European Scrutiny Committee
Oral evidence: Negotiations with the European Union in respect of Gibraltar, HC 124
Wednesday 5 July 2023
Ordered by the House of Commons to be published on 5 July 2023.
Watch the meeting
Members present: Sir William Cash (Chair); Richard Drax; Mr David Jones; Craig Mackinlay; Gavin Robinson; Greg Smith.
Questions 91-145
Witnesses
I: Hon. Fabian R Picardo KC, Chief Minister of Gibraltar.
Witnesses: Hon. Fabian R Picardo KC.
Q91 Chair: Chief Minister, good afternoon, and thank you for appearing to give evidence today yet again. On behalf of the Committee, welcome back to the House of Commons. We haven’t seen you since we travelled to the Rock this time last year—on this exact day, by all accounts—when you very kindly hosted us. That was very enjoyable, thank you. We learned a lot about UK-EU negotiations on a trade and border deal for Gibraltar, and the unique issues that prevail on the Rock, from the importance of a fluid border for the people and businesses of Gibraltar and Spain to the status of the airport.
This afternoon, we are going to consider what has been achieved after 13 rounds and 20 months of negotiations. We will consider your achievements and those of the UK Government over this period. We will then turn to consider the border more generally and the airport, then the issues faced at the border by blue ID card holders, and the impact that the absence of a deal is having on businesses. Then we will consider the possibility of a non-negotiated outcome and what that would mean for Gibraltar, and if a deal is reached, how you would handle its domestic approval. Before we start, Chief Minister, would you be so kind as to introduce yourself?
Fabian Picardo: Thank you so much. My name is Fabian Picardo, and I am the Chief Minister of Gibraltar.
Q92 Chair: Thank you very much. The first question is as follows. The 13th round of UK-EU negotiations on the trade and border deal for the Rock took place at the end of April. What have we achieved after 13 rounds and 20 months of negotiations? A distinction has been drawn in these negotiations between political and technical issues. What is there left to resolve? Are we left with some sticky political issues, or are we still looking at the finer details? How long can the temporary measures that have covered the border and other issues since the start of 2021 hold?
Fabian Picardo: Thank you very much. That’s a hell of a starter for 10, if I may say so.
Chair: That’s what we are here for.
Fabian Picardo: I will reflect for a moment on the nature of the question, because it is asking me to look back—it is very useful that we should—at the period of this negotiation, which is not perhaps as long as it might feel. We are talking about a period of about 21 months, starting in October 2021. Since then, we have made considerable progress.
Let me just remind you that we started with a European Union mandate and a United Kingdom-Gibraltar mandate. Both the United Kingdom and the European Union have, if I may say so, deployed magnificent resources across Whitehall and Brussels to enable this negotiation to progress. We are talking about many very different Departments that have had to become involved in the context of what we must of course accept is a small part of the territory of Europe, with a small but of course hugely important population—at least to me, and to you, other members of this Committee and the House of Commons.
The work that has been done has enabled us to identify that there are landing points where the European Commission, the United Kingdom and Gibraltar can find a way of bringing Gibraltar within the operation of the Schengen space in matters of immigration, and within the operation of the ability to move goods freely between Gibraltar and the European Union. Our key objective was to create frontier fluidity. To do so, we went through the panoply of issues related to that to find whether it might be possible to have sufficient acceptance of parts of the acquis by Gibraltar and the United Kingdom.
That would not have been possible without the commitment of resources from the United Kingdom Government and the European Commission, and without the work of each of the officials deployed in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office and all the Departments of Whitehall that have been involved. In Brussels, we have been faced with a negotiating team that has been tough but has been working with us to try to find solutions. Our negotiating team is no walkover either.
Each of us defended our respective positions and found ways forward—and we have found ways forward. I dare say that I was quoted as saying at one stage that I thought we were within kissing distance of a treaty. I think that we are still that close, but with more political sticking points, I would say, than technical sticking points. I do not want to get into the detail of those political sticking points, but some of them have been referred to in the press in recent days, because, of course, as we get towards the end, they become less and they become more prominent.
Those political issues might still seem intractable. I believe that, with imagination, we can deal with them in a way that delivers a deal. But that imagination should not for one moment lead anyone to imagine that Gibraltar and the United Kingdom are going to be anything other than entirely committed to not ceding one iota of our sovereignty in respect of the whole of Gibraltar or any part of its territory.
That does not mean that there are not ways forward; I genuinely believe that there are ways forward. I think that we are dealing with issues that are tractable, not intractable, and I think that we can get there.
Q93 Chair: You talk about those things, but you have not identified what they are. My main question really is what there is left to resolve.
