Examination of witnesses
HE Dan Mihalache and HE Arkady Rzegocki
Q9 The Chairman: Your Excellencies, I want to thank both of you for coming to this session of our Committee. Your presence is very important because we want to gauge how people in other parts of the European Union are responding to what has been developing here in the United Kingdom.
This session is open to the public. A webcast of the session goes out live and is subsequently accessible via the parliamentary website. A transcript is made verbatim of your evidence, which will be put on the parliamentary website, but not before you are given a chance to have a look at it. You will receive a copy of the transcript within a few days and, if there is anything that you would like to correct, please advise us and we will make that possible. If, after today, you think of things that you would like to have said and would like to submit some further evidence in writing, please do; you are welcome to do so.
For the record, could you give us your names and then I know that each of you would like to make an opening statement, and I will invite you to do so. First, the ambassador of Poland.
HE Arkady Rzegocki: My Lord Chairman, His Excellency the ambassador, my Lords and Ladies, thank you very much for inviting me to this evidence session. I am honoured to be here, as my colleague is. I am very happy to share some views with the Committee.
Britain has a very special place in every Pole’s heart. It was the refuge of the Polish Government in exile for 50 years and for free Poles during World War II and in the time of communism. The Polish community is a mixture of descendants of those wartime and anti-communist exiles and those who decided to move to Britain after Poland joined the European Union. One hundred and forty-five Polish pilots fought in the Battle of Britain. They constituted the second-largest national contingent after the British. By the end of the war, almost 20,000 men and women served in the Polish Air Force in the United Kingdom. Polish and British soldiers fought together almost from the beginning of World War II in Europe, Norway, the Atlantic, British coastal defence, North Africa, Italy, Normandy, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, and in many other places.
In discussing Polish-British relations today, we should also remember the Polish input in shaping European democracy, especially by the continuous fight against the totalitarian regimes of the 20th century: Nazism, fascism and communism.
It is not only recent history that unites us; over the centuries, we have shared common values of freedom, we have similar parliamentary systems and we have cherished constitutional rights from at least the early 16th century. This is a legacy that unites us also today.
The post-Brexit status of European nationals, including Poles, living in the United Kingdom is far from clear. These citizens need to know how and if their rights are protected to understand fully the implications of Brexit. Thank you.
The Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. Your Excellency Mr Mihalache.
HE Dan Mihalache: First, thank you for this invitation and for this debate. The discussion about this issue is very important for us, for our citizens living here and also for you. I am beginning to think that we, as Romanians, regret the result of the referendum, but we respect it; it is the political will of your people that has been expressed.
We are interested in maintaining good, privileged relations between Romania and the United Kingdom. We have excellent political co-operation and excellent co-operation in matters of defence and security and in harmonising our positions in foreign affairs, so we think that this co-operation will go on.
The key words which I would say are important now for our citizens’ feelings are “clarity” and “predictability” because uncertainty causes problems for our citizens who live in the United Kingdom, and uncertainty is also difficult for your employers who work with Romanian citizens. Uncertainty also influences the general climate in society: what some call hate crimes or xenophobic reactions. From my point of view, this is one issue that you, together with the Government, should address. As my colleague from Poland said, our citizens need to know what the process and their rights will be, how this will go and what the steps will be.
There is a lot of rumour. We are not only friends, we are together, and then somebody spreads a rumour and says, “Okay, from 1 September, you will need passports to travel in the United Kingdom”, and then we, as an embassy, have pressure to issue passports—even though, as European citizens, they can travel with their ID cards. Or, “You will not be employed any more”. So clarity and predictability are necessary.
The Chairman: Thank you both very much for making statements about the situation of your citizens who live here in the United Kingdom.
I wanted some clarity—because, as you have heard, this is being televised, so people will be listening in. Could you give us a sense of the numbers? Do you have any sense of the actual numbers of, first, Polish people living in the United Kingdom and then of Romanian people who are currently living, working or studying here—in whatever capacity? Do you know the numbers, Your Excellency from Poland?
