Welsh Affairs Committee
Oral evidence: Broadcasting in Wales, HC 598
Wednesday 9 September 2026
Ordered by the House of Commons to be published on 9 September 2026.
Members present: Ruth Jones (Chair); Ann Davies; Simon Hoare; Gerald Jones; Llinos Medi; Andrew Ranger; Steve Witherden.
Questions 1-50
Witnesses
I: Delyth Evans, Chair, S4C, and Geraint Evans, Chief Executive, S4C.
II: Garmon Rhys, Interim Director of BBC Cymru Wales, and Rhys Evans, Head of Corporate Affairs, BBC Cymru Wales.
III: Zoe Thomas, Head of News and Programmes, ITV Cymru Wales, and Magnus Brooke, Director of Strategy, Policy and Regulation, ITV.
Written evidence from witnesses:
– [Add names of witnesses and hyperlink to submissions]
Witnesses: Delyth Evans and Geraint Evans.
Q1 Chair: Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to this oral evidence session of the Welsh Affairs Committee. My name is Ruth Jones. I am the Member of Parliament for Newport West and Islwyn and Chair of the Committee. Today the Committee is holding a one-off evidence session on broadcasting in Wales, and we have three short panels, with Welsh interpretation for those who require it among the Members, witnesses and those in the Public Gallery. Before I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves, do any Members have any interests to declare?
Members indicated dissent.
Chair: Will the witnesses introduce themselves—very briefly, please?
Delyth Evans: (Translation) Good afternoon, everybody.
(Continues in English) My name is Delyth Evans and I am the chair of S4C.
Geraint Evans: (Translation) Good afternoon.
(Continues in English) I am Geraint Evans and I am the chief executive of S4C.
Q2 Chair: Thank you very much and, as I say, thank you for appearing before us in person this afternoon; it is much appreciated.
Between the two of you, could you set out the state of play for S4C in the current media landscape? Obviously, we are here to talk about the charter, but could you give us a very broadbrush, but very brief, setting for it?
Delyth Evans: We are the only Welsh-medium public service broadcaster in the United Kingdom. We serve audiences across Wales and outside of Wales in all parts of the United Kingdom who wish to access our services. We have a linear channel, but we are increasingly moving towards digital platforms: we have a presence on YouTube, we are on iPlayer, we have our own player called Clic and we are on all the social media these days, as everybody has to be. We are increasing our younger viewers on those platforms, which is obviously a key audience to us, while maintaining our linear services, which are also very important for older audiences.
Q3 Chair: Thank you. Geraint, Delyth mentioned digital and online streaming. To what extent do global streaming services and other digital content pose a threat to S4C as a public service broadcaster?
Geraint Evans: Thank you, Ruth. I think there is a threat and an opportunity. Thanks for the opportunity to give evidence today, because we are at a critical time for the future of public service broadcasting in the UK and in Wales. A number of things have been passed, such as the Media Act. We are still waiting for the prominence code from Ofcom, which should be here in a year’s time or so. In the meantime, we are still having to compete for prominence on connected TVs. We have a new Green Paper from the Government, of course, which we will be happy to discuss. All these things are coming together at the same time as charter review, which will decide on the future funding of S4C. That is the key thing for us.
There are two key elements that really do feel important for S4C. One is prominence, so that we are able to compete on all platforms, on connected TVs, with other broadcasters, and the other is future funding. We were very pleased to see in the charter review that the Secretary of State is reinforcing once again that S4C needs sufficient funding. We were very grateful to hear that.
The question will be: what does “sufficient funding” mean, and for what purpose? For us, it has to be more than maintaining a linear TV channel. As Delyth mentioned, we have to serve numerous platforms—players as well as social media and YouTube—and that takes more money. In our submission on charter review, we very much made the case that S4C will need at the very least the same funding we have now, with inflationary increases, for a significant period to come, but we will need even more if we are going to be able to serve all audiences, including younger people, and to really tackle the competition that we face. The competition now is from the streamers, of course, and from YouTube, where people are increasingly spending their time—and people are not watching television as much any more.
All those things come together at a crucial point. I do not think I am exaggerating when I say that this is as crucial a time for S4C as when people campaigned for this channel, because without sufficient funding, the very future of S4C and Welsh language broadcasting is in jeopardy.
Chair: Thank you, Geraint. Let me bring in Steve Witherden.
Q4 Steve Witherden: Will you outline the reach of S4C in terms of viewers, and its economic impact in terms of commissioning content and supporting production companies in Wales?
Geraint Evans: Data is measured in lots of different ways now, Steve. We measure our linear TV reach, which can be, on an average week, around 300,000 people. The bulk of those are within Wales, but we reach audiences beyond Wales as well because of the Welsh-speaking diaspora across the UK, and also sometimes because our content, particularly maybe sports content, appeals beyond our borders. There is that reach in one sense.
Increasingly, we are also measuring the digital platforms. Following a recent development with BBC iPlayer—where we have gone into a new deal with iPlayer so S4C’s content is more prominent on the homepage, whereas previously it was in a walled garden where you had to go looking for it—we have seen the reach and the number of monthly active users on BBC iPlayer increase quite significantly from where it was last year. It is up from around 200,000 monthly users last year to 250,000 monthly users now. We are seeing that growth, but again, that underlines the need for investment in platforms and the importance of negotiating deals for prominence.
Q5 Ann Davies: Fe wna i siarad yn Gymraeg os yw hynny’n iawn. Yn eich hymateb i’r Papur Gwyrdd, gwnaethoch chi ofyn am gyllido dros nifer o flynyddoedd er mwyn sicrhau ansawdd rhaglenni Cymraeg ac i gael rhaglenni o ansawdd. Ydych chi’n hapus gyda’r cyfle rydych chi wedi cael a’r mewnbwn rydych chi wedi gallu rhoi mewn i’r broses o ymgynghori sydd wedi bod yn rhan o’r Papur Gwyrdd?
(Translation) I am going to be speaking in Welsh, if that is okay. In your Green Paper response, you asked about multi-year funding so that the quality of Welsh-medium programmes could be assured, and for there to be high-quality programmes. Are you happy with the opportunity that you have had and the input that you have been able to have as part of the consultation process around that Green Paper?
Delyth Evans: Fi’n teimlo ein bod ni wedi cael cyfle i fynegi barn a chael gwrandawiad teg. Mae gyda ni berthynas agos gyda swyddogion yn yr Adran Ddiwylliant, felly mae’r trafodaethau yna’n mynd yn eu blaen. Gwnaethon ni anfon papur i mewn yn cynrychioli’n safbwynt ni’n gryf iawn ac yn esbonio’r angen am barhad cyllideb ar gyfer darlledu trwy’r Gymraeg. Ers i ni roi’r papur yna i mewn, mae yna lot o fynd a dod wedi bod, cwestiynau ychwanegol, a maen nhw eisiau eglurhad. Fi yn teimlo ein bod ni wedi cael cyfle teg i fynegi’n safbwynt a dadlau’n achos, ond mae penderfyniadau mawr yn dal i gael eu gwneud, a bydd rheiny’n andros o bwysig i ni.
(Translation) I feel that we have had the opportunity to express our views, and we feel that we have been listened to fairly. We have a close relationship with officials in the Culture Department, so those discussions are ongoing. We sent in a paper that clearly represented our standpoint that there was a need for continuity of funding for Welsh-medium broadcasting. Since we put that paper in, there has been a lot of to-ing and fro-ing, lots of additional questions, and they want clarification on certain things. I do feel that we have had a fair opportunity to express our standpoint and argue our case, but these major decisions remain to be made, and they will be very important to us.
Geraint Evans: Ac eto, rydyn ni’n ddiolchgar i chi am ein gwahodd ni fan hyn i roi tystiolaeth heddiw. Dyw S4C ddim wedi rhoi tystiolaeth seneddol penodol ar adolygiad y siarter tan y pwynt yma. Fel corff sy’n cael ei gyllido gan y broses yma—gan y ffi drwydded—a bydd ein hariannu yn y dyfodol yn cael ei benderfynu o ganlyniad i’r broses yma, rydyn ni yn credu ei bod hi’n bwysig bod llais S4C yn cael ei glywed fel ein bod yn gallu parhau i wasanaethu ein cynulleidfaoedd ni gyda chyllid digonol ar gyfer y dyfodol.
Ar rai o’r pethau rydyn ni wedi gofyn amdanyn nhw, dw i ddim eisiau manylu gormod ar beth dw i wedi dweud yn barod, ond rydyn ni angen mwy na beth rydyn ni’n ei gael ar hyn o bryd er mwyn gallu gwasanaethu cynulleidfaoedd yn effeithiol. Os ydyn ni’n credu mewn darlledu gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, os ydyn ni’n credu yn nyfodol yr iaith Gymraeg, os ydyn ni eisiau i bobl ifanc fwynhau cynnwys S4C, mae’n rhaid i S4C fod yn gallu gwasanaethu ar blatfformau maen nhw’n gwylio ac mae hynny’n gofyn am gyllideb tipyn mwy na chyllideb teledu llinol fel mae wedi bod yn y gorffennol.
