Women and Equalities Committee
Oral evidence: Misogyny in music, HC 317
Tuesday 18 July 2023
Ordered by the House of Commons to be published on 18 July 2023.
Members present: Caroline Nokes (Chair); Jackie Doyle-Price; Ms Anum Qaisar; Bell Ribeiro-Addy.
Questions 284 to 343
Witnesses
I: Rt Hon Sir John Whittingdale MP, Minister of State for Media, Tourism and Creative Industries, Department for Culture, Media and Sport; Victoria MacCallum, Deputy Director, Creative Industries and Media Bill, Department for Culture, Media and Sport
Written evidence from witnesses
Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport [MiM0039]
Witnesses: Sir John Whittingdale and Victoria MacCallum.
Chair: Good morning and welcome to this morning’s meeting of the Women and Equalities Select Committee and our inquiry into misogyny in music. I thank our witnesses, Sir John Whittingdale and Victoria MacCallum, for joining us. As usual, Committee members will ask you questions in turn.
Q284 Ms Qaisar: Good morning and thank you for joining us today. Minister, a few years ago Rebecca Ferguson raised concerns about discrimination and misogyny in music. In 2021, the then Culture Secretary met with her. Afterwards, he said, “Ministers will work with Rebecca and industry figures to take this discussion forward”. What have Ministers done since that meeting?
Sir John Whittingdale: I was a Minister in the Department at that time, although I think it was another member of your Committee, Caroline Dinenage, who was actually looking after creative industries at the particular moment. I remember the meeting that took place with Rebecca Ferguson. Ministers were quite concerned to hear of her experience and clearly recognised that the industry needed to do more.
Following that, there was the establishment of a working group, looking particularly at bullying, harassment and discrimination, which was headed by Creative UK. That working group is still in existence. Out of that came the Creative Industries Independent Standards Authority, which is an industry body, but one that that the Government very strongly support, to look at ways in which we can make more assistance available to women, particularly, but not exclusively women, working in the industry who suffer from BHD. We are delighted that the CIISA is now at the point where it has been agreed by the industry and is about to launch.
Q285 Ms Qaisar: We have heard how 99% of women in the music industry experience bullying and 80% of those who have experienced bullying and harassment do not report it. Why do you think that is?
Sir John Whittingdale: There must be a variety of reasons, and I suspect that it is not a problem exclusive to the music industry. Clearly, the music industry has difficulties, as has been shown by surveys that have taken place. You refer to some more general ones.
You are dealing with an industry, like a number of the creative industries, where there are quite a lot of powerful men who have exploited and abused their position. You are dealing with quite young and inexperienced women who are also ambitious and somehow brainwashed into believing that they have to accept this as part of their career path. There are all these problems that, as I say, are not exclusive to the music industry but certainly have featured in the music industry.
Q286 Ms Qaisar: What can the Government do to tackle this?
Sir John Whittingdale: The industry has shown a very strong commitment. I know that, during the course of the inquiry, you have heard from a number of different representatives of the music industry. There is a determination to do more to stop it and to provide support. It is for industry to lead on. There is existing legislation in place, which makes it illegal. Nevertheless, the industry needs to do more. They have all agreed to participate in the new body. A number of the big companies have their own schemes in place, as you will have heard in the evidence that you have already taken. There is a commitment to provide more help, and I hope very much that that will prove effective.
Q287 Ms Qaisar: Minister, with all due respect, you have not actually said anything that the Government can do to help legislate. It sounds like you are putting more responsibility on the industry. Yes, it does have a responsibility towards it, but I am asking quite specifically what measures the Government can put in place to ensure that women who experience bullying and harassment in the music industry feel that they are able to raise their concerns and feel safe in the workplace. Otherwise, it is just going to be run by men.
Sir John Whittingdale: The Government have put legislation in place, and that legislation is being strengthened at the moment. There is a Private Member’s Bill, as you are aware, going through Parliament, which the Government strongly support, the Worker Protection (Amendment of Equality Act 2010) Bill.