HE Arkady Rzegocki: The number of Polish nationals living in the United Kingdom increased from 70,000 in 2004 to around 984,000 in 2016, although the exact number is difficult to calculate because the British census only collects data on either Polish nationals or those born in Poland. The Polish nationals category does not include Polish migrants who have acquired British citizenship, while the category for people born in Poland does not include the children of Polish migrants born in the United Kingdom. So overall there are about 1 million Polish nationals; Poles are the largest ethnic minority in the United Kingdom and about 1.4% of the United Kingdom population are people who were born in Poland—which means that Polish is the second most spoken language now in the United Kingdom.
The Chairman: I imagine it has made a great difference to the Catholic Church in Britain and to other aspects of our lives, in that most people speak of having had skilled Polish workers involved in building projects and so on. What about students? Have you any idea of the breakdown on students?
HE Arkady Rzegocki: In general, about 92% of Poles are working or studying and about 9-10% are studying here in Britain. Every year, about 2,000 Polish citizens from Poland—because there are a lot of people of Polish blood here, as I mentioned, from the Second World War—also study in Britain. Britain is the most important destination for very good Polish pupils to study at your excellent universities.
The Chairman: Before I move on, there was the very shocking incident of one of your citizens being murdered in Harlow. I imagine that must have been a source of great distress in the Polish community. Perhaps you could tell us a bit about that before I turn to your colleague.
HE Arkady Rzegocki: It is a real problem that we have noticed an increase of such xenophobic behaviour and incidents after the Brexit referendum. In the Polish statistics, there is a 31% increase. From our perspective, our three consular services in Edinburgh, Manchester and London have counted 35 serious incidents, including the tragic one you mentioned, the death of Arek Jozwik in Harlow, which can be recognised and were reported by Polish nationals as hate crime—although many situations are still being investigated by the police, so we are not sure.
On the other hand, I have to admit, we have huge support from British institutions and very good co-operation with local authorities, the police and Ministers, and huge support from British society; I received many letters from British nationals, which is important for the Polish community and for us.
The Chairman: Thank you. Ambassador, again on numbers, how many Romanians do you have on record as being here in Britain?
HE Dan Mihalache: I have some estimates based on the data published in August 2016 by the Office for National Statistics and other relevant institutions. In UK households, there are 272,000 people coming from Romania, but the data covers only those who are over 16 years old. There are 200,012 Romanians employed in the UK, where the rate of employment within the Romanian community is 77%, and 185,000 Romanians have a national insurance number. Probably, we can add a lot to that because these figures cover only the registered people in the United Kingdom, and we estimate that there are around 400,000 using their right to travel and to work as EU citizens—so it is quite a big community, and we have a lot of students.
This is also a concern for our citizens because it is not only people who are working here who ask what will happen after Brexit; it is also the students. Will the projects continue; will the system of financing within the European Union continue; will their diplomas still be recognised or not? They have their concerns, separate from the concerns of the working people here.
The Chairman: Thank you.
Earl of Kinnoull: Your Excellencies, I wonder whether you could widen that out a bit. I am very interested in seasonal workers. I come from a rural area of Scotland where we have a lot of seasonal workers; I come across many from both of your counties on a daily basis. Are those on top of the numbers you have given us—I think they are—and, if so, do you have an estimate for those numbers as well?
HE Dan Mihalache: This is quite a difficult question because we have difficulties with the number of seasonal workers. There are a lot, but it is an ongoing process because, for instance, due to the economic crisis, some of the seasonal workers who were in Spain or Italy have slowly moved north, including to Great Britain. I cannot give you an estimate on this. I can tell you that they work in agriculture and in construction a lot; these are their fields, their domains.
HE Arkady Rzegocki: Unfortunately, I have not got such data because it is quite difficult to say, as my colleague mentioned, so we do not know exactly how many. Probably most of these people are not coming only for the season but moving perhaps from other parts of Britain, so it is difficult to say. I should underline that 1,000 Polish professionals are in Britain, so it is not only cheap labour and seasonal workers. Poles have created 22,000 businesses here; it is a huge contribution. Sorry, I do not have the data on people moving only for seasonal work.
Earl of Kinnoull: The point is that they are both numbers in excess of those you have given us and they are likely to be substantial.