Fabian Picardo: What there is left to resolve, as you rightly stick your finger into my wound and twist, is an issue that does not immediately relate to sovereignty. Of course, if the issue of the sovereignty of Gibraltar were put on the table, first of all, it would be very surprising because this negotiation is between the United Kingdom and the European Union. The European Union is not raising issues of sovereignty with us, and the United Kingdom is not putting them on the table.
Secondly, Gibraltar would get up from the table and go. We are not ready to discuss or negotiate our sovereignty with anybody other than the United Kingdom as a bilateral matter, which we enjoy discussion of with the UK. But there are, of course, issues that relate to sovereignty, and what we need to do is strip out those issues to ensure that, when we resolve them, we resolve them in a way that does not touch on and concern sovereignty. I am convinced that we can achieve that.
Q94 Mr Jones: A brief additional question, Chief Minister. You have said that sovereignty is not on the table either from the EU’s or the UK’s standpoint. It certainly is from the Spanish standpoint, isn’t it?
Fabian Picardo: Some of the issues that are on the table are on the table because Spain has chosen that they should be. Look, this is a negotiation. We therefore cannot prevent another party from putting issues on the table, but we will not engage on any issue that involves sovereignty. Spain too, it must be said, has deployed a lot of resources to make this negotiation possible, and has put some of its most brilliant negotiators at the table. So have the EU, the UK and Gibraltar, and we have, as a result, been able to avoid intractable problems stopping us from making the progress that we have made. But there is one issue, in particular, where it is very difficult to strip out sovereignty. It is an issue that, none the less, all parties would want to see engaged, because it can deliver prosperity and it can be an engine for growth. But we need to ensure that, if we do so, we do so in a way that is sovereignty neutral for Gibraltar and for the United Kingdom.
I have no doubt, given the strength of feeling in the United Kingdom Government now, and indeed if the political complexion of the British Government were to change in the future, that there would be equal lack of appetite for any discussion, let alone negotiation, of any issue of sovereignty or any cession thereof. That must be made clear from the word go; we have made it clear, we have insisted on that and we will continue to insist on that. That does not mean that we want to stop trying to find a deal that does not engage sovereignty. As you will know, from your experience of the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union, you can be doing something very virtuous and very positive that we all sign up to, but it can have a sovereignty implication. For some of us, that is anathema, and we will not do the thing if it involves a sovereignty implication.
Q95 Chair: There is another factor: the defence question. We are doing an inquiry into PESCO right now. What implications in terms of sovereignty are you dealing with on the defence issue? That is something that is going on in the background. You have not mentioned it yet. That is not a criticism, but it is there, and it hovers over the issue, does it not?
Fabian Picardo: Happily, the Gibraltar constitution sets out very clearly that that is not my responsibility, so I would not want to give you evidence on something for which I am not responsible.
Q96 Chair: No, but in reality you are talking about the EU and the UK. That, therefore, is an issue that concerns us and we want to know what—
Fabian Picardo: Defence and security are not issues in the United Kingdom-EU negotiation. Of course, there will be derogations involving—
Q97 Chair: As you rightly mentioned, Mr Picardo, there are issues that are subsets of sovereignty, and in my opinion this is one of them. You are faced with something that is of strategic importance and has been for centuries. The sovereignty of the Rock itself is tied into its military capacity. So I ask again whether you can enlarge on that or whether you think it is so far outside your control that you would rather not do so.
Fabian Picardo: It is not my area of responsibility, and it is not in the EU-UK negotiation, although it is no secret that if we free up movement of people across that frontier, there are implications for the movement of UK service personnel, and indeed the service personnel of all the member states of the Schengen area, who would be able to access Gibraltar freely without showing a passport. Those issues are being dealt with, in my view, very efficiently by the MOD in the United Kingdom and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I have visibility of them, as you would expect, because they are issues that involve Gibraltar, but I do not have responsibility for them, so it would be wrong of me to try and venture an answer in respect of that.
Chair: We will ask the right people the right question.
Fabian Picardo: Thank you.
Q98 Gavin Robinson: Good afternoon, Chief Minister. Since you last spoke to us, we have enjoyed, endured or experienced two changes in Prime Minister. From your perspective, has that impacted the continuity of negotiations? Are you content, or could you give us a view as to how much of a priority these negotiations on Gibraltar are for our current Prime Minister?
Fabian Picardo: Is it only two? Who’s counting? Let me see. Both those Prime Ministers that you referred to—Boris Johnson and Liz Truss—have been extraordinarily supportive of the people of Gibraltar. Both of them were previously Foreign Secretaries as well, and from their position in King Charles Street they were more involved in the negotiations than they were from their positions in Downing Street.