It is, in the main, going to be the responsibility of the industry. The Government have provided support to the industry in creating these additional avenues for people suffering from BHD to seek help and pursue. As I say, it is for the industry to step up and I think that they are doing that.
Q288 Ms Qaisar: What would you like to see the industry do?
Sir John Whittingdale: I hope very much that the measures that have already been put into effect will work. The establishment of a new body is a definite step forward. It flows directly on from the Government’s original intervention following the revelations, if you like, from Rebecca Ferguson and the establishment.
The Government work very closely across the creative industries. Creative UK has taken a lead in this, looking at these problems right across all the creative industries. As we know, there have been similar challenges in the film industry, fashion, art and theatre. This is a widespread problem. The music industry has perhaps suffered more, but equally has been more determined and is acting to tackle it.
Q289 Ms Qaisar: When you look at the stats, for example, 90% of music production staff are male. What effect do you think that this has on the music industry and the workplace culture?
Sir John Whittingdale: Gender equality is a separate but not wholly unrelated issue. You are correct. A lot has been done there. The latest figure across the industry shows that we are approaching parity, not completely but 46%.
There is a particular part of the industry that you identify. I have friends and relatives working in the industry who I talk to a lot about the composition in the industry. You are right that, particularly in the production sphere, in terms of things like sound recordists and production managers, there is further to go and work to be done to achieve greater female representation, but that probably starts off in terms of things like training courses, degree courses and vocational education. Again, this is not a problem that is exclusive to the music industry.
Q290 Ms Qaisar: We know that childcare responsibilities disproportionately fall upon women, regardless of what sector you are in. We have also been told that a lack of shared parental leave means that parents who are self‑employed in the industry often have to leave. It is usually women. Is that a situation that you recognise?
Sir John Whittingdale: I suppose it is a situation I particularly recognise, since I would not be sitting in front of you if the Minister holding the position were not on maternity leave, so it applies right across all occupations. The Government are keen to encourage parental leave for both parents. We have brought in provisions of that kind. You are right: women bear the bigger proportion of the work. They have entitlements and the Government have sought to ensure that those who take advantage of those entitlements do not suffer for having done so.
Q291 Ms Qaisar: Do the Government plan to extend eligibility for shared parental leave for freelancers?
Sir John Whittingdale: Freelancers have particular problems and challenges. You are right that the music industry has a very high proportion of freelancers. In terms of parental leave entitlements, you will appreciate that, as a DCMS Minister, it is not really within my portfolio and I would not like to make any commitments on behalf of my colleagues in other Government Departments. It is an issue affecting all industries, but it is one where the music industry particularly has a large proportion of freelance workers.
Q292 Ms Qaisar: Finally, what steps can the Government take to improve support for mothers in the music industry?
Sir John Whittingdale: You have already touched on one of the main issues. We are talking particularly around working benefits. We are talking about assistance through the social security system, et cetera. I am not sure that the Government, in terms of the job I hold, have much ability to influence that. It is not an issue specifically for the music industry.
Q293 Ms Qaisar: Victoria, I appreciate that I have just been asking the Minister questions. Is there anything that you would like to add?
Victoria MacCallum: The issue of bullying and harassment is something that we take really seriously as a Government and industry are doing a huge amount to tackle that. The Musicians’ Union has a safe spaces initiative to encourage reporting of incidents. We keep across the whole range of things that the industry does. We keep a very close watching brief because it is something where, to achieve the growth in the creative industries that we want to see, we need a skilled, flexible and motivated workforce. Sexism and misogyny has no place in that.
Q294 Chair: Victoria, you keep a close watching brief. You mentioned the Musicians’ Union providing safe spaces and encouraging reporting. It is not working, is it?
Victoria MacCallum: It is something that we talked to the Musicians’ Union about. I know that you are speaking to them later on today. We encourage them to track the progress of it. If they feel that there are areas of the workforce who do not feel comfortable reporting, they know the workforce better than we in Government do. We are very much listening to their initiatives and encouraging them to take more and adapt if necessary.