Yr un pwynt arall hoffen i ei wneud o ran yr adolygiad siarter ac un pwynt sy’n bwysig i ni; yn ogystal â’r ffi drwydded sy’n ariannu S4C gyda tua £100 miliwn ar hyn o bryd y flwyddyn, rydyn ni hefyd yn cael cyflenwad o raglenni gan y BBC, sy’n cyfateb i tua £20 miliwn y flwyddyn. Un o’r pwyntiau dw i wedi ei wneud yn eithaf clir yn adolygiad y siarter yw ein bod ni’n awyddus nid yn unig i sicrhau bod ’na gynnydd chwyddiant i’n cyllideb ni, ond bod yna gynnydd chwyddiant yn cael ei warchod ar gyfer y cyflenwad rhaglenni yna hefyd, achos heb hynny, mae ’na berygl y gallai fod yn agored i gael ei dorri. Rydyn ni’n ymwybodol o’r heriau ariannol y mae’r BBC yn eu hwynebu ar hyn o bryd. Mae posibilrwydd y gallai hynny effeithio ar gyflenwad rhaglenni S4C. Beth ry’n ni’n gofyn i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol i’w wneud, felly, yw diogelu’r cyflenwad yna yn adolygiad y siarter fel bod y gwerth yna, yr £20 miliwn, yn cael ei warchod a’i gynyddu gyda chwyddiant.
(Translation) We are very grateful to you for inviting us here to give evidence today, because S4C has not given parliamentary evidence specifically on the charter review until this point. As an organisation that is funded by this process—by the licence fee—and as our future funding will be decided on the basis of this process, we feel that it is important for S4C’s voice to be heard so that we can continue to serve our audiences, given this big issue of sufficient funding for the future.
On some of the things we have asked for, I do not want to go into too much detail in terms of what I have already said, but we need more than we are currently receiving in order to be able to serve audiences effectively. If we believe in public service broadcasting, if we believe in the future of the Welsh language, if we want young people to enjoy S4C content, then S4C has to be able to serve them on the platforms that they view. That requires considerably greater funding than linear television funding, as it has been in the past.
The other point that I would like to make about the charter review, which we have emphasised as being important to us, is that in addition to the licence fee, which funds S4C with about £100 million per year at the moment, we also have a supply of programmes from the BBC that corresponds to a value of around £20 million a year. One of the points that we have made quite clearly in the charter review process is that we are eager to ensure not only that there is an increase in our budget, but that there is an inflationary increase that is protected for that supply of programmes as well. Without that, there is a danger that that supply is open to being cut. We are very aware of the challenges that the BBC are currently facing and the possibility that that could have an impact on the supply of programmes for S4C. We are asking the Secretary of State to safeguard that supply in the charter review, so that that value of £20 million can be protected and can increase with inflation.
Q6 Ann Davies: Galla’ i jyst dilyn lan gydag un peth ar hwnna? Fi’n gobeithio daw hi byth i hyn i ddweud y gwir, achos mae S4C yn agos iawn i’n calonnau ni i gyd yma—fi’n siŵr o hynny. Y’ch chi wedi gorfod dechrau meddwl beth fydd yn dod—beth y’ch chi’n mynd i orfod torri, neu fel ma’r sianel yn mynd i edrych—os nad yw’r arian yn dod i warchod beth sydd gyda ni ar hyn o bryd?
(Translation) May I follow up on one thing? I hope that it will never come to this, to be honest, because I can assure you that S4C is very close to all our hearts, but have you had to start thinking about what the outcome may be—where you may have to cut or how the channel is going to look—if the funding is not forthcoming, in order to protect what we currently have?
Geraint Evans: Mae gyda ni gynulleidfaoedd mor amrywiol i wasanaethu, ac eisoes, gyda’r cyllid sydd gyda ni, sydd yn cynyddu gyda chwyddiant ar hyn o bryd, mae ’na benderfyniadau anodd i’w gwneud. Os y’ch chi yn dechrau gwasanaeth newyddion digidol, oedd ddim i gael chwe blynedd yn ôl, mae’r arian yna’n gorfod dod o rywle. O ble mae’n dod? Mae’n dod o’r gyllideb rhaglenni. Os y’ch chi yn buddsoddi mewn cynnwys ar gyfer YouTube, ac mae’n rhaid i ni wneud achos dyna ble mae pobl ifanc yn cael eu cynnwys, o ble mae’r arian yna’n dod? Wel, o’r gyllideb rhaglenni. Heb hynny, mae ’na rywun arall yn mynd i fod yn sgrechian amdano fe yn rhywle arall. Yn yr un modd, gyda’r buddsoddiad nawr mewn cynnwys ar gyfer TikTok, Instagram a dramâu ar gyfer y platfformau yma ar gyfer pobl ifanc, mae yna wasgfa.
Beth rydyn ni’n poeni mwyaf amdano fe gyda’r cytundeb cyflenwad rhaglenni gan y BBC yw ein bod ni’n clywed gymaint am y wasgfa ar y BBC a bod disgwyl iddyn nhw arbed £500 miliwn. Rydyn ni yn poeni y gallai hynny effeithio ar gyflenwad rhaglenni S4C. Dw i a Delyth wedi dod heddiw o gyfarfod gyda’r cyfarwyddwr cyffredinol newydd, Matt Brittin, lle fuon ni’n trafod yr union beth yma ac yn gwneud ein pwynt ni’n eithaf clir, ein bod ni’n poeni am unrhyw effaith y gallai hyn ei gael ar wasanaethau i’n cynulleidfaoedd ni. Mae’r sgyrsiau yna yn mynd i barhau. Beth rydyn ni’n ei ddweud yw bod eisiau cytundeb partneriaeth newydd rhwng y BBC ac S4C, ac mae angen edrych yn ddyfeisgar ac yn arloesol ar beth yw anghenion cynulleidfaoedd wrth symud ymlaen, bod y cytundeb rhaglenni yna yn addasu er mwyn gwasanaethu’r cynulleidfaoedd yna.
(Translation) We have such varied audiences to serve. With the funding we have, which is increasing by inflation at the moment, there are already difficult decisions to be made. If you start a digital news service that was not available six years ago, that money has to come from somewhere. Where does it come from? From the programmes budget. If you invest in content for YouTube, as we have to do because it is where young people get their content, where does that funding come from? From the programme budget. Without that, somebody else might be screaming out for it from somewhere else. At the same time, with the investment that we are making in content for TikTok and Instagram, and in dramas for young people on those platforms, there is already pressure.
What we are concerned about specifically with the supply of programmes with the BBC is that we are hearing so much about the pressures on the BBC and how it is expected to save £500 million. We are concerned that that could impact on the supply of programmes for S4C. Delyth and I have come from a meeting with the new director general, Matt Brittin, where we have been speaking about this exact subject. We made the point quite clearly that we are concerned about the impact that this might have on the services that we offer our audiences. Those discussions are ongoing. We are saying that there needs to be a new partnership agreement between the BBC and S4C, and we need to look innovatively and pioneeringly at what the audiences will look like moving onwards. The programme agreement needs to adapt in order to serve those audiences.
Q7 Andrew Ranger: I will return to English, if I may. It is great to see you both again. To follow on from what you were just saying, in your response to the Government’s Green Paper you referred to the unique partnership with the BBC. Could you go a bit further on how that partnership has improved S4C’s overall offer to viewers in Wales?
Geraint Evans: The partnership exists on several levels, in some ways. We have co-located to Central Square in Cardiff. Transmission for BBC Wales and S4C comes from that building. Efficiencies have come about due to the co-location.
The iPlayer relationship, which we have already mentioned, gives S4C more prominence. That has certainly been beneficial to us. We have seen a significant increase in the number of viewers seeing our content. We have more features to come online as a result of that, with children’s content—within the children’s sign-on to BBC iPlayer—being more prominent. That will come online hopefully next month. We are still seeing the benefits of the digital relationship, as well as of the existing relationships.
The content relationship has always been good. The BBC produces our TV news programme—“Newyddion S4C”— for us, which gives us a fantastic service. The standard of journalism on it is outstanding. It gives viewers in Wales Welsh news as well as international news, told from their perspective. If you look back at the fires in France earlier this summer, a reporter from “Newyddion S4C” who was out there ended up on “BBC News at Ten”, which had not sent anyone to cover the fires. “Newyddion S4C” was there first thanks to the relationship that we have with the BBC. It does benefit us.