One thing that we are pleased did not happen was that we did not have a change of Foreign Secretary after the Truss/Sunak changeover—there was an interregnum when Mr Cleverly was in another Department, but he soon came back to being Foreign Secretary. I do not think that, as a result, there has been any material change that has affected the negotiation.
Of course, these issues are political and happening in the background, and they do affect the mood in the negotiating room. When the United Kingdom was going through that very difficult period, there was a bit of a mood in the negotiating room, but there was no change in policy and no chance of a change in policy on the fundamental issues in the negotiation, let alone the underlying fundamental issue of sovereignty.
Despite everything else that might have been going on—of course, I follow UK politics as assiduously as I follow Gibraltar politics—both Liz Truss and Boris Johnson have been hugely supportive of Gibraltar, both as Foreign Secretaries and as Prime Ministers, and Rishi Sunak and James Cleverly are now as supportive as Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary respectively.
Q99 Mr Jones: Chief Minister, to go back to the airport, as you are probably aware The Times reported last week that negotiations had stalled because of Spanish demands for a regulatory framework relating to the management of the airport. You have used the expression “ingredients of sovereignty” in the past. Have Madrid reintroduced ingredients of sovereignty into the negotiations? Would you countenance Madrid playing a role in the airport management beyond the terms of the 2006 Cordoba agreement?
Fabian Picardo: The Times is my newspaper—it is the paper I read every day. It is not the Bible, though, and it is not right, in my view, to characterise the state of the negotiations as “stalled” as a result of any issue relating to the airport. Although I thought the writing by the journalist was very good, I do not recognise that description, for a simple reason: the negotiations cannot now continue for this period, because of the calling of the Spanish election. We all expect our democracy to be respected. Spain is a key player in this negotiation. The European Commission is embarked on this process because Spain, the member state, has asked the European Commission to become embarked on this process, and the European Commission is rightly respecting, as we are respecting, the fact that there is an ongoing process of election in Spain. The process of negotiation therefore is, to take the word used by the journalist, “stalled” in that period, but it is not true to say that before Prime Minister Sánchez called the general election in Spain—the morning after the regional elections—on 29 May, the talks had been stalled. The talks were sticky, difficult and intense, which is exactly what you would expect in this process as it comes towards an end game. So I do not recognise the suggestion that the airport has led to the negotiations being stalled.
Q100 Mr Jones: Is it correct that the Spanish are demanding a regulatory framework for the management of the airport?
Fabian Picardo: I have found it very difficult, but I have ensured that in the past 21 months I have not gone into the detail of the negotiations, and what the issues in the negotiations are, for a reason that I am sure you will agree makes sense. If I start to put my negotiating position in the public domain, the other side in the negotiation immediately understands that I can no longer resile from any part of it, because the people of Gibraltar will then judge that I have resiled from a position that I had stated publicly, and would not judge me kindly for that. I therefore think it prudent at this stage not to go into the detail of what is being sought.
Q101 Mr Jones: I respect that, but could you say when customs and immigration issues would cross the UK’s and Gibraltar’s red lines on the issues of sovereignty, jurisdiction and control?
Fabian Picardo: I think these issues are clear. They are legal as well as political. We are very clear that any control of immigration to Gibraltar has to be handled by Gibraltar. Nobody comes into Gibraltar if they are not permitted by Gibraltar to come into Gibraltar. The question of customs is one that we have always been able to control in Gibraltar, and we will continue to. If somebody were to suggest that Gibraltar customs should not have control of what comes into Gibraltar, that would be unacceptable. On the airport, immigration, customs—on any of the things that are the ingredients or indicia of sovereignty—I can assure you we will not concede.
We are working very hard with brilliant teams in Brussels, London, Madrid and Gibraltar to find compromises, short of in any way going near a concession, that enable us to have systems that work on customs, immigration and transport, including air transport. We are working to find compromises that enable us to achieve what we want to achieve, but are not going anywhere near the possibility of even considering a concession on sovereignty, jurisdiction or control.
Mr Jones: Thank you; that is very clear.
Q102 Chair: I have one other question on the airport. There is only one airport on the Rock, as we know; we have been going on it for some time. I come back to the question of defence, because after all, planes have to land somewhere and they cannot land anywhere in Gibraltar except at the airport. Is there some issue there?
Fabian Picardo: I think that the question of the MAA’s control of Gibraltar airport and the RAF involvement is not an issue that has become live. I don’t want to get into the detail of the negotiation, but I am happy to tell you that that is not a hare that needs to run; it is not an issue.
Q103 Richard Drax: Good afternoon, Chief Minister. On the issue of the Gibraltar-Spain border, the Governor of Gibraltar, Vice-Admiral Sir David Steel, recently said: “We have reached a formula which would mean Frontex”—the EU border agency—“would manage the border on behalf of the EU, overseen by Spanish officials.” What does “overseen by Spanish officials” mean?