Q295 Chair: John, do you think that women are safe at music festivals?
Sir John Whittingdale: Yes, but obviously one cannot give that assurance for 100%. I have a young daughter who is slightly less young now, but still a relatively young person, who goes to music festivals. I have many friends who do. There is a risk at music festivals.
I was talking to one friend who is 19 and has been to many music festivals. She said to me, “Of course I would never go to one alone”. You might say that that applies not just to festivals; it applies to many public events that young girls go to where there may be a risk attached. We have done quite a lot, or at least the industry has done quite a lot, in terms of things such as provision of safe spaces at music festivals and other live events. There will always be an element of risk.
Festival organisers have been generally quite good in ensuring that the staff there are trained. They have to be trained in basic health and safety, but a number now have also tried to ensure that they are aware of the need to offer protection for people suffering from sexual abuse or harassment or whatever. I am sure that there is more that can be done. We are not at a perfect situation, but it is recognised that we need to try to ensure that young girls, particularly, are safe when they attend festivals.
Q296 Chair: We have heard from performers, support staff, technicians and audience members as part of this inquiry, who have all been giving the same message: that they do not feel safe; there is not adequate training; and there is not adequate support. At what point should the Government step in and perhaps tie liquor licences, for example, to there being an accredited, accepted level of safety and security training at venues and festivals?
Sir John Whittingdale: The licensing requirements include the personal licence, where there is a set of requirements that individuals need to meet. That is certainly something that I would be interested in looking at if this Committee made a recommendation to strengthen that. It is not really in our gift particularly. It may be a Home Office matter more than ours, but I can certainly see a case for it. I will be interested to see whether that is one of the recommendations this Committee puts forward.
Q297 Chair: Have you looked at the changes that have taken place in Ireland, for example, where liquor licences are now tied to how proactive venues are being in dealing with sexual violence?
Sir John Whittingdale: I would have to admit that I have not.
Q298 Chair: We may well make a recommendation suggesting that you should. The French have also looked at initiatives where funding for venues is tied to better training around sexual violence. Do you think that that could be perhaps something that the Arts Council should look at?
Sir John Whittingdale: Yes, potentially. The Arts Council plays an important part in the funding of live music venues, festivals and other artistic enterprises. That is certainly something that you may wish to pursue with the Arts Council, but I would be happy to talk to it about whether it takes account of that in its grant allocation.
Q299 Chair: It is an interesting question as to whether it does. Your opening answer to me was that you thought that women were safe at music festivals. Perhaps the Arts Council should run that algorithm as to how many complaints there are of sexual assault at music festivals that are Arts Council funded.
Sir John Whittingdale: Yes, indeed. Obviously, it is not just a matter for festivals that are Arts Council funded. I return to your original question. I hope and believe that people attending festivals generally are safe. Indeed, I would not have let my children attend them if I thought that they were not. That is not to say that I am not aware of the risk that exists at festivals but also at any public venue. There is probably an equal risk at clubs, at bars and in hospitality.
Q300 Chair: Can I take you back to the Private Member’s Bill? In one of your first answers, you said that the Government strongly support the Private Member’s Bill that I think is currently in the Lords; I might be wrong about that. Do they? How robust is the Government’s support for that Bill?
Sir John Whittingdale: It has been through the Commons already and the Government made plain that they supported it and welcomed its passage through the Commons. Obviously it will come back to the Commons once it has completed its consideration in the House of Lords.
Q301 Chair: What are your thoughts on the amendments that have been put on it in the Lords?
Sir John Whittingdale: They were only passed about three or four days ago. It is not a Bill that comes under the DCMS, so it will be for my colleagues elsewhere in Government to consider how they respond. I have no doubt that the Lords has good reason for passing the amendments that it has. Whether the Government agree and accept those is still to be determined.
