in British law and British courts will be able to apply it. I am sure that you will be taking evidence from my colleagues in the DExEU team on this. The law will flow through from the EU withdrawal agreement legislation, which will come before Parliament later next year. There will be a statutory basis on which the courts will be able to take a view on the interpretation or the implementation of British statute. One of the key things that we have said from the very beginning is that the laws and how we structure them will be set within British law.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Yes, I understand that you can legislate in the future, but I still cannot understand what it is you think you are going to be able to legislate for. Perhaps I may give an example. Let us take a real case. Years ago, women used to be discriminated against by a domestic law which said that they had to work more than x number of hours a week to get employment benefits. The Law Lords said that that was discriminatory against directly effective EU law and they did away with that restriction on the rights of women. That was because the EU law was paramount. Under your system, EU law will no longer be paramount, but you are saying that a UK court, in a system without a written constitution and which in theory makes Parliament sovereign, can somehow disapply a future Act of Parliament because it violates something or other that we have not yet got in law. That is what you are saying.
Brandon Lewis MP: No, I was trying to avoid getting into that kind of hypothetical comment. I accept that, once we have left the European Union, we will be outside those laws. The whole point of the EU withdrawal Bill before Parliament at the moment is to bring a lot of those laws into British law to give certainty and confidence to industry and individuals. The withdrawal agreement Bill, which will follow later in 2018, will outline issues such as EU citizens’ rights, which we are focusing on today. So there will be a piece of statute against which the courts will take decisions based on the agreement that we have with the EU, which we will put into British law through Parliament later next year.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: But do you understand that I am asking how on earth there can be a notion of disapplying a future Act?
Brandon Lewis MP: I am not talking about disapplying; I am talking about applying British law, which will reflect the agreement with the EU. Questions relating to the jurisprudence and the theory of what a court may do might be better directed at somebody else. I am focused on making sure that we can deliver the rights for EU citizens as outlined in the agreement we came to on 8 December. That will be done in legislation through this Parliament.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: The problem that I have is that, having read the joint report, I do not understand it. You are saying that you are the wrong Minister to ask. Therefore, I quite understand; we will ask somebody else.
Brandon Lewis MP: You are obviously welcome to ask somebody else. I may not quite be following exactly what you are asking. My logic is that EU citizens’ rights will be enshrined in British law, which British courts will be able to take a view on if a case comes before them.
Baroness Shackleton of Belgravia: Turning back to the point of appeal, if you are rejected or are unhappy with the answer, what law are we applying, which court do you go to and at what level? What is the top line or the bottom line of the final court of appeal if you are not satisfied with the answer?
Brandon Lewis MP: As I said earlier, putting aside the voluntary stage and when we get to the statutory stage—for want of a better description—for EU citizens’ rights, there will be a proper appeals process which we will outline early next year. If somebody feels that they need to take their case through the courts, there will be a process for it. Ultimately, the court’s decision will be based on that agreement being in British law, as will be outlined in the withdrawal agreement Bill that will come later next year.
Baroness Shackleton of Belgravia: Will legal aid be available for that?
Brandon Lewis MP: All that will be outlined as we go through that Bill later next year. I am not going to prejudge what is in legislation.
The Chairman: But you are saying that EU law will not apply.
Brandon Lewis MP: I am saying that the rights of EU citizens will be in British law, as in the agreement with the EU.
The Chairman: If we have further questions, we might address them to you in writing.
Q17 The Earl of Kinnoull: After the referendum vote, the very first report that this Committee wrote was on citizens’ rights. That was because we unanimously felt that it was a core area, with 4.5 million people depending on clarity in it. Our report was delivered in December last year. I observe—I am not asking you to comment—that, by convention, there is a response within two months, but actually the response arrived this month; that is, after a year. It is very unfortunate when the people looking for the response were not just 12 people; it was 4.5 million people out there. You are fresh to this brief. I hope that you will hurry things along when future reports appear, because the responses are eagerly awaited.
As part of that report, we called for a unilateral guarantee on citizens’ rights and made out quite a careful case as to why we felt that it was a good idea. In the spirit of wonderful optimism that is now around—I have been in two taxis in London in the past 24 hours and, hardly as my seat hit the leather, both taxi drivers were telling me what good news it all was—I want to ask what the situation will be for our citizens in Europe and for its citizens here if in the end we do not get full agreement on Article 50 and on an acceptable future relationship. As a sub-question, what happens to people who have been granted settled status? Where do they fit in, because that would be an interesting loop?
Brandon Lewis MP: I take your point about response times and I will endeavour to ensure that any reports that require a response from us are dealt with in good time. To be fair, the challenge with the report that you have outlined would have been linked to the fact that the British Government are putting together their wider offer. However, I take the point and I will endeavour not to delay with responses to anything that comes up.