The Chairman: Would you agree that the numbers are likely to be in excess of the numbers of people who are coming and doing regular jobs that are going to last throughout a year—as distinct from those who come simply for a particular period to help harvest soft fruit, for example in Scotland in the central belt, or different crops? Those seasonal workers come for a short time and are likely to be perhaps even double the figures you have given us of people who are doing what one might describe as more regular employment? Would that be right?
HE Arkady Rzegocki: I do not think so, but I do not have any research. I am an academic by background, so I am very careful about data. It is difficult to say, but I do not think so.
The Chairman: You do not think the numbers are as high as the Earl of Kinnoull suggested?
HE Arkady Rzegocki: More Poles than natives have work—20% more. I suppose that most Poles are looking for permanent jobs, which is why I am not sure about that question. Nowadays the situation has changed: from four years ago more Poles have been going to Germany than to the United Kingdom, because it is closer—so it is a dynamic situation, it is changing all the time. And the workers have not registered, which is why we do not know exactly.
HE Dan Mihalache: It is hard to say what proportion of people have stable jobs and what proportion come for seasonal work—but this is the labour market and the market demands these seasonal workers; they would not come if there was not a demand.
The Chairman: I think what the Earl of Kinnoull is saying is that the numbers are high and, if that is not available to supplement the normal workforce in Britain, there is a huge detriment that would have to be filled in some other way.
Earl of Kinnoull: Precisely.
The Chairman: This is not an attack on Romanians coming to do seasonal work; this is pointing out the important role played by people who come to do seasonal work that is not going to be easily filled—but you have no idea as to the numbers? You would be stabbing at it, it would be a guess?
HE Dan Mihalache: We cannot establish the number exactly.
The Chairman: Would anyone like to come in further on that?
Baroness Ludford: On a technical point, I think there have been a couple of references to the registration scheme. Does the registration scheme, which I think was brought in in 2004, still technically apply? In theory, does it apply to seasonal workers as well as non-seasonal workers? Thirdly, is it just applied in the breach—in other words, no one bothers with it, which is my impression? It was always, I think, a bit of window dressing, quite honestly.
The Chairman: Loosely applied.
Baroness Ludford: Does it even exist still in law?
The Chairman: The question is: is registration complied with or is it very loosely applied?
HE Arkady Rzegocki: We have the same problem with counting how many British people are living and working in Poland because there is no such duty. We know that 5,000 British citizens are registered in the Polish Office for Foreigners, but it is not necessary to do so, so I suppose the amount is a few times bigger than 5,000. So here we have a similar situation. The NHS is one factor, but it is 12 years since 2004 and many people are moving to different countries, going back to Poland and coming back to Britain. With freedom of movement, it is unclear and not easy to say.
The Chairman: For clarity, the registration system is to ensure that people can access services, for example health services should they become ill and services like that. That is the purpose of people registering. So people perhaps in a regular job, knowing they are staying for a while, might do it, but people coming for seasonal work or young people who do not think they will ever be ill might not bother doing it. The registration system is not legally required but it is something that a sensible person might do and some other people, for whatever reason, might not do. So there is no requirement in law to do it—is that right?
HE Dan Mihalache: Yes, it is, but we have the national insurance number, so the ones who have a job here or who seek a job or even who want to have some social services apply for a national insurance number. This is the basis, so I understand.
Q10 The Chairman: Can I take us on to the next question, which is: how many have acquired a permanent right of residence in the United Kingdom by virtue of European Union law? It is the people who have come, spent enough time and want that right of residence—perhaps they have children and so on—and they can do that under EU law. Do you know many Poles have done that?
HE Arkady Rzegocki: No, I have only general information about how many Poles are here, based on research and a bit about registering with the NHS.
The Chairman: If you had time, is it something that you could inform the Committee about?
HE Arkady Rzegocki: I can try to check it, but it is quite difficult to say because of this movement; there are so many people and they are not easy to count. Some of them have received British citizenship, so they have dual passports, which is also why it is difficult to say. We can check now because there are some very good research centres and they are trying to research this subject area.