Q302 Chair: The Government committed to legislating against third-party harassment in the workplace. That was two years ago. Amendments to the Worker Protection (Amendment of Equality Act 2010) Bill suggest that that commitment has now been abandoned. Fundamentally, the amendments are about removing that third-party element. We know that, in the music industry, sometimes sexual violence and harassment will indeed be perpetrated by third parties. Is there any explanation you can give as to why those amendments, which have been tabled by Conservative peers, would enable that Bill to move forward, as you have put it, with strong Government support?
Sir John Whittingdale: As I say, it was only a few days ago and it is not within my responsibilities, so I have not studied the debate that took place in the House of Lords. It passed with those provisions in it through the House of Commons and with Government support, but the Lords has chosen to amend it. As we have seen in the last 48 hours, it happens that the Lords amends Bills and the Commons then decides to reject those amendments. I cannot tell you what the attitude of the Government will be when the Bill returns before the House here.
Q303 Chair: You indicated earlier, and were right to, that it is not just music; it is the film industry, the fashion industry and theatre. They all have issues with sexual harassment, unwanted sexual touching and abuse in the creative sector. Do you feel that the Government are doing enough to protect women in the wider sector?
Sir John Whittingdale: We have been aware that it is an issue for a very long time. The real shocking revelations started with the #MeToo movement and Harvey Weinstein in terms of Hollywood and the film industry.
It clearly exists right across the board of creative industries, which is why the initiative of the establishment of the working group was done by Creative UK, which represents all the creative industries. The new body, the independent standards authority, again is a creative industries-wide body. Each industry will have its own specific challenges. The general issue about safety and protection of not just women but vulnerable people in those industries is one applying across to all the creative industries.
Q304 Bell Ribeiro-Addy: Thank you to both of you. A Musicians’ Union survey found that 61% of their members believed freelancers to be at greater risk of being sexually harassed. Your Department has told us in the past that many freelance musicians are exempt from legal protections from sexual harassment at work because of their employment status. Is that a concern to you?
Sir John Whittingdale: The basic protections that exist certainly apply to freelancers as much as they do to any other employee. Part of the difficulty for freelancers is that they do not have the support that, for instance, the employees of a major record label would have. Big organisations have HR departments. They have protection policies in place. They will have support, counselling and all the support apparatus that they are able to bring to bear. If you are a freelancer, you do not have those things. That obviously makes it harder for them.
That is something that the new body can help to address, particularly because it is there to provide the support for people who do not have it through the company they work for. I know that the record labels, to some extent, while being very supportive of CIISA, feel that a lot of the support is already available to their own employees, because they provide it in their companies. This will be quite a big help, I hope, to freelancers, who do not have it elsewhere.
Q305 Bell Ribeiro-Addy: We have had numerous submissions that recommend that the Government should modify and broaden the Equality Act 2010 to better protect the music industry workforce, specifically by including self-employed and freelance creative workers, so that they are entitled to the same protection as others. Have you had any discussions with the Minister for Women and Equalities on amending the Act to give freelancers these legal protections?
Sir John Whittingdale: My understanding is that the Government do not have any current plans to amend the Act itself. I hope that some of the measures that we have discussed this morning will go a long way towards providing that support for people in that position. That is something that, when this Committee makes a recommendation, we would look at seriously.
Q306 Bell Ribeiro-Addy: If the Government do not plan to amend the Equality Act, other than this new body, how else do the Government plan to provide such protections for freelance workers? Do the Government remain comfortable that such a large proportion of women working in the sector have no protection under the law?
Sir John Whittingdale: It is not a question of them not having protection under the law. The basic requirements under the Equality Act apply.
Q307 Bell Ribeiro-Addy: Only the basic ones apply.
Sir John Whittingdale: Yes, those are universal rights that all employees benefit from.
Q308 Bell Ribeiro-Addy: Is that good enough, given what has been said about what is happening to women in the industry?
Sir John Whittingdale: We are, as we have just discussed, supporting the measures to strengthen the Act that are currently going through Parliament. There are no further plans to strengthen the Act, but that is something that we are happy to keep under review.