Going forward, as I have said, I think that the Government’s intention is clear in the fact that before we potentially end the negotiations we will have started to grant settled status from the second half of 2018. As we have said from the beginning, we do not want EU citizens to leave; we want them to stay. We will be progressing on that basis. I am immensely confident that ultimately we will get a deal for the wider negotiations as well. But people who are granted settled status will have it and they will be able to stay.
The Chairman: That is very important to hear because what you are telling people is that if they apply for settled status and it is granted, even if there is no deal and we career off into the arms of the World Trade Organization, those who are settled here will retain their settled status and have the protections that have been promised to them.
Brandon Lewis MP: I have the added advantage of having absolute confidence in the fact that the Prime Minister, who people were saying two weeks ago would not get the agreement we got last week, will go ahead and get an agreement more widely as well.
The Chairman: Your confidence might not be shared by everybody.
Brandon Lewis MP: As I said, we should judge people on what they do. The Prime Minister managed to show us last week that she is more than capable of getting a good deal for the interests of the United Kingdom.
The Chairman: That is reassuring, but it is also reassuring to many people living here and those of our citizens who are living abroad that it is expected that there will be a commitment to and honouring of what has been secured by way of settled status in the months to come and that they will enjoy that whatever the outcome.
Brandon Lewis MP: As I said, the intention is to start that process and have them granted in the second half of 2018.
The Chairman: I am going to allow anyone on the Committee with final questions for the Minister to put them now. He is in his last few minutes.
Brandon Lewis MP: It is always the last question that at any event can go horribly wrong.
The Chairman: There will be one more after this. The Cross-Benchers are the people who nail you down.
The Earl of Kinnoull: I come without nails and I am most grateful for that last response, which will echo widely. It very much helps European Union citizens living here because they now know that when the IT system becomes available they will be able to, as it were, guarantee safety for themselves and their families. What legal protections would be available for UK citizens in Europe if things were to fall apart? Are you able to help us with that?
Brandon Lewis MP: We are working with the Commission at the moment on how to ensure the rights of British citizens. The agreement is clear that their rights are in place. I will happily come back to the Committee very soon on this, if Members can bear with me.
Lord Cromwell: I hope that this is not a nasty question, because it goes back to the mechanics and offers an opportunity to cheer us all up and pull us together a little. In the second half of 2018 we will have the new system that will be marvellous, easy to operate and everyone will be able to apply in a few minutes. That is good news. Pulling together some of the other comments you have made, are you committing, soon after Christmas, to publish three things? First, there is the list of documents that people are going to be required to produce, because that will be eating into their worries at the moment. Secondly, I think that you said that there will be a two-week SLA between hitting “submit” and getting a decision. Thirdly, will you publish how an appeal will work if someone is refused? If you could publish those three after Christmas, a lot of the uncertainties that we have been beating you up about would start to dissipate. Are you happy to make that commitment?
Brandon Lewis MP: Yes, with just one caveat, which is that for a large number of people, in particular those who already have permanent residency, they will not necessarily need to provide any evidence at all other than their permanent residency details, which we will have on record. Those will be even more streamlined and quicker to respond to. We will probably be looking at how we communicate with people, particularly in the voluntary stage. Certain groups of EU citizens living in the UK are easy for us communicate with, access and hold details on. For example, if you are an EU citizen living in the UK and working in the Civil Service, it is pretty easy for us to identify you and know that you are living and working in the UK. Being able to process and communicate with that group is easier than with some others who are here.
The Chairman: Would that include the National Health Service?
Brandon Lewis MP: Yes, those in public services generally. I am saying to organisations and sectors with individual large employers that we do not need or want access to their databases, but we can certainly give them information that they can then feed out in order that their staff can have confidence about those three elements. But yes, very early in 2018 I want to be able to advise people on exactly what the system will look and feel like, the speed at which it will work and what they will be required to do.
Lord Cromwell: That would be published rather like the letter from Theresa May.
Brandon Lewis MP: I cannot say exactly when, but very early in 2018.
The Chairman: Very early in the new year, thank you.
Baroness Shackleton of Belgravia: Can I add a fourth one? You mentioned it several times and it comes as a relief to me because I am a bit technophobic. It is how people who are not very good at IT or possibly illiterate will manage the system.
Brandon Lewis MP: Yes, we will, absolutely.
The Chairman: Minister, thank you very much. We look forward to seeing all of that in the new year and we will invite you back if we think that it is not happening fast enough. I hope that some of what you have said today is reassuring to European citizens living in Britain and to our citizens living abroad.
Brandon Lewis MP: Thank you. I wish all members of the Committee merry Christmas and a happy new year.