The long-running soap “Pobol y Cwm” is made by the BBC. That is still delivering audiences for us—and not just linear TV audiences. We are also seeing the consumption of soaps on digital platforms such as iPlayer and Clic. We are now releasing that content on the morning of transmission, and people are viewing it before it goes out on air. A lot of those benefits have come about as a result of the good relationship that we have had with the BBC over a number of years.
Q8 Andrew Ranger: I think we all remember well our trip to the set of “Pobol y Cwm”—it was great, wasn’t it? To flip that around a bit, from your perspective, what benefits does the BBC derive from its partnership with you?
Geraint Evans: The BBC has to achieve its public purpose as part of the charter, and I think S4C helps it to fulfil those public purposes in the content that it produces for us and that we transmit on S4C. We provide public interest news from a reliable source, which I think is highly important in the present context. I think that relationship enables the BBC to fulfil, in a TV context, its public purposes. Also, working in a relationship with S4C means efficiencies within the BBC. You can ask the BBC itself about this, because it will know more about it than me, but its newsroom is built on a model in which you have TV, radio and online in Welsh and English, so there are benefits for the BBC of being a producer of content for S4C.
Chair: We can certainly ask them because they are following you after this.
Q9 Llinos Medi: Wna i ofyn yn Gymraeg hefyd. Mae lot o’r cwestiynau ro’n i wedi meddwl eu gofyn wedi cael eu hateb, sef yr amlygrwydd yn dilyn y cytundeb efo iPlayer a beth mae hynny’n ei olygu i S4C. Y cwestiwn nesaf ydy, ydych chi’n meddwl bod yna le i’r model yma gael ei ddefnyddio gan ffrydwyr a darlledwyr i gydweithio? Ydy hyn yn gam ymlaen, ydy e’n esiampl da, ac ydych chi’n meddwl bod yna gyfleoedd eraill ar gael?
(Translation) I will speak in Welsh as well. Lots of the questions I was going to ask, about prominence following the agreement on iPlayer, and what that means for S4C, have been answered. The next question, then, is do you think there is scope for this model to be adopted for streamers and broadcasters to collaborate? Is it a good step forward, does it show a good example, and are there other opportunities available?
Geraint Evans: Mae cael amlygrwydd ar blatfform fel yr iPlayer yn rhywbeth sydd efallai ychydig bach yn haws i’w gyflawni oherwydd y berthynas arbennig sydd gyda ni gyda’r BBC. Roedd y sgyrsiau’n adeiladol iawn ac ro’n nhw’n gweld gwerth mewn rhoi gofod i’r cynnwys Cymraeg sydd gydag S4C ar eu platfform nhw. Wrth gwrs, mae gennym ni ein platfform ein hunain rydyn ni’n ei reoli sef S4C Clic.
Lle mae’n mynd yn fwy anodd wrth gwrs ydy pan ni’n sôn am amlygrwydd ar deledu clyfar. Roedd y Ddeddf Cyfryngau yn rhoi mesurau yn eu lle er mwyn sicrhau amlygrwydd i ddarlledwyr fel S4C ar deledu clyfar. Tan fod cod amlygrwydd Ofcom yn cael ei weithredu—a dyw hynny ddim yn debygol tan ddiwedd flwyddyn nesaf—mae’n golygu ein bod ni ar hyn o bryd yn gorfod mynd i negodi’n uniongyrchol gyda Sky, Virgin, Samsung, LG a’r rhain i gyd, er mwyn sicrhau bod ap S4C yn gallu bod yn flaenllaw ar eu platfform nhw.
Y maes newydd ry’n ni i gyd yn siarad amdano fe nawr yw YouTube achos mae cymaint o bobl yn cael eu cynnwys ac yn gwylio YouTube yn gyson. Roedd adroddiad “Media Nations” Ofcom yn ddiweddar yn cyfeirio at y ffaith bod 61% o boblogaeth Cymru yn gwylio YouTube bob wythnos. Felly mae’n dangos bod yna awch mawr am hynny. Mae plant yn gwylio lot o YouTube—rhyw awr y dydd, mae’n debyg. Mae’r angen i S4C fod ar y platfform yna yn hollbwysig.
Beth sy’n anodd i ni wedyn yw rheoli pa ofod ry’n ni’n ei gael ar y platfform, sut mae pobl yn darganfod ein cynnwys ni, ac ydy’r algorithm yn gwthio pobl at gynnwys yn yr iaith Gymraeg? A buon ni’n poeni am hyn. Roedd YouTube wedi dweud wrthon ni, “Chi’n rhy fach i gael statws partner busnes gyda ni”. Ond, diolch i fyrddau crwn DCMS gafodd eu cynnull yn gynharach eleni, ry’n ni nawr wedi dod i berthynas well gyda YouTube. Ry’n ni’n cael sgyrsiau gyda nhw am amlygrwydd. Mae’r Papur Gwyrdd presennol ar ddyfodol darlledu yn mynd i’r afael â hyn, yn galw arnon ni fel darlledwyr a YouTube i ddod i berthynas wirfoddol i roi amlygrwydd i PSBs. Os nad ydy hynny’n digwydd, mae’r Llywodraeth yn dal yr hawl i orfodi hyn. Dw i wir yn gobeithio y gallwn ni ddod i berthynas wirfoddol. Os ddim, efallai y bydd angen mwy o nerth braich arnyn nhw i’w perswadio nhw i roi amlygrwydd i ni.
Lle mae hyn hefyd yn eithriadol o bwysig ydy, fydd y Gymraeg ddim ar YouTube os nad ydy S4C yn cael amlygrwydd yna. Dyw crewyr cynnwys ddim yn mynd i greu cynnwys ar gyfer YouTube a gwneud bywoliaeth ohono fe yn y Gymraeg. Maen nhw’n gallu gwneud hynny’n Saesneg. Dim ond trwy gael S4C i’w comisiynu nhw y gallwn ni ddatblygu rhwydwaith o grewyr cynnwys Cymraeg sy’n gwneud y Gymraeg yn iaith fyw ar blatfform mor bwysig â YouTube.
(Translation) Having prominence on the iPlayer platform is something that is a bit easier to deliver because of the special relationship that we have with the BBC. Those conversations were constructive and they could see the value in making space for S4C content. Of course, we also have our own platform that we manage, which is S4C Clic.
Where it becomes more difficult is when we are talking about prominence on connected TVs. The Media Act put measures in place to ensure that there was prominence for broadcasters such as S4C on connected TV. Until the Ofcom prominence code is published—which is not likely till the end of next year—that means that, at the moment, we have to go into direct negotiations with Sky, Virgin, Samsung, LG and all the others to make sure that the S4C app can be prominent on their platforms.
Then there is the new arena that we are all talking about now: YouTube. There are so many people now who get their content and regularly view their content there. Ofcom’s “Media Nations” report recently referred to the fact that 61% of the population of Wales watch YouTube every week. It shows that there is a big appetite for that. Children spend a lot of their time on YouTube—about an hour a day, it appears. The need for S4C to be on that platform is vital.
What is difficult for us is to then manage what space we get on that platform and how people find our content. Is the algorithm pushing people towards content in the Welsh language? We are concerned about that, and YouTube told us, “You are too small to have a business partner status with us.” However, thanks to roundtables with DCMS that were convened earlier this year, we now have a better relationship with YouTube. We are having conversations with them around prominence. The current Green Paper on the future of broadcasting does address this. It calls upon us as broadcasters and YouTube to come to a voluntary relationship to give prominence to PSB. If that does not happen, the Government is entitled to enforce this. I very much hope that we can come to a voluntary relationship. But if that is not the case, then there may be a need for a little more power of their elbow to actually give prominence to us.
Where that is also incredibly important is that the Welsh language will not be on YouTube unless S4C is given prominence there. Creators of content are not going to create content for YouTube and make a livelihood out of it through the medium of Welsh. They can do that in English. It is only through S4C being able to commission them that we are going to be able to develop a network of Welsh-medium content creators that make the Welsh language a living language on an as important a platform as YouTube.
Q10 Gerald Jones: I want to ask about some possible changes to the BBC’s public purposes. If those changes are made, how can minority language broadcasting be recognised and strengthened in those changes?
Delyth Evans: In part of our submission to the charter review process, we emphasised the importance of recognising the importance of minority language as part of the BBC’s public purposes. We know how important it is in Wales, but there are other minority languages in Scotland and Ireland that would also need that kind of recognition. We felt it was important that that was enshrined in the new charter—that commitment to supporting languages across the United Kingdom. That is one of the things that we made very clear in our own submission.
Q11 Gerald Jones: The BBC’s fourth public purpose is to “reflect, represent and serve the diverse communities of all of the United Kingdom's nations and regions”. Does that complement or compete with S4C’s objectives?