Q309 Bell Ribeiro-Addy: We also had a number of witnesses, including an employment solicitor, UK Music and the Musicians’ Union, that have told us that three months is too short a limit to bring Equality Act-based cases to an employment tribunal. Do you support the Government increasing the limit to six months?
Sir John Whittingdale: I do not think at the moment we are of a mind that that is desirable. I am hesitant to stray into what are clearly the responsibilities of other Government Departments. You would need to put it directly to my colleagues in DBT.
Q310 Bell Ribeiro-Addy: I understand, but we ask because of the fact that the Government have said that they are listening to people. I know that Victoria’s response to the Chair was talking about how you are listening to bodies such as the Musicians’ Union and UK Music. These are things that they have put forward. I need to understand what plans the Government might have to move this forward and not necessarily just that you plan to have it under review.
Sir John Whittingdale: I would completely echo that of course we will listen to the Musicians’ Union. As I say, at the moment we are not intending to strengthen the Act beyond the measures already under consideration in Parliament. That is something that they will look at if strong arguments are made. I am not saying that there is no way that it could happen. You will need to make that recommendation to DBT.
Q311 Bell Ribeiro-Addy: The Government had said that they would consider the merits of increasing the time limit up to two years. Do you have any idea about why it might be taking so long to implement this change?
Sir John Whittingdale: No, but, from the experience I have had to date, the wheels of Government turn annoyingly slowly sometimes. I suspect that it is just the normal process.
Q312 Bell Ribeiro-Addy: Victoria, do you have any insight as to why it might be taking so long?
Victoria MacCallum: I am afraid that I do not, no more than the Minister said.
On the freelance issue, we are really alive to the challenges that freelancers face. On a personal level, I am married to a freelancer and there are benefits, but there are also areas that can be challenging. We are very much engaged with the sector, as I said, to make sure that we understand issues that are particularly alive for freelancers. We look forward to hearing your recommendations in this space.
Q313 Bell Ribeiro-Addy: Are you worried at all, Minister and Victoria, about whether there is a risk that people are going to miss out on justice and perpetrators will remain unpunished if we do not make certain changes in the law, such as extending the time limit and other areas of reform, given what we have heard about what women are experiencing?
Sir John Whittingdale: I would always be worried about the prospect that people who commit offences go unpunished and unrecognised. I do not think necessarily that the existing measures allow that to happen. It is something that we are happy to continue to look at, but there are very clear laws in place at the moment.
Q314 Bell Ribeiro-Addy: You think that they are good enough at the moment.
Sir John Whittingdale: At the moment, our view is that they are working, but we are always open to listen to people who make a case for strengthening them.
Q315 Jackie Doyle-Price: I want to ask about the Creative Industries Independent Standards Authority, otherwise known as CIISA. CIISA tells us that the DCMS is committed to and supports its development. Can you tell us, Minister, what you understand to be the function of CIISA and what expectations you have of it?
Sir John Whittingdale: It is an industry-led body. It is one that has already signed up most of the representative bodies from right across the creative industries. It is only just coming into being. It is very much along the lines that we have wanted to see brought forward by the industry. We have made it clear that we very much welcome its establishment.
It is only just at the point of being launched, so the details of how it will operate are not yet published. I hope that it will provide support, help and advice for anybody across the creative industries who suffers from, particularly, harassment, discrimination, et cetera. As I was saying earlier, it will be especially valuable for people working in the industry who do not have that level of support from their employer, so particularly freelancers but also employees of small music companies, record labels, et cetera, where the HR facilities, the legal support and the rest are not there because the company is unable to provide those.
Q316 Jackie Doyle-Price: It is a welcome step forward, but I detect from your comments that you are not raising expectations. Is it fair to say that the jury is out?
Sir John Whittingdale: The jury has given a cheer for what has been achieved, but the jury is also keen to see the detail of exactly what is proposed.
Victoria MacCallum: People in my team have been engaging with CIISA as it has been developing its proposals. We would describe ourselves as a critical friend. We will follow it with great interest as it comes into life.
Q317 Jackie Doyle-Price: Given where we are starting from, clearly it is a positive step, but we remain to see.