The Chairman: If you have any further information that you could supply us with, that would be very helpful. Mr Mihalache, do you have any information on the number of Romanians who have acquired permanent residence here?
HE Dan Mihalache: We have various studies because the data exchange is not so simple, but I believe about 20% of those registered. I referred to the register.
The Chairman: You referred to 272,000.
HE Dan Mihalache: No, it is 185,000.
The Chairman: So 185,000 have become British residents?
HE Dan Mihalache: About 20%, I believe, have applied. This is our estimate.
The Chairman: So a fifth of them. Thank you.
HE Dan Mihalache: It is quite complicated. You have to have five years’ residence in the United Kingdom and go through some procedures which are not very simple.
The Chairman: Not easy?
HE Dan Mihalache: Not easy. Also, we have a lot of Romanian citizens who applied for British citizenship and got it, so they have dual citizenship.
The Chairman: Of course.
Q11 Lord Judd: If you look at it from the other side of the picture, do you have estimates for the number of UK nationals who are exercising their EU rights to live, work and study in your respective countries? I would be very interested to hear your comments.
HE Dan Mihalache: We have 2,190 British citizens currently residing officially in Romania: 920 for employment purposes, 241 for studies, 132 for permanent residence, 285 family members and around 600 with means of subsidy. These are the official figures.
Lord Judd: How many of those are in universities?
HE Dan Mihalache: For study, 241. You know, I would change the perspective a bit because we are being asked for numbers, which is interesting. But being in the European Union brought all of us, Romanian and British citizens, free movement of people, so people can be in Great Britain for three months and in Romania for six months. This is the great benefit and this is why, as a country that was under a totalitarian regime for 50 years, we know better how it feels to leave your country and to get out of the borders. When I was a child, I could not travel in the West because it was not permitted. The only permission my parents and I had was to travel in socialist countries. I could travel to Poland, for instance, or to my friends in the Czech Republic or to Hungary. So we feel this freedom of movement much more, probably as you do not feel it, because we had these restrictions. Figures and numbers are important, but so is the sense of moving freely around the world, working, changing your workplace everywhere.
The Chairman: The sense of freedom that comes from having had the lid of totalitarianism lifted from your lives?
HE Dan Mihalache: This was one of the main driving forces.
The Chairman: Does that make you feel that we may, to some extent, in the fullness of time, see a lessening of that because it is taken for granted—that because people have burst out and know what it is like to travel perhaps there will be a more settled sense within Romania itself?
HE Dan Mihalache: I think that this should be preserved. Figures of registration are important, figures are important and protection of the labour force is important—but our basic value as democracies is the freedom of working and travelling everywhere.
Lord Judd: I should declare an interest because I am involved in the governance of three British universities. Following on what the Chair has just been saying, would you agree, Ambassador, that, in the highly interdependent world in which we live, a relevant university must be an international community because the research, the study and the teaching need to be in that conscious reality of the nature of the world we live in? Would you agree with that?
HE Arkady Rzegocki: This is my subject because I am an academic and used to be a visiting scholar at Sidney Sussex, Cambridge. I really admired your universities because they are open, they are international and they have the highest level. This Friday, I am going to Cambridge with the Polish Minister of Development to meet the vice-chancellor and some professors to co-operate and to help make the relationship as good as possible. You are right, your level is because of this excellence which is going all over the world. That is true.
Lord Judd: It is terribly important to preserve that, whatever happens in Britain’s relationship with the European Union.
HE Arkady Rzegocki: The truth is also that you have had great soft power because of your students and the people who graduate going back to their countries, and they really admire British history, British culture, the British language, et cetera.
Lord Judd: I should declare another interest: a dear nephew of mine studied in the Central School of Art in Warsaw, which has been very central to the success of his career. It is also where he fell in love and has produced a wonderful Polish member of our family.
HE Arkady Rzegocki: Great. It is very nice to hear that.
Q12 Lord Judd: How many British people who have studied in your countries have acquired the right through EU legislation to permanent residence?
Lord Richard: Can we get the Polish figures?
The Chairman: Lord Judd asked about the numbers of UK nationals who are exercising their European Union rights to live, work and study in Poland. Do you have those numbers?