Delyth Evans: It very much complements our objectives. We are both public service broadcasters and public service media organisations. Our role is to represent the communities across Wales, and the BBC across the whole of the United Kingdom. Our strapline is “showing our world through the Welsh language”—“dangos ein byd drwy’r Gymraeg”. That is about giving a voice to communities. Ofcom has done quite a lot of interesting research on what people value in public service broadcasting from both the BBC and S4C. It is about hearing their own lives and seeing their own experiences reflected back at them. In a world that is so dominated by the big American streaming platforms, having somewhere representing our communities and our cultures in both Welsh and English is absolutely critical to the future of how the UK operates and to us bringing people together. That is part of the role of the BBC and S4C.
Geraint Evans: And there has been talk of growth becoming another public purpose for the BBC, so that the BBC can be a catalyst for economic growth. We feel very much the same way. In some ways, we adopt the public purposes that the BBC has in what S4C does. What you will see from the funding that S4C gets from the licence fee is: the GVA that is delivered is around £1.70 for every £1 that we receive from licence fee funding; we support 2,500 jobs around Wales; and we support work and skills development in communities all over Wales. Of our spending, 57% of that is spent outside Cardiff, which is very important to us, because we want to support skills development and growth in the creative industries in north-east, north-west and west Wales, as well as in Cardiff. We would very much adopt that public purpose.
Q12 Chair: Before we finish this session, is there anything else that you came here with a burning desire to tell us that we have not managed to bring out in the questioning yet? We will be talking to the DCMS and making sure that we state the case for Wales, but is there anything else that you need to tell us?
Delyth Evans: Only to emphasise a point that this Committee understands only too well, which is the vital importance of S4C to both the future of the Welsh language and the creative economy in Wales. That needs to be protected and funded sufficiently for all the constituencies represented here. We feel that we are delivering for our audiences and the Welsh economy, and we want to see that continue in the future.
Q13 Chair: Geraint, is there anything you wanted to say?
Geraint Evans: I think we have outlined the importance of the need for sufficient funding and for clarity of funding for multiple years, if the Committee goes back and reports on that. Without that clarity, you cannot plan; it does not enable you to get sporting rights for big events or to plan for commissioning dramas and films such as “Effi o Blaenau”, which has been such a standout success for us this summer. All those things that are notable become so much more difficult, and it becomes so much more inefficient for the businesses that serve S4C to operate without that clarity of funding. The sufficiency and clarity of it are really important for S4C and the future of the channel.
Chair: Thank you very much. On behalf of the Committee, I would like to thank you both for coming here today; you have made your case very clearly.
Witnesses: Garmon Rhys and Rhys Evans.
Q14 Chair: Welcome back to our second panel on broadcasting in Wales. Can I ask our witnesses to introduce themselves?
Garmon Rhys: I am Garmon Rhys. I am the interim director of BBC Cymru Wales.
Rhys Evans: Prynhawn da. I am Rhys Evans, head of corporate affairs and policy for BBC Wales.
Q15 Chair: Brilliant, thank you very much. It is good to see you both again. We are looking at BBC Cymru Wales now. How well do you think BBC Cymru Wales is performing in the current media landscape?
Garmon Rhys: BBC Wales plays a unique role in Welsh national life. We reach 88% of the audience every week, provide trusted news and information services, reflect Wales to itself and the rest of the UK, support Welsh culture, and help sustain democratic debate and understanding.
Our challenge is that we need to change the way we serve audiences in both languages. Consumption habits are changing, and we have been going through the process of changing the way we work and the way we deliver our services for many years, but that change is only accelerating. We want to ensure that we remain the most trusted, valued and relevant media organisation in Wales, so we need to do more to continue to grow our reach on our digital platforms, but also do more on third-party platforms. But the challenge is that we need to do that while our funding is under significant pressure. The fundamental challenge is that 94% of people in the UK consume the BBC every month, but only 80% of households pay the licence fee. My concern is that, without reform of the licence fee, we will be facing a position of managed decline.
Rhys Evans: I would start by saying how vital it is that we are having this debate today. This is a pivotal moment, not just for BBC Cymru Wales institutionally but for Wales as a nation. So much of Welsh culture, be that Anglophone culture or Welsh language culture, relies on what BBC Cymru Wales and—you heard from them just now—S4C do.
We are in the charter review process, and we are very much listening to what our audience is saying. We had a very big survey out last year that had 38,000 respondents. To go over it very briefly, 92% of Wales said that it was very important that the BBC continues to provide trusted information. Some 85% said that it is important that the BBC provides the best home-grown storytelling, and 74% said that it is important that the BBC uniquely brings the nation together. Alongside that, there is a clear desire for the BBC to have greater independence, and for its independence from any Government to be reinforced. Alongside what Garmon just said about financial pressures, those are the key things we are looking at in the charter review, having also listened to our audiences.
Q16 Ann Davies: Diolch i’r ddau ohonoch chi am ddod yma heddiw. Allwch chi danlinellu cyrhaeddiad BBC Cymru o ran yr effaith economaidd i Gymru a hefyd y cyfle i greu a chynhyrchu yng Nghymru? Beth yw’r cyrhaeddiad yna?
(Translation) Thank you for joining us today. Could you outline the reach of BBC Cymru Wales in terms of its economic impact for Wales and the opportunities for creating and producing content? What is that reach?
Garmon Rhys: Mae’r effaith economaidd yn sylweddol iawn. Rydyn ni’n amcangyfrif bod ein heffaith ni ar GVA Cymru y llynedd yn £330 miliwn, a’n bod ni wedi cynorthwyo i gynnal tua 4,000 o swyddi. Rydyn ni’n comisiynu cynnwys fideo a sain o ystod eang o gwmnïau yng Nghymru, a hefyd yn gweithio gyda nhw i ddatblygu syniadau newydd a datblygu cynnwys. Felly dwi’n credu bod ein heffaith ni yn bellgyrhaeddol ar draws Cymru.
Wrth gwrs, mae gyda ni ganolfan sylweddol yng Nghaerdydd. Rydyn ni hefyd yn falch iawn o’r rôl mae’r BBC yng Nghymru wedi’i greu, yn tyfu’r clwstwr creadigol yna o amgylch Caerdydd. Ond yn amlwg, mae’n staff ni’n gweithio ar draws Cymru, ac mae gyda ni hefyd ganolfan sylweddol iawn ym Mangor sydd yn ganolbwynt i nifer o ddarllediadau Radio Cymru hefyd.
(Translation) The economic impact is very significant. We estimate that our impact on Wales in GVA was £330 million last year and that we assisted in supporting about 4,000 jobs. We commission video and sound content from a wide range of companies in Wales, and we also work alongside them to develop new ideas and content. I think that our impact is far-reaching across Wales.
We of course have a significant centre in Cardiff, and we are very proud of the role the BBC has created in Wales in growing the creative cluster around Cardiff. Obviously, our staff work across the length and breadth of Wales, and we also have a significant centre based in Bangor that is a focal point for a number of Radio Cymru broadcasts.
Q17 Ann Davies: A stiwdio fach yng Nghaerfyrddin hefyd, os ga i ddweud.
(Translation) And a small studio in Carmarthen, if I may add that.
Rhys Evans: Stiwdio bwysig. Fel rhywun a gafodd ei eni yng Nghaerfyrddin, mae’n stiwdio bwysig iawn.
Ga i ychwanegu at yr hyn ddywedodd Garmon? O ran gwerth BBC Cymru a hefyd y rhwydwaith yng Nghymru, rhwng y ddwy elfen yna, rydyn ni’n sôn am wariant o tua £214 miliwn. Os ydych chi’n ychwanegu’r hyn mae S4C yn ei gael drwy ffi’r drwydded—y llynedd, tua £98 miliwn—rydyn ni’n sôn am wariant rhwng y ddau beth o tua £312 miliwn. Y llynedd, roedd Llywodraeth Cymru yn gwario oddeutu £200 miliwn ar ddiwylliant a chwaraeon. Mewn geiriau eraill, does yna ddim byd yn dod yn agos at, nac yn cymharu â gwerth ffi’r drwydded, a thrwy hynny y BBC ac S4C. Dyna pam bod y foment hon mor bwysig, nid jyst i chi, gyda phob parch, fel seneddwyr, ond hefyd i gymdeithas gyfan yng Nghymru i ddeall y cyfle, ond hefyd beth sydd yn y fantol.
(Translation) That is a very important studio, as someone who was born in Carmarthen.
Can I add to what Garmon said? In terms of the value of BBC Cymru and the network in Wales, we are talking about an expenditure of about £214 million between those two elements. If you add that to what S4C gets through the licence fee, which was about £98 million last year, we are talking about an expenditure between those two of about £312 million. Last year, the Welsh Government spent about £200 million on culture and sport. In other words, nothing comes close to or can compare with the value of the licence fee and, through that, the BBC and S4C. That is why this moment is crucial not only for you, with all due respect, as parliamentarians, but for the whole of society in Wales to understand the opportunity, but also what is hanging in the balance.