Following on from what you have just said, Victoria, what advice have you given with regard to the extent to which it needs more support than it has perhaps been pledged? Do you see any issues with regard to its financing? To what extent do you see this as a secure organisation, rather than a fig leaf, which critics might describe it as?
Victoria MacCallum: As the Minister said, it is very much industry-led. We want them to own it and bring supporters on board, develop their financing structure, avenues, programmes and channels. We want them to develop that further. It feels to me that it is probably a bit too early for us to be definitive on some of those questions, I am afraid.
Q318 Jackie Doyle-Price: We are taking this forward in the spirit of, effectively, self-regulation. To what extent have you made an assessment as to just how the industry bodies that will be funding this are really grappling with the challenges that are set out by the organisation? Is it just a PR exercise?
Sir John Whittingdale: Victoria has been involved in the discussions with them. I do not think that it is. I would be extremely worried if that was how they perceived it. From my own conversations, they are very strongly committed to supporting it. It has been led by Creative UK, but the breadth of support it has achieved across the creative industries is impressive. Victoria, you have worked on it day to day.
Victoria MacCallum: I would echo that. It has some impressive people signed up to it. I know that the people working on it are really committed to taking this seriously and tackling it. As they continue to put flesh on the bones, we will follow it with interest.
Q319 Jackie Doyle-Price: The other point is that, because it is industry-led and effectively a self-policing, self-regulatory body, in practice, what tools will it have at its disposal to tackle bad behaviour? Naming and shaming can be a very powerful one, but to what extent is that really going to drive behaviour? Has that come out in your discussions with them?
Victoria MacCallum: I am sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I would really want to see from them what their detailed plans are for tackling some of the issues that they expect will be raised with them. I would not want to comment on what their processes may be, because I believe that they are still working through some of that detail before they become operational.
Sir John Whittingdale: In the areas that I have responsibility, self‑regulation is quite a well-established practice. The advertising industry and the press self-regulate. I can see distinct advantages in having a self‑regulatory system, rather than a rather inflexible statutory-based one, but it is something where we see how it works. This is a new body.
Q320 Jackie Doyle-Price: I tend to agree with you. In many ways, self-regulation can be more powerful. Being judged by your peers can be a more satisfactory discipline than perhaps by a third party. Nevertheless, we really need to see how this pans out. Other self-regulatory organisations have had other powers. Sunlight is always the best way of showing this. Ultimately, are we really going to effect real cultural change? As you have explained earlier in this session, we are talking about quite a toxic culture. Is it always going to be like that? Are we placing too much hope in an organisation of this nature?
Sir John Whittingdale: My own view would be that it is right that the creative industries, and the music industry particularly, put in place as much protection as possible. The culture you are talking about is one that afflicts the whole of society and almost every industry.
To give you my own example, which is a million miles away from the industry we are talking about, I wake up this morning, turn on the news on the “Today” programme and hear a report about what has been going on in McDonald’s. That too is deeply disturbing. These are very deep-rooted societal problems that I have no doubt this Committee has spent a lot more time thinking about than I have. You have to change a lot more than just through one industry-led body.
Q321 Jackie Doyle-Price: That leads me on to the conclusion I have always felt about these things. The only way you tackle unhealthy behaviours is through leadership and saying, “This just is not acceptable”. I almost think that there could be much more advantage in some big names in the industry actually doing that and giving that kind of challenge. Looking elsewhere where we can share that leadership, to what extent do you think the need for CIISA has come about because of the failure of other avenues of leadership, in particular the EHRC, whose job it is to raise standards here?
Sir John Whittingdale: If we go back to the discussion we had right at the beginning of this session, it came about not entirely because of courage of one young female performer coming forward, but she played a substantial part in that she had a conversation with the Secretary of State, which led to the recognition that the industry had a problem that it had to do more about.
It takes courageous behaviour of those who are victims and some examples. I am not thinking of the music industry particularly. There are other industries where very senior, powerful people have been forced to resign when it has become apparent that their behaviour, particularly in the area of sexual harassment of younger female employees, is clearly utterly unacceptable.