HE Arkady Rzegocki: Yes and no. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately because of our common attitude to freedom, United Kingdom nationals living in Poland do not need to register with the respective authorities. If they want, they can. We have 5,151 citizens of the United Kingdom registered in Poland as permanent residents, but my opinion is that the total is at least a few thousand more because every English language school has some natives. It is so popular among Poles to learn English and to pass the Cambridge exams that I am sure there are many more people. In the first half of this year, 267 United Kingdom nationals submitted an application for permanent residence—so we have such numbers and can only predict that there are many more.
It is also hard to say, but most Polish universities have English programmes and there are some Erasmus students, for example; some Polish universities have agreements with British universities and they exchange students for one or two terms. I do not know exactly how many British students are there, but there is such co-operation between our universities, and also at the academic level. I hope, and I will work on it, that this co-operation will be much stronger.
The Chairman: Thank you very much.
Q13 Lord Cromwell: This difficulty with the statistics is interesting because they are in conflict with the very freedoms that you so value; people are not required to register at the border which country they have come from, so that puts us in an interesting position when you are trying to make a case but do not have the statistical facts to back you up. As a comment on the migrant seasonal labour issue, the Committee may know that many seasonal labourers work a number of seasons. They work for a while in the textile industry, then they go to pick fruit and then they do something else. How do you try to gather those statistics? I am glad it is not my job.
None the less, if we can come back to looking at the contribution, we commonly say that EU nationals, particularly, I must say, from eastern Europe, make a very significant contribution in a range of ways to the UK, to our economy and to our cultural life. I will assume, if I may, that you both agree with that statement—and please, if the answer to this is no, let us just agree that it is no, but do you have any feel or statistical information about the main areas of contribution from your two countries? Are there particular professions and areas of business? I know that His Excellency from Poland mentioned 22,000 businesses being started by Polish nationals. Are there certain areas that your respective countries have tended to assist us with?
HE Dan Mihalache: The structure is very diversified. We have a great number of people who are highly skilled. There is a good contribution to your National Health Service, for instance, in doctors, nurses and dentists who work here. It is quite a high figure; I believe 10,000 or more people are working in the National Health Service. We have a lot of people who are doing business in the more skilled category, but there are also people who work in sectors that have limited interest for your labour workforce—as your colleague said, in agriculture, construction and caring for old people. The area is very diversified. We have people who are doing business here, but also people who are doing very low jobs.
The Chairman: Domestic cleaning?
HE Dan Mihalache: Domestic cleaning or something like it. We have many people who are, for instance, employed in the tourism industry. If you go to restaurants and bars in London or in Scotland—I was in Scotland this weekend—you can find a Romanian waitress or waiter working there. Also, you can find, for instance, the CEO of Canary Wharf who is a Romanian.
Lord Cromwell: That is a nice point scored. Can you do better than that?
HE Arkady Rzegocki: It is a very interesting and a very good question, but there is a huge diversity among Poles living here. There are a few hundred people working in the City, in banking, and there are a few hundred scholars and scientists. There are a lot of artists and a lot of people who work in London as a cheap labour force. In fact, I admire the fact that there is only 5% unemployment in Britain. There are a lot of migrants, but it looks as if the market works pretty well. In Poland nowadays, we have less than 8%, which is a huge success, but I admire the fact that here it is only 5%. Maybe I can add, as I mentioned, that 92% of Poles are in employment or studying. That is a huge number and unemployment among Poles is very low.
As you probably know, during the Second World War and after, Poles created many institutions. You mentioned the church, but around churches we also have some clubs, such as sports clubs. Volleyball is one of Poland’s favourite sports and Polonia—which consists of many nations, not only Poles—won the English championship last year. There are also about 180 Polish Saturday schools; there are Scout groups; and in almost every university there is a Polish society. So there is a huge contribution, and in Polish institutions there are also British citizens and British nationals—so that is a very important contribution.
Lord Oates: The United Kingdom has obviously benefited hugely from Polish and Romanian citizens working both in highly skilled professions such as the NHS and many others that you mentioned and in the seasonal work where we have labour shortages. Could you say anything about the impact on, respectively, the Polish and Romanian economies of large numbers of skilled and unskilled workers leaving? Has the fact that they leave and maybe go back contributed or been a detriment to your economies?