Q18 Ann Davies: Ga i ymestyn ychydig bach ar hynny? Pa fath o waith ydych chi’n ei wneud o ran dadansoddi beth mae eich gwylwyr chi eisiau—a’ch gwrandawyr chi, wrth gwrs? Mae Radio Cymru ymlaen gyda ni drwy’r amser yn y car, a nifer ohonom ni, dwi’n siŵr. Pa fath o ddadansoddiad ydych chi’n ei wneud o ran data a gwybod beth mae pobl eisiau?
(Translation) May I expand a little on that? What type of work are you doing to analyse what is wanted by your viewers, or listeners of course? I have Radio Cymru on all the time in the car and I am sure that is the case for a number of us. What kind of analysis do you do in terms of data and knowing what people want?
Garmon Rhys: Mae hynny wedi newid yn sylfaenol dros ein gyrfaoedd ni’n dau yn y BBC. Wrth i ni wneud mwy a mwy ar blatfformau digidol, rydyn ni nawr yn cael data yn ôl y funud sy’n dangos yn union beth mae ein cynulleidfaoedd ni’n ymwneud ag ef, a beth nad ydyn nhw. Os ewch chi i’n hystafelloedd newyddion ni, er enghraifft, at dimau Cymru Fyw a’n timau ar-lein ni yn Saesneg, maen nhw’n dilyn y data yna’n ofalus iawn. Weithiau, maen nhw’n edrych ar stori ac yn meddwl, "Dydyn ni ddim yn cyrraedd y gynulleidfa gyda hwn. Beth sy’n bod, a sut allwn ni ddenu’r cynulleidfaoedd i mewn?" Felly rydyn ni’n edrych yn ofalus iawn, ac yn gwrando ar ein cynulleidfaoedd ni drwy’r data yna. Ond rydyn ni hefyd, wrth gwrs, yn cynnal sesiynau gyda grwpiau o’n cynulleidfaoedd ni. Rydyn ni’n gwrando ar adborth ein cynulleidfaoedd ni. Mae honno’n broses ddyddiol o ran y timau sy’n darparu ein cynnwys ni, ond dwi’n credu ei bod hi’n deg dweud ein bod ni’n gwrando ar ein cynulleidfaoedd fwy na rydyn ni erioed wedi’i wneud.
(Translation) That has changed fundamentally over both our careers at the BBC. As we have done more and more on digital platforms, we now glean, minute by minute, data that shows exactly what audiences are engaging with, what they listen to and what they don’t. If you go to our newsrooms, for example, the Cymru Fyw teams and our online teams in English, they follow that data very closely. Sometimes you look at a story and think, “We’re not reaching the audience with this, so what’s wrong and how can we attract that audience in?” So, we look very carefully and we listen to our audiences through that data. Of course, we also hold sessions with groups of our audiences. We listen to feedback that our audiences give. That is a daily process for the teams providing our content. I think that it is fair to say that we listen to our audiences more than we ever have done.
Q19 Andrew Ranger: It is great to see you both again. Could you set out for us what the BBC Cymru Wales ask is for charter renewal?
Rhys Evans: The first point that we would emphasise, which has been touched on, is reform of the licence fee. This is urgent. There is a choice here, and it is a whole-society choice. We can either set the BBC on a continuing course of managed decline, or recognise that there needs to be urgent reform of the licence fee. The BBC currently faces a £500 million deficit, which in Wales translates to about £9 million in savings and the closure of at least 50 FTE roles in BBC Wales, but additionally and as importantly, a reduction in the number of independent TV, radio and digital companies that we commission from. So, reform of the licence fee is not an esoteric or abstract question; it is an urgent and vital question if we collectively want not just to hang on to what we have, but to grow the presence of BBC Cymru Wales as a trusted voice with news, high-quality entertainment, drama, orchestral music and so on in Wales.
The second point that I would emphasise is independence. Independence from Government is vital if our people are to have confidence and trust in the BBC. The final point is regulatory reform so that the BBC can, in a very fast-moving media landscape, adjust and, as we have just discussed in terms of understanding audiences, serve audiences appropriately across a range of platforms.
Q20 Andrew Ranger: What specifically was the process that BBC Cymru Wales had? What was the process whereby you could feed into the BBC response to the Government Green Paper on charter renewal?
Rhys Evans: It has been a very thorough process, including internally in the BBC. Garmon and I have been engaged over many months in the charter review process and, as you would expect, making the case for, arguing for, not just BBC Wales institutionally but what the BBC does in Wales. Externally, fora such as this are hugely important in making sure that collectively there is recognition of the needs and the voice of Wales. The final point is that engagement with DCMS is very good, very strong. For example, tomorrow I have a meeting with DCMS in which we will be looking specifically at the needs of Welsh language broadcasting, alongside other minority language requirements, on the BBC.
Andrew Ranger: That is really good to hear. Thank you very much.
Q21 Simon Hoare: Are we not in danger of just accepting the year-on-year reduction in people paying the licence fee as a fait accompli? What, if any, representations or ideas has the BBC fed into Government about pausing and then reversing that trend?
Garmon Rhys: The BBC has stated very clearly the implications of not reforming the licence fee, but the decision on the revised funding mechanism is one for Government.
Q22 Simon Hoare: The Committee will appreciate that, but has the BBC given to Government some suggestions as to how that could be done?
Rhys Evans: As you would expect, those talks with Government are ongoing. There is a process. The BBC is very much in listening mode around what the best means of securing sufficient funding to deliver our universal requirements are.
To your point, there are three key questions. First, there are the means. Does the future licence fee, or whatever you want to call it, allow the BBC to deliver its universal mission? Secondly, there is the mechanism. Thirdly, there is the question of the sum that would be levied on individuals to pay for the future requirements of the BBC.
We are between the Green Paper and the more definitive, harder White Paper, which is why this meeting is so helpful and important. Those conversations are ongoing. The BBC is still listening. As I am sure you will have seen, we have ruled out two specific proposals for raising money for the BBC. The first is subscription, which would fundamentally change the nature of the BBC, and definitely BBC Cymru Wales. The second potential solution is advertising. Again, that would not be a helpful idea. As we have seen with the sad news from Channel 4 today, advertising revenue across the whole of the UK is under a huge amount of pressure. The BBC entering that market would destabilise the precious PSB ecosystem we have even further.
Garmon Rhys: As part of that whole discussion, there has been talk of a household levy as a potential option because that model is in operation in some European countries. Again, it is ultimately for the Government to decide, but modernising the scope of the funding model could also be a realistic way.
Q23 Simon Hoare: Obviously, it is up to the Government to decide, but is the answer to the question “yes”? Has the BBC put to Government some thoughts or suggestions on either an alternative funding model or how to make the current one work more effectively?
Rhys Evans: The prospect of effective status quo is an option. We need reform and the numbers bear that out. There are 3.7 million households in the UK that do not presently require a licence—the no licence needed households. Last year, 500 million fewer people paid the licence fee. No effective change is not an option. However, as you would expect, we are in an ongoing process with DCMS around what the best solution is for the BBC and for broadcasting in the wider sense.
Q24 Simon Hoare: Just in the interest of time, in response to Mr Ranger’s earlier question, you said that your proportion of the £500 million savings would be £9 million. You also mentioned an FTE headcount reduction of approximately 50, with a knock-on effect to the supply chain in and around the creative industries. What is that £9 million as a percentage of BBC Cymru’s annual budget?
Garmon Rhys: It is just above 10%.
Q25 Simon Hoare: What about the 50 redundancies as a percentage of the workforce?
Garmon Rhys: Just below 10%.
Q26 Simon Hoare: So, it is about a 10% reduction on both?
Garmon Rhys: Yes. But as well as employing our own staff who deliver our content, we also commission from the independent sector.
Q27 Simon Hoare: While difficult, is that liveable with?
Garmon Rhys: I think it is challenging because if you look at what we provide in Wales, all our services are unique, and whatever we step away from or do less of, there is not another party that will step in and fill that gap. Our concern is a scenario where we appear in front of the Committee annually to talk about further reductions. That is why the funding is critical.
Rhys Evans: To your liveability test or question, we need to bear in mind that across this charter licence fee period, BBC Wales is down by around £30 million in our buying or spending power, which equates to around 25% of our budget. For the last 16 years, there have been nine licence fee freezes, so the incremental pressure on BBC Cymru Wales has been ratcheted.
Simon Hoare: Yes, it has been compounded.
Garmon Rhys: And the efficiency challenge increases, because, as we have delivered year-on-year efficiencies, we have to go more into changing content to deliver those savings.
Q28 Simon Hoare: My final question is that the BBC director general, slightly bizarrely, some might argue, recently declined to guarantee the future of BBC Scotland. That is for the Scots to sort out, but should we also regard BBC Cymru Wales as potentially at risk or does the uniqueness of the language service ringfence it?
Garmon Rhys: I personally could not imagine a BBC without BBC Cymru Wales. I think we play an integral part.