Q322 Chair: John, just now you referred to deep-rooted societal problems and said that we have to change a lot more than just the music industry. I suspect that you are absolutely right on that. Where do you think that that change should start?
Sir John Whittingdale: Goodness. It should start in the way in which people are taught to behave towards each other. It should start in schools with relationship advice and education. The media, which is an incredibly powerful instrument in influencing attitude, has a part to play.
We have not yet touched on it, but I know that part of this inquiry has been looking at the influence of lyrics in music. Certainly some of those convey attitudes. I do not know whether you draw a causal link directly towards the inappropriate behaviour towards women, but clearly they represent attitudes that are unacceptable. There are a whole host of different factors that contribute to it. We need to look at all of those. To some extent, that is the job that you undertake, which is a very important one.
Q323 Chair: What role do you see other Government Departments, specifically yours, having in the Government’s current review into RSHE? You said yourself that this comes down to how people are taught to behave to each other.
Sir John Whittingdale: That is a matter for my colleagues in the Department for Education in the main. Victoria, are we particularly feeding into that consideration?
Victoria MacCallum: I believe that we are engaging with them on official level, but I would have to check, I am afraid.
Q324 Chair: That is not quite what the written answer to a question you provided me with on 14 July says, where the Department for Culture, Media and Sport appears to have zero interest in the DfE’s RSHE review.
Sir John Whittingdale: I would be surprised if my answer said that we have zero interest.
Q325 Chair: It does not quite say that. It gives me exactly the same response that every other Government Department has, citing what the review is about but making no indication whatsoever that DCMS is going to feed in any views. You are a sector that has problems in the music industry, theatre, film and fashion. You yourself have said, as the Minister, that this comes down to how people are taught to behave towards each other. Should you play more of an active role in that review?
Sir John Whittingdale: As we said, this is not a problem specific to the creative industries. It goes right across society. I have no doubt that Ministers in the Department for Education and Parliament will take a very active role. I know that some of my colleagues—everybody’s colleagues in the room—have taken a very active interest specifically in the nature of education in sex and relationships. That is a very live debate. I do not know that the Department is officially participating in specific discussions.
Q326 Chair: You are the Minister in a Department that is responsible for a bunch of sectors where there is a specific problem, where we will all agree that there is a culture of misogyny and women being harassed and abused. Here you have a golden opportunity. Your colleagues in the DfE are conducting a review into RSHE, addressing specifically how people are taught to behave towards each other, and you have no interest. You want to leave that to the DfE.
Sir John Whittingdale: The role of the Department is to try to support the industries for which we are responsible in addressing the issues that are specific to them.
Q327 Chair: There is a specific issue with the harassment of women working in the music industry. Are we agreed on that?
Sir John Whittingdale: No, because it is not specific to the music industry. It is an issue affecting the music industry. The music industry may have particular aspects. For instance, we talked about the high proportion of freelancers, which perhaps creates greater challenges. Harassment of young female employees is taking place in a wide cross‑section of industries and has to be addressed in each individual sector as well as the general approach in things such as education.
Q328 Chair: Do you think that you should take more of an active interest in what is going on in RSHE, given that there is a problem in the cultural sector wider than just the music industry?
Sir John Whittingdale: I have absolutely no doubt that, out of the work that is taking place in the BHD working group covering the creative industries, if there are aspects where it is felt that it would be valuable that the working group looking at RSHE were informed about, we would feed into it. I am sure that that would apply to the Department for Transport if it discovered—
Q329 Chair: I have written to them all—fret not, they have all had the written question. I am trying to establish which other Government Departments recognise that there is a problem with the harassment of women on the transport network; that there is a problem with the harassment of women working in the armed services; or that there is a problem with the harassment of women working in the NHS. They have all had the question. What I am not establishing is whether Government Departments are working alongside the DfE to say, “This is a societal problem. This is a cultural problem that we all have”, or whether this is just an education problem.