HE Arkady Rzegocki: Of course, we are worried about that. It is our problem, it is true, that so many Poles—low, medium and well educated—leave Poland, and we hope that they will start to come back. I hope that the situation in Poland will improve because we have had, in fact, huge economic success. From 1992 our GDP has grown every year and there has been no crisis. So I hope that the situation is improving and Poland will have less bureaucracy in running a business, so the situation is starting to change. Nowadays, as I mentioned, the number of Poles going to Britain is much lower than it used to be. They stay in Poland also because of a new programme of children’s benefits, which was introduced by the new Government. The benefits for children are equal in Britain and Poland nowadays—or almost equal. So, yes, I hope that more Poles and British workers will come to Poland because the opportunity may be bigger than in the United Kingdom.
Earl of Kinnoull: I want to go back, if I may, Your Excellencies, to seasonal workers. In my bit of Scotland, which is very agricultural, agriculture is the bedrock of the economy and we could not do any of it without the incredible seasonal workers, who are great fun, do not bring with them any problems and bring a lot of laughter and music. I am under the impression that a lot of them go home, that they have earned a lot of money and take their money home with them—and that, in fact, it is extremely important for the economies of your countries that the seasonal workers continue to come to Scotland as well. Could you confirm that?
HE Dan Mihalache: These two questions about the consequences for the economies somehow match. There are two sides of the coin: one good, one bad. The good one is that economic migration, as we call it in sociological terms, brings money back to our countries. The money transferred from, for instance, all the Romanians abroad—I do not speak especially about Great Britain because I do not have the figures—was between, in good times, €7 billion and, in crisis times, €3-4 billion a year. So for our economies this was a serious influx of money. It was from all the Romanians working abroad, not specifically from those in Great Britain.
The other side of the coin is that, of course, we lose a qualified workforce. Our contribution, for instance, to the National Health Service in Great Britain cannot be quantified because you know what the teaching process for one doctor costs.
The Chairman: It costs a lot of money.
HE Dan Mihalache: When I was in the government before being an ambassador, my specialists calculated that more than €100,000 is the cost of making a student into a doctor—which is our contribution to your National Health Service.
The Chairman: That is not taken into account in the great sums that are done on this subject. I would like to take us on to Baroness Hughes, please.
Q14 Baroness Hughes of Stretford: Good morning. We were interested in what reaction you have perceived, in your role as ambassadors, within your embassies following the result of the referendum and whether you were contacted a lot by your nationals living here. What level of concern were they expressing, what kind of concerns were they expressing and has that calmed down a bit or changed? What perception did you have of the reactions and concerns of your nationals?
HE Arkady Rzegocki: Thank you very much for this question. There is one thing I should add: studying in Poland is free, which means that the taxpayers are paying for this medical or other studies, so it is not the contribution of the individuals—or not only of the individuals, let us say.
After the referendum, we noticed two important things. First, Poles are afraid about the hate crime situation and the Polish media are very concerned about the situation in Britain—unfortunately, because I am always trying to underline that they are only incidents and that there is huge support from British society and British institutions. Yesterday, I met the head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission and we are trying to co-operate. Our ombudsman had met him before and we are trying to resolve the problem together.
Yesterday, I also had a very good meeting with the Lord Speaker and he agreed with me that we have to work more on education because the truth is that many, especially young teenagers, have no knowledge about our region, especially Poland. They know nothing about the Polish contribution during the Second World War and after, so that is a very important issue. This lack of knowledge is a very important feature which is making our co-operation more difficult, even at the business level. We have very good relations with the British ambassador in Warsaw, who also underlined that there is a huge knowledge barrier among British businessmen. They could make a good business in Poland but they do not know that Poland has such a huge market and that GDP is growing and there is such a good opportunity for good business.
The second thing is uncertainty, which is the biggest problem. They are asking about the future, including the future of their children. They are asking NHS questions, and it is not good for business, it is not good for economies and not good for families and individuals. They want to know and to have some perspective to know more about their future in this country.