Q29 Simon Hoare: I am sure your Scottish counterpart would say exactly the same if they were asked about the future of BBC Scotland. But as your own director general recently declined to guarantee, as I understand it, when asked a specific question about the future of BBC Scotland—
Rhys Evans: Can I add to what Garmon was saying there?
Q30 Simon Hoare: No. If you could answer the question, that might be quite helpful. Should we also regard BBC Cymru Wales as being at risk?
Garmon Rhys: I do not regard BBC Cymru Wales as being at risk, no.
Q31 Simon Hoare: And have you had that assurance from the director general?
Garmon Rhys: I have not had any conversations to suggest that there is any risk to BBC Cymru Wales.
Q32 Simon Hoare: The absence of a conversation does not necessarily mean that it is safeguarded. In the light of the failure to guarantee with regard to Scotland, has it not crossed your mind to ask the director general’s view on Wales?
Garmon Rhys: I do not perceive a risk to the future of BBC Cymru Wales, so that is not a conversation I have had, for that reason.
Q33 Simon Hoare: As a result of this exchange, might it be?
Garmon Rhys: Again, I think the contribution of BBC Cymru Wales to the delivery of BBC services in Wales is fundamental, and I cannot foresee that position being under threat.
Q34 Simon Hoare: But I make the point again: your Scottish counterpart would likely answer exactly the same question in exactly the same way. He or she would see the Scottish brand of the BBC as very important. You clearly see that with BBC Cymru Wales, and we all do, but in the light of the absence of a guarantee, has it not crossed your mind just to check in with a short email to the director general?
Rhys Evans: No, for the simple reason that there is no risk whatsoever to BBC Cymru Wales. The far bigger risk to BBC Wales is a process of continuous, continuing cuts such as the ones we have seen since 2017. As I said, we now need to save £9 million. In all likelihood, there will be additional savings up to 2028-29, not just for BBC Cymru Wales but for the rest of the BBC. Unless there is future licence fee reform, we are set on that inevitable path of managed, continuing decline. To answer your question very directly, BBC Cymru Wales is here to stay, but I am not so confident about the type of content that we presently produce and distribute so effectively, because we just do not have the money for it.
Simon Hoare: I hope your confidence is well founded.
Q35 Chair: Thank you, Simon. You have clearly identified the safety of BBC Cymru Wales. The Committee would want to make sure that the Welsh language, heritage and culture involved in the BBC, ITV and S4C is protected, and obviously we would stand behind you there. You talked about the managed decline. The £500 million cut is significant. Even I have noticed it in this place. When I first started, when we were interviewed, we would have a cameraman and a lighting person as well as the reporter-journalist, and now we are down to two if we are lucky.
Simon Hoare: Or a man and a phone.
Chair: Yes. Now it is sometimes just one person, as Simon says, with a phone. I am anxious because these are people’s jobs, and once they’re gone we do not get them back. So how are you managing this? Obviously, any cut is dangerous. How are you managing and working with it?
Garmon Rhys: You as Members will have seen how we have driven efficiencies, as you have described. We need to continue to look for efficiencies and challenge ourselves in terms of whether we are operating as effectively and cleanly as possible. Particularly as technology continues to evolve, that will be a continuing area of scrutiny. In terms of looking at how we approach the challenge of reducing our spend by £9 million in the first instance, we have two principles. We aim to sustain output with the highest audience value and impact, and also meet audiences where they are and not do anything that prevents future routes to growth or impacts activities in areas where we already face challenges, such as reaching younger audiences.
We are looking at the potential of more than 50 FTE post closures. We engaged in the voluntary redundancy expression of interest process with staff across the summer. We are working through our savings plan in parallel and are currently concluding that process. We will talk to staff and the sector about our plans relatively soon.
Chair: Thank you. Llinos Medi is next.
Q36 Llinos Medi: Diolch. Yn yr ymateb mae’r BBC wedi’i roi i’r Papur Gwyrdd, roedden nhw’n sôn am agor platfformau i ddarparwyr cynnwys eraill ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig, a hefyd archwilio i mewn i bartneriaethau strategol. Yn eich barn chi, sut fyddai BBC Cymru yn gallu elwa o hynny?
(Translation) Thank you. The BBC’s response to the Government’s Green Paper talked about opening up platforms to other content providers across the UK and also looking into new strategic partnerships. In your view, how will BBC Cymru Wales be able to benefit from that?
Rhys Evans: Mae gennym ni brofiad o fod wedi dod â phartner arall i mewn i bethau, sef S4C ac iPlayer. Dwi’n meddwl bod hynny’n stori gwbl ardderchog, o ran sut mae partneriaid darlledu gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yn gallu gweithio gyda’i gilydd er budd y cyhoedd. Fe wnaeth Prif Weithredwr S4C, Geraint Evans, sôn am y twf sylweddol iawn sydd wedi bod i gynnwys S4C ar iPlayer yn ystod y misoedd diwethaf.
O ran agor llwyfannau eraill ar gyfer dibenion y BBC, rydyn ni wedi cyhoeddi partneriaeth gyda YouTube ym mis Ionawr eleni. Mae’r gwaith yna yn ffocws penodol iawn i BBC Cymru oherwydd llwyddiant y cynulleidfaoedd—dwi’n siŵr eich bod chi i gyd yn gweld hyn ar eich aelwydydd chithau—a llwyddiant sylweddol iawn YouTube, wedi dyblu o ran gwylio ers 2022, gyda 14% o wylio yng Nghymru. Felly mae’r cwestiwn yna o sut rydyn ni’n ymwneud. Un llwyfan trydydd parti yw YouTube, ac mae gennym ni lot o gynnwys bellach wedi’i deilwra ar gyfer YouTube, a rydyn ni hefyd yn ymwneud â llwyfannau eraill.
Yn ogystal â chyflenwi cynnwys, yr ail elfen yn hynny i gyd, ochr yn ochr ag arian, wrth gwrs, yw pa mor hygyrch a gweladwy yw ein cynnwys ni. Does dim pwynt cynhyrchu lot fawr iawn o gynnwys os nad oes neb yn gallu ei ffeindio fe. Felly mae’r trafodaethau hynny, yng nghyd-destun y Papur Gwyrdd ar y cyfryngau—y media Green Paper—nawr yn parhau. Mae’r trafodaethau hynny yn allweddol, nid dim ond i’r Deyrnas Gyfunol gyfan, ond fydden i hefyd yn awgrymu, ar gyfer buddiannau Cymreig hefyd.
(Translation) We have experience of bringing another partner in: S4C and iPlayer. I think that is a fantastic story about how partners in public service broadcasting can work together for the benefit of the public. The S4C chief executive, Geraint Evans, talked about the significant growth that has been seen in S4C content on iPlayer during the past few months.
On opening up other platforms for the purposes of the BBC, we announced a partnership with YouTube in January this year. That work is very much a specific focus for BBC Cymru because of the success with audiences—I am sure you all see that in your households—and the significant success of YouTube, having doubled in terms of viewing since 2022, with 14% of viewing in Wales. YouTube is one third party platform, and we have a lot of content already tailored for YouTube and we are also involved with other platforms.
In addition to providing content, the second element, alongside money, is how accessible and visible our content is. There is no point in producing a very large amount of content if no one can find it. Those negotiations and discussions in the context of the media Green Paper are ongoing, and those discussions are key not only for the United Kingdom in its entirety, but I would suggest, for Welsh benefits as well.
Q37 Chair: As we bring your session to a close, I want to make sure there is nothing else you want to say. We gave S4C the opportunity. Is there anything that you feel we missed or did not cover in our questioning? Rhys, do you have anything you want to add?
Rhys Evans: Thanks, first of all, for having this conversation; it has been valuable and helpful. My main parting shot—a polite message to you—would be to move at pace to recognise the scale of audience change and funding pressures on PSBs overall and, particularly from a self-interested perspective, the BBC. When it comes to engaging with the rest of the charter process and the White Paper, be bold and make the case, as I am sure you will, for Wales.
Garmon Rhys: To pick up on what Rhys said, I have just one thing. We talked about the funding mechanism. We touched on this at the beginning. For us, continuing to evolve our services in response to far-reaching and accelerating changes in the way that audiences consume content is critical. We face the challenge of trying to navigate an uncertain future in terms of our income while also transforming the way we deliver our services.
Chair: Thank you, both of you. I will now suspend the session while we switch witnesses.
Witnesses: Zoe Thomas and Magnus Brooke.
Q38 Chair: Welcome to our final panel. It is good to see you both before us. Will you briefly introduce yourselves?
Zoe Thomas: Thank you. I am Zoe Thomas and I am the head of news and programmes at ITV Cymru Wales.
Magnus Brooke: I am Magnus Brooke and I am group director of strategy, policy and regulation for ITV.