Sir John Whittingdale: I am speaking for myself and my own views. I would certainly accept that this is a societal problem that affects industries and sectors right across the board. That is not to say that I think that the whole of Government and every Department needs to be represented on the Department for Education’s working group. If there are particular lessons or recommendations that we feel would be of value to that working group, which we draw from our experience of working with the creative industries, obviously I would want to feed that in.
Q330 Chair: Are non-disclosure agreements part of the societal problem?
Sir John Whittingdale: A lot of work has been done on non‑disclosure agreements. The law has already made clear that they cannot be used to stop people reporting illegal activity. There are protections for whistleblowers within the law governing NDAs.
Q331 Chair: It was a brave whistleblower who broke an NDA to expose Harvey Weinstein. Do you think that it should take that level of bravery, or should there be better mechanisms for people to be able to speak out in confidence?
Sir John Whittingdale: We are straying a long way from music and misogyny. I quite accept that it will apply. It will apply in music.
Q332 Chair: I do not think that we are straying anywhere at all. We can provide you with examples of women working in the music industry who are subject to NDAs specifically to silence them.
Sir John Whittingdale: Yes, but again this is not a problem exclusive to the music industry, as you rightly point out.
Q333 Chair: Just because it is not exclusive to the music industry, does that mean that it is not a problem?
Sir John Whittingdale: No, but it means that it is an issue that needs to be considered across the whole operation of NDAs, which is not a matter for my Department. If we encounter cases where NDAs have been abused to try to cover up unacceptable practices, we would feed that into the Department responsible for looking at NDAs.
Q334 Chair: The Government has recently passed a Bill banning NDAs in cases of sexual harassment in higher education. Would you support similar legislation being brought forward for this sector?
Sir John Whittingdale: That is something I would need to talk to the Government Department responsible for NDAs about. Your general principle—that NDAs should not be used to cover up illegal or unacceptable activity—is one I am not going to dispute. Clearly they should not.
Q335 Chair: You are not going to take ownership of whether there should be legislation banning NDAs in the creative industries when we know that there is a specific problem in film and music with them being used to silence women.
Sir John Whittingdale: If that is the case, and obviously there have been cases of that occurring in those industries—
Chair: Okay, so it is the case.
Sir John Whittingdale: That is something that we would certainly wish to draw to the attention of the Government Department responsible for NDAs, but that is not us.
Q336 Chair: Some of the NDAs are pretty well documented, although the women in question obviously cannot speak of the specifics. Have you drawn it to the attention of any other Government Department?
Sir John Whittingdale: I am not aware of that.
Victoria MacCallum: It is not a conversation that I am aware we have had in our Department, no.
Q337 Chair: There have been quite active conversations around the education sector, where we know that there is a problem with misogyny, sexual abuse and harassment. We know that there is a problem in this sector as well, but you have not actually had any conversations.
Victoria MacCallum: Do you mean with the Government Department responsible for NDAs?
Q338 Chair: Do we know what the Government Department responsible for NDAs is?
Victoria MacCallum: It is the Government Equalities Office, I believe, or DBT.
Q339 Chair: How much contact have you had with the GEO?
Victoria MacCallum: We have had a fair amount in the last couple of months. In the run-up to this session, we have engaged with them a fair amount.
Q340 Chair: Do you routinely engage with them when you are not in the run-up to a session such as this?
Victoria MacCallum: As a full caveat, I am covering this job temporarily.
Q341 Chair: We are all on cover, are we?
Sir John Whittingdale: We are.
Q342 Chair: There is no routine engagement with the Government Equalities Office on the issue of NDAs.
Sir John Whittingdale: I am very happy to talk to my colleague in the Department who also has Government responsibility in this area. I have no doubt that all Government Departments will be feeding in.
Q343 Chair: Yours has not.
Sir John Whittingdale: As far as I know, we have not had direct conversations. If we conclude that there are lessons from the working group that has been established that are relevant to a wider consideration, of course I would want us to feed that in and I would try to make sure it happened.
Chair: Thank you for your attendance this morning.