The Chairman: Thank you.
HE Dan Mihalache: It was expected to be so—to have red phone lines to answer all the questions that the Romanian community was raising. What my colleague says is identical: uncertainty; what will happen; what will happen to their status; rumours that they will be expelled or not, that they will have to leave or not, that they will have to have passports or not, that they will have to have permanent residence or not; a lot of questions regarding the status of working people; what will happen to students and whether agreements will go on, which is a complicated financial scheme and I do not have the details; what will happen to the diplomas; and what will happen to the people who have paid their social contributions here in the United Kingdom. Some of the people want to return to Romania in an integrated European Union and there is a mechanism, but what will happen to this mechanism? Will the payments that they made in the UK be paid back as pensions and so on? Do they have to have registration certificates? Okay, we have heard some rhetoric in the last few days about how to register as foreign workers, which is not very encouraging for our communities.
Second, I think what the Government and all authorities have to avoid is some type of administrative harassment. For instance, if you want a resident’s permit and somebody takes your ID, the authority says, “Okay, we will keep it for six months”—which is a period in which this person cannot make other travel arrangements and so on. Or you cannot open a bank account or you cannot register for some service without having a passport. So there is the generous idea of reassuring people that the status of those citizens has not changed until the official leaving of the European Union, but there is also the daily practice that can bring by itself such administrative harassment, which I think we should avoid.
The Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. I am mindful of the time and we are getting to some crunchy questions for you, so I would ask you to be as brief in your answers as possible simply because of the time restrictions. Baroness Neuberger, please.
Q15 Baroness Neuberger: Following on from what you have just said, which rights that are at the moment enjoyed by both Polish and Romanian nationals in the UK under EU law would your Governments like to see protected as part of the UK withdrawal agreement? You mentioned some of the issues that are arising now. Can you say what your Governments would like?
HE Arkady Rzegocki: Thank you for the question. In the view of the Polish Government, all rights acquired by European Union nationals living in the United Kingdom should be protected. The United Kingdom Government should ensure legal clarity and certainty for the European Union nationals since, for years, they have been working with the United Kingdom and paying taxes here. All rights enjoyed by the European Union citizens remain equally important. For instance, the right of a worker who has children to take up a job in another member state could be violated if his children cannot attend a local school there. It is no use prioritising one right over another; we should aim to preserve all of them. It is also obvious to us that, in such scenarios, the rights of United Kingdom nationals living in the European Union should also be maintained. It is very important, as my colleague said, and it is a question of freedom and our close co-operation in the future.
The Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. That answer was very helpful.
Baroness Neuberger: Ambassador Mihalache, would you agree?
HE Dan Mihalache: Yes, I agree. But I would say that this goes both ways: for our citizens living in the United Kingdom and for UK citizens living in Poland.
The Chairman: There is a mutuality.
HE Dan Mihalache: It is mutual.
Baroness Neuberger: I think that answers my question.
The Chairman: Yes, and Baroness Shackleton’s question followed from that. Baroness Ludford, you had a question that you wanted to ask.
Q16 Baroness Ludford: Yes, indeed. My understanding is that at the moment a Polish, Romanian or other EU national acquires a permanent right of residence under Article 16 of the 2004 directive after five years’ residence under EU law. British Ministers—for instance, James Brokenshire, in July in the House of Commons when he was Immigration Minister—have stressed the point that there are no administrative formalities about that at the moment. In my mind, there is a lack of clarity because there seems to be a widespread perception that that is enough and that, if you have acquired permanent residence under EU law, you will be fine for the future. Could you enlighten me as to your understanding for your nationals who have lived here for five years about the situation that they have been told will face them? What, if any, formalities do they have to do post-Brexit to stay here? Are you asking the UK to adopt legislation granting all lawfully resident EU citizens a permanent right to reside once the UK leaves the EU? First, what is your understanding of the situation of those who have acquired permanent residence under EU law? Have they individually been told that they are fine in the future? Second, what about the others? Are you seeking UK legislation that everybody who is already legally here will be allowed to be here permanently?