Q39 Chair: We have heard from S4C and BBC Cymru Wales. Where does ITV Cymru Wales sit in the Welsh broadcasting landscape? You are competing with both of those, and they have very distinct remits and purposes. How do you fit into that?
Zoe Thomas: We probably have a two-part answer to that: the ITV Cymru Wales bit and then the wider ITV land as well.
For ITV Cymru Wales specifically, we are the only commercial PSB in Wales. We are the only other provider of national and regional news, in contrast to the BBC, which provides for both BBC and S4C. On a practical level, we employ 100 staff, as well as the 300 who are employed by ITV Studios and Boom. We provide that plurality: a different voice and a vital difference to our other PSB partners.
What is quite often forgotten, because we are the smaller partner in the PSB stakes in Wales, is that as well as the four hours of news every week, we also provide 78 hours of English-language programming every week. We are a national broadcaster in that sense, but we are also a provider of content to the other broadcasters, whether that be through the long-standing arrangements we have with S4C to make programmes like “Y Byd yn ei Le” and “Y Byd ar Bedwar”, or whether it is the network unit, which increasingly makes content for both the BBC in Wales and ITV. In Wales, specifically, we have a two-part role. We are a smaller partner, perhaps, but we are a really fundamental part of that cornerstone of the creative economy. Then, obviously, ITV has a wider role as well.
Magnus Brooke: At a network level, as ITV, what we are trying to do as a public service broadcaster is reflect the whole of the UK to itself. We are the biggest commercial public service broadcaster, and we have a nationwide role in reflecting the UK. Of course, part of the UK is Wales, so a really important thing for us is to make sure that we are showing Wales to the whole UK and we are showing the rest of the UK to Wales. That is our role as a distinctive UK player.
One of the things that we have made a very active effort on over the last three or four years is building more network production coming out of Wales. We have a very good relationship with Creative Wales that we have fostered over the last two or three years. We took a lot of commissioners down to Wales a couple of years ago and opened ourselves up to all the production community in Wales to foster those connections, rather than expecting people to come to London. We are going to repeat that in January of next year because it was very successful, and we now have a really good relationship with Creative Wales.
I am pleased to say that, as we speak, we are filming a couple of network dramas in Wales. There is something called “Code Zero”, which is a thriller that will be on next year. An even bigger thing for us is “Majesty”, which is a really big period drama about a young Elizabeth I in the court of Henry VIII. It has some big-name Welsh talent in the lead on it, which we have not announced yet. Both of those are done in partnership with Creative Wales as well.
That is how we see it, and after the BBC we are probably the biggest commercial investor in production across the UK, both in relation to all the various genres of programmes and to network news—national and international news—which is clearly a UK-wide dimension. We have an ITN correspondent in Wales who reports on Wales for the network news and so on.
Q40 Ann Davies: That is very interesting, considering the link between the Tudors and Wales. That is the little link there, so we will see how that develops—it will be lovely.
Magnus Brooke: Yes.
Simon Hoare: Ann is available. I think that was her bid!
Q41 Ann Davies: I am Elizabeth I—wrong colour hair, but never mind!
Going back to business, the licence fee obviously does not affect you, but will the settlement have any effect on the work that you do, how much money you have or how ITV Cymru sits within the PSB in Wales? Does the charter review affect you in that way at all?
Magnus Brooke: Yes, it does. Zoe deals with the specific bits in Wales, but it really does affect us. The point is that it is an ecology. There are three sources of funding for the UK broadcasting ecology: there is the licence fee, advertising and subscription. It does matter to us; the BBC is substantially and proportionately funded from public resources, so it would make a big difference to us, for example, if the BBC was funded through subscription or even advertising. That would have a serious impact on the commercial broadcasting sector and would take money out of the overall ecology.
ITV is both a PSB, through our channels business and ITVX, and a programme maker. We make a lot of programmes for the BBC across the UK, and we make some of their biggest titles through ITV Studios and various labels in ITV Studios. It matters to us as a creative business that the BBC is well-funded and has sufficient resources—and, of course, that it is efficient as well, which is also important. One of the pressures we feel is the extraordinary competition that we face from the SVODs, YouTube and more traditional competitors. We have had to get incredibly efficient and make enormous efficiency cuts to maximise the amount of value we put on screen. But we recognise the pressure that the BBC has been under from the declining licence fee, and we want a sustainable and proportionately funded BBC form public resources.
Zoe Thomas: From a Welsh point of view, there is all of that, but on a very national level, in terms of Wales, that competition is a good thing—having a strong, healthy competition drives up standards for us both. It means that there are opportunities for the people working in Wales to move between two or three really strong broadcasters. I already mentioned the programmes that BBC Wales are commissioning from us now, and obviously a weakened BBC might mean that that form of income stream disappears for us. It is incredibly important that the BBC has a strong and sustainable economic future.
Q42 Ann Davies: We have a huge creative industry in Wales—it is just so important. What does the charter renewal need to do to achieve the maximum growth or output and safeguard the culture and language in Wales?
Magnus Brooke: The most important thing it needs to do is establish a more sustainable funding model for the BBC from public resources. As you have heard, most people in Britain are consuming from the BBC, but an increasing number are not paying for it—for a variety reasons; some of that is evasion and some is that they are legitimately not using the BBC services. It benefits the UK to have a universally available and universally funded BBC. That is our perspective as ITV.
We do not have so much of a perspective on exactly what the mechanics should be. I think that is ultimately a political question about how you want the BBC to be funded and what the mechanics are. Do you extend the obligation to pay the licence fee, for example, to people who are consuming other sorts of services? That is one option, and of the few remaining options left on the table, it seems to be one of the leading options. We do not have a significant view about that. We do have the view that there should be fair competition, and therefore we would be very concerned if you had an extended mechanic that did not cover all the relevant competitors, so you would want to make sure that, if you were going to put an obligation on people to pay the licence fee because they use ITVX or More4, that it also covered Netflix, Amazon and particularly YouTube.
The growth of YouTube has been extraordinary, in both viewing and advertising. In the last two or three years they have pretty much doubled their consumption in the UK, across all demographics—not just young people—and it is long-form, high-quality, highly produced content. There are some extraordinary stats. More than half of YouTube consumption in the UK now is on the big television set. That is such a rapid change from a world where people were looking at cats on skateboards on their phone. That is not YouTube any more. They say themselves that they are television. That is a grandiose statement, but they are on the way to being that, if they are not there already. To make sure that there is a playing field for everybody else, we would be concerned that you didn’t exclude certain people if you were going to say, “You have to pay the licence fee if you are consuming one service or another.” That would be our main observation about potential mechanics.
Q43 Ann Davies: We know that advertising has a huge effect on ITV, as well as on Channel 4. What is your perspective on the possibility of the BBC opening up to other platforms and starting to engage with them more fully? I know they have dipped into YouTube—they are dipping into the BBC iPlayer system—but what do you think about their developing other systems or partnerships that would give them a platform for their programmes on other platforms, such as Prime?
Magnus Brooke: If the question is whether the BBC ought to go to where audiences are, in terms of how audiences choose to consume content, absolutely they should. It takes you back to the conversation we were just having about the universal availability and funding of the BBC. Clearly, if more than half of YouTube consumption is on the television, then the BBC needs to be there. Indeed, the BBC recognises that now, I think. Four or five years ago it had a sort of “fortress iPlayer” strategy. Given the way the market has moved, I think they have recognised that that is not enough, because it is not necessarily the case that everybody is going to come to you; you are going to need to go to where they want to be as well. The BBC has recognised that and started embracing YouTube, in particular, but I suspect there are other platforms that it is going to need to embrace as well.
The great advantage the BBC have, which is much more difficult for us, is that they do not need to be paid to do that. They do not need to make advertising revenue. They do not have a problem of the amount of money they have to give away to YouTube, which is a major problem for us, because they are not a commercial player. They can put their content wherever the audience is and not have to worry about whether they are going to get paid for it. In fact, the opposite is true: the more they spread their content around, the more likely it is that people are going to accept that the licence fee is providing something for them, because the BBC is providing that content wherever they want to consume it.
Q44 Ann Davies: But they have to pay to go on to YouTube, I would imagine. YouTube are not going to open the door without being paid for it, are they?
Magnus Brooke: I don’t think the BBC have to pay YouTube. It is an open platform. I can go and load a video up on YouTube and it will not cost me anything. You would need to ask the BBC, but I do not think the BBC is paying YouTube. The BBC is not getting any advertising revenue from YouTube and should not be taking any advertising. There should not be adverts on BBC content on YouTube because it is being paid for by the licence fee. That is really important, because that is about licence fee payers seeing that they can get BBC content for free without having to watch adverts.
Chair: Do you want to follow up, Ann?
Ann Davies: No, that is fine. I will check my facts.
Q45 Andrew Ranger: It is nice to see you both again. I want to develop the line of discussion we were just having about changing audience habits and the streaming platforms, which obviously affect you as a broadcaster that relies on advertising, or is funded through advertising. Can you describe what the effect has been?
Magnus Brooke: The effect has been profound. If you look at the competition for viewing and the competition for advertising, we face a competitor set now that is unrecognisable from 10 years ago. Our biggest competitors now are still Channel 4, Sky and so on, but above all, the SVODs. Even five years ago, who would have thought that some of our biggest competitors would be subscription VOD services such as Netflix, Disney and HBO, all of which are now hybrid pay-and-free advertising finance businesses. Suddenly, you have got a whole new competitor set with a mass audience competing both for viewing and for advertising.
Again, YouTube is a formidable competitor which is integrated into the whole Google ecosystem. Its data is astonishing because anybody who uses any Google product is effectively feeding the machine and that includes YouTube. It is a formidable advertising competitor, and its reach is now greater than ITV. It is greater on some measures than the BBC and it is growing very fast. It is a mass-reach platform with an incredibly data-rich advertising offer, and which is amortising its costs across the whole world. We are investing in advertising technology in ITVX for one market, for one UK country, which is a medium-sized country. All our competitors are now amortising their costs more or less across the whole world.
That is a really tough place to be and if you look at our revenues, we have lost about £500 million of total advertising revenue in real terms since 2021. Our margins have halved. We have had to invest a huge amount in ITVX and in advertising technology. It is really tough. To be honest, it is one of the reasons why, as the strategy director, one of the things we did two or three years ago was ask: if we take a five-or-more-year view, where are we going to be and where do we need to be? The conclusion was that we had to have a partner in this market. That was the main reason why we approached Comcast and proposed that we did a deal with Sky to combine our broadcasting and streaming businesses to try and create an entity with sufficient scale and heft in the UK and that was capable of sustaining our PSB obligations with a really strong economic base to do that. That is why we have done that deal.
Zoe Thomas: If I can just add, on a practical delivery level, as people on the ground trying to deliver the best content that we can all the time, that perpetual squeeze means that it becomes harder to do that. What has happened simultaneously is that there are more platforms to do that on. You are trying to tell stories in different ways on different platforms, and those platforms just increase in number while your need to be on those different platforms does not decrease—one does not go away just because another starts. You have a perpetually growing arena of places that you need to put your content, and you need to position that content slightly differently but with the same resource. On a practical level, that is the effect of all of that.
Q46 Andrew Ranger: Is the change that you are losing the volume of advertising that is coming to you because there is so much other choice that the people who want to advertise can go to? Or is it the value that advertisers feel that it has and that they want to pay less to advertise on your channels because they have got other places to go to as well? Or is it a mixture of both?
Magnus Brooke: It is largely choice. There are just so many other places that they can go. Those places are very attractive mass-reach products. The USP of TV used to be mass reach and there was nowhere else to go. The truth is you can get mass reach from a number of other players now and there are lots of other places to go. Even more than that, they will give you an even richer data offer than we can necessarily, given the limited amounts of data that we have. We have some data, but we do not have vast amounts. In fact, a lot of the data we have to buy in, whereas they have it innately within their ecosystem. It is quite a battle.
One thing I would say, and this is the only glass-half-full point I think I would make on this, is that it does force you to be more efficient. We are very efficient now. We have taken a lot of cost out. To the conversation we had earlier about three people going to an interview, we do have one person going to an interview now, and—as Zoe knows better than anyone—we have made the budgets for things such as regional news go further, because the truth is that we are now providing a digital news service alongside all of the linear broadcast TV that we traditionally did. If we were still sending three people to each story, we would not be doing that.
Q47 Andrew Ranger: That is quite interesting. Thinking of Sky, Now TV and Channel 4 more than ITV specifically, I have noticed that when watching a film, you now get quite a long gap where it says that the programme will continue shortly—I am guessing it is to do with the scheduling. That used to be filled with adverts. I suppose my question, really, is whether there are not enough people wanting to advertise, because you cannot fill those gaps.
Magnus Brooke: It is a good point. If you think about the number of hours of television now, you could probably watch every single drama ever released somewhere on television in Britain, and probably every single film, more or less. That is extraordinary. If you set off and said, “I’m going to watch every single piece of content currently available on a video service in the UK,” you would be dead, I think, before you finished.
Yes, there is a huge amount more supply, and yes, advertising has increased. It has expanded. The market has increased. TV’s share of that, by the way, has not increased; it has gone down. Yes, there is more demand—there is more advertising around now—but the supply of opportunities to advertise has also massively increased.
Q48 Chair: As an older person who likes to go back to “Inspector Morse”, “Lewis” and all those sorts of things—they are obviously not Welsh, but I am sure they would be if they could be—looking at the data side of things, could you just expand, for a non-techy person, on what you mean by data, how you are harvesting and all that sort of thing?
Magnus Brooke: The truth is that we don’t harvest all that much data from ITVX. We want the sign-up process to be as smooth as possible, so I think we get your e-mail address, your name and probably your address, to enable us to supply the right regional news and versions and so on. We are not collecting huge amounts of first-party data. We do then, for advertising purposes, sometimes match data that we buy in from Experian or whatever to try to match those data sources up. But the truth is that if you’re on YouTube, you are in the whole ecosystem of Google; they know your entire search history, your Google Map history, when you were interested in buying a new car, if there is a life event coming up or whatever it is, and they can use that data on YouTube to target their advertising. That is formidable competition if you are ITV, because we do not harvest that level of data.
One of the reasons why the Sky transaction is important is that, in the US, Comcast does have some quite sophisticated advertising technology. We are having to invest in that technology ourselves in the UK, for one country. What we really need is some more sophisticated advertising technology, the cost of which is amortised across a number of markets, particularly the US, because it is the biggest market. One of the attractions of this from our and Sky’s point of view is that that technology can be deployed in the UK, which saves us money, bluntly. We have a product called Planet V, which we have invested tens of millions of pounds in. It is an automated programmatic advertising platform. Agencies can buy directly from us, without necessarily even having to go through the sales team, but to do that in one country was a massive undertaking, with buying the intellectual property, the know-how and all the rest of it. Our competitors are all amortising that cost across the whole world—and spending billions, by the way; we are not spending billions on that at all.
That was just a microcosmic example of why something like Sky makes a difference, but there is also content. Sky loves content. It has a lot of sport, a lot of other UK content, and there is more that can be done in terms of enhancing our channel. I am due to speak to them about their specific plans, but it ultimately helps Wales: there is an ecosystem on ITV where you increase the number of people who watch the channel, and that will increase the number of people who then engage with what Zoe and the team are doing in Wales.
Q49 Chair: You talk about economies of scale and things for the big companies, but obviously, we are talking about Wales. I suppose the question is, what is your unique selling point?
Zoe Thomas: In Wales specifically?
Chair: In Wales.
Zoe Thomas: I think it goes back to what I said earlier. In being the only commercial broadcaster, we are that alternative voice; we do reach different audiences. Traditionally, we reach slightly socioeconomically lower audiences. We provide that different voice to people. In the election, I think you could see that the BBC, S4C and us were doing very similar things, but doing them in different ways and to different audiences.
The importance of that plurality, of those voices continuing, and of us being able to do that and being a significant player in that market should not be undervalued. We do different things: the purpose of the BBC is to do those things that perhaps commercial broadcasters cannot afford to do, but I think that we provide an important alternative voice, both in Wales and across the rest of the UK.
Q50 Chair: Thank you very much. As I said with the other witnesses, we are coming to the end of our session, so is there anything else that you feel we should know but we have not brought out in the questioning today? I will start with Magnus and then go on to Zoe for the final word.
Magnus Brooke: The only thing that I would say—just to reiterate what I have said already—is that the health of commercial PSB across the UK has a direct impact on what we can do in Wales. Wales is part of that overall ecology. Bluntly, there is a cross-subsidy between the money that we can make as a network service and the amount of money that we can put into Wales.
The single most important thing for us is getting the Sky deal away. Sky has committed to delivering all our PSB obligations for the entire length of the current licence. That it is really important. If you look at what has happened with STV in Scotland, for example, we are really clear that we would not want to go there. That is an example of how you have to have a sustainable economic model in order to deliver a national service of scale in Wales or Scotland.
Zoe Thomas: Obviously, as Magnus said, we are part of that ecosystem, so all of that is crucial for us. But, on a more national or local level, it is just about doing what we already do, which is amplifying our content and celebrating it to both your constituents and other parliamentarians, to make sure that people realise the value of what ITV Wales and the other PSBs bring to cultural life and the creative economy in Wales.
Chair: Thank you very much. That brings this session to an end. Zoe Thomas and Magnus Brooke, I want to thank both of you for attending today. I also need to pay special thanks to our interpreter, Nerys, who is in the box over there and has been very patient. Thank you very much to you all. I will now bring the session to a close.