The Chairman: Was the question clear? I want to make sure that we are all on the same page. Under EU law, if you are resident for five years, it is recognised that you have special rights and you have become a permanent resident of the UK. No process puts that in place; you do not have to go to the Department of Immigration to establish that. It comes with the fact that it is recognised that you have been here for five years, having come into this country and worked for employers over five years, and thereafter that you have EU resident status. What is being asked by Baroness Ludford is: are people expecting that to continue and that those people will be given special allowance here, or are you suggesting that anybody who came last week or who came before we left the European Union would acquire the right of residence? What distinction are you making?
HE Dan Mihalache: It is a complicated question and I am thinking about the answer. First, I do not know the issue very well. It is a resident’s permit not under EU law but under British law.
The Chairman: There are things that people can do from wherever they are in the world in order to become a British resident. There are special rules in relation to European Union membership which are different. What we are asking is: after a negotiated withdrawal, what is it that you are hoping to persuade the British Government to do with your nationals? Are you saying it is people who have been here for longer than five years, or that it is anybody who has been here at the point when the guillotine comes down and Britain leaves, or people who have been here for a year before the guillotine comes down? What is it you are asking for?
HE Dan Mihalache: First, to have clarity and predictability in this matter—so to know, if there is a cut-off date, what the date is. Is it the date of the referendum or the date of triggering Article 50? I do not know, but this is a very complicated scheme that has to be clarified. People should know what their status will be and from what point in time. They will have to settle their own situation under the rules of your country, which we respect.
HE Arkady Rzegocki: Yes, I agree with my colleague that the problem is uncertainty and that there is no clarity, as we mentioned, about this. It is for the United Kingdom to make the rules in the future. Relations between the European Union and United Kingdom should be based on reciprocity—that is obvious—and my dream is to keep freedom of movement and to keep all the rights and freedoms even after Brexit, although I know that it will be very difficult.
I said one thing to an English journalist—because of the hate crime situation I have given a lot of both short and longer interviews. One journalist asked me whether I had met anything unpleasant in Britain during my many visits and I said, “No, I like this country so much. I am so fascinated about British culture”—which is obvious. But there was one thing. I was talking with immigration officers in the 1990s at the border.
The Chairman: That was the only unpleasant experience you had?
HE Arkady Rzegocki: It was unfortunately an unpleasant experience. I had no problem with visiting Britain but it was not nice. I said that, thinking about the future, we should avoid these unpleasant situations for our citizens, both British citizens and European Union citizens.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. Lord Cromwell, you had a supplementary.
Lord Cromwell: Some people like to suppose that the UK is the number one choice for people trying to come out of your respective countries to another EU country. My question is: is that really true? Second, if we did make it more difficult or even closed our doors, which country would get the benefits we have talked about that we would then lose? Where would people want to go?
HE Arkady Rzegocki: That is a very difficult question because it is not so obvious that migrants will come to Britain all the time. For example, the United States used to be a very important country for Polish emigration, but it is not now; there are fewer and fewer Polish communities in the States, although there are quite a lot of students. As I mentioned, four years ago Germany became the first place on the list for Poles who were emigrating. For sure, any obstructions and problems will influence the individual decisions of Poles; I am sure that is so.
The Chairman: For Romania, is Britain top of the pops as the place to go to?
HE Dan Mihalache: No, the UK is not the first destination for Romanians. We have about 1 million people in Italy and around 1 million people in Spain—they are much higher. Britain was a privileged destination for white-collar workers because English is a very popular language in Romania and it is far easier to accommodate doctors in the UK because, if you are a doctor, you have to speak the language. If you go to Germany, it is more difficult to understand the patients than if you speak English. If you close the doors, some will stay, others will go—but the labour market in Europe will settle this with or without you.
The Chairman: The hand of the market will determine. Thank you both very much indeed for coming and giving us the benefit of your experience; it has been very helpful to us. If there is anything that you feel you would like to add by way of supplementary evidence, please send it to us. We will send transcripts to you in the next few days. I am very grateful indeed. Thank you both.
HE Arkady Rzegocki: Thank you very much for inviting us, and I am looking forward to co-operating in the future with you. It is an honour to be here. Thank you very much.
The Chairman: Thank you very much.