Fabian Picardo: The formula that Sir David is referring to there is the formula that was agreed in the new year’s eve agreement, which we did on 31 December 2020. It provides that Spain retains responsibility, under the Schengen acquis, for entry into Spain and the Schengen area through Spain and La Línea .
Q104 Richard Drax: So Gibraltar will apply the Schengen borders code, will it?
Fabian Picardo: No, no. Let me break it down, so that we go back to what we agreed and we understand the layers of it, because that will be helpful. Spain remains responsible for the application of the Schengen acquis, because she is responsible for entries into Schengen—in particular, through the frontier between Gibraltar and La Línea in Spain. In order to remove that frontier between us and to have the entry points into Gibraltar be the de facto entry points into Schengen, Gibraltar will clear arrivals—for example, immigration arrivals—first. After they are Gibraltar-immigration cleared, you can then clear Schengen immigration, which would be done through Frontex, overseen by the Spanish, who retain the responsibility for that.
Now, how do you clear Schengen immigration? You go through the Schengen information system, which is held by each of the member states independently. The Schengen information system that would be relevant to entries into Schengen via Spain at La Línea would be the Spanish SIS, so the Spanish would be overseeing the use of the SIS and Frontex would check the passports on the frontline. That was agreed under the new year’s eve agreement with a horizon of four years, and that is the position that we are negotiating.
Q105 Richard Drax: Just to dig down a bit further on this issue, we are looking at the EU’s soon-to-be-introduced entry-exit system. That will, among other things, replace the wet stamping of passports on entry to and exit from the Schengen zone. Have you looked at entry-exit as part of your thinking on how checks at the Gibraltar-Spain border can be streamlined?
Fabian Picardo: Yes, indeed. It is one of the things that we have talked in great detail about to our Spanish and European colleagues. It forms part of how the checks will be carried out in the period after ETIAS comes into effect. There will be machine checks at Gibraltar airport, which will have to develop and change as ETIAS comes into effect.
Q106 Craig Mackinlay: To add to what Mr Drax has said, it feels as though we have not really gone much further than when we came to see you last year. Access to Gibraltar would be your first frontier. If we went to Gibraltar, we would go through the Gibraltar frontier and then through the Schengen frontier manned by Spanish officials on behalf of Frontex.
Fabian Picardo: No, manned by Frontex.
Q107 Craig Mackinlay: Okay. Let us take an instance where a British citizen is cleared, and is fine according to Gibraltar. Say the Schengen zone said “No, this is a baddie. We do not want these people to have access to the Schengen zone.” Would they then be denied access to Gibraltar? What we are trying to achieve—I do not need to tell you—is a free-flowing land border between Gibraltar and Spain, so the interchange of workers and all that can go very smoothly. Would there be an instance where Gibraltar accepts somebody as perfectly acceptable to go into Gibraltar, but the Schengen zone says no? What happens to that person?
Fabian Picardo: I do not agree with your characterisation that we have not gone a lot further than when you last spoke to us. Perhaps I am not giving you much more detail because we have not yet finished the negotiation, so I cannot give you much more detail at this stage, for all the reasons I have set out. Believe me, there is no one who wants to talk about the detail of this negotiation as much as me, because it has taken up most of my life and my colleagues’ lives.
Q108 Craig Mackinlay: What I am trying to get to is that the arrangement that you are trying to make at the airport is to smooth the land crossing.
Fabian Picardo: I will come to this now. This is an area that we discussed at the time of the new year’s eve agreement, and we set it out in quite a lot of detail. There are circumstances—I do not want to go into them—where somebody is cleared by Gibraltar immigration, they are not cleared by Schengen immigration, and they are not permitted to enter Gibraltar. There are also circumstances where somebody is cleared by Gibraltar immigration, they are not cleared by Schengen immigration but they are permitted to enter Gibraltar. There are also circumstances where somebody is rejected by Gibraltar immigration, but they would potentially be cleared by Schengen immigration. They are not going to come to Gibraltar and they are potentially allowed to transit through Gibraltar.
There are many permutations of that. The detail of that is, I would say, agreed—or almost agreed, not because it is difficult politically, but because it is difficult technically. There are human rights issues that we have to get right in respect of each of those travellers to ensure that we are not inadvertently breaching human rights and data rights of subjects. Getting them right requires a lot of detailed work and advice to ensure that we produce a text that the EU is comfortable with; that does not breach EU citizens’ rights; and on which the United Kingdom and Gibraltar are relaxed about entering into an agreement, without any human rights issues arising.
Q109 Craig Mackinlay: I am none the wiser, I’m afraid, Mr Picardo.
Fabian Picardo: And you won’t be, because I cannot give you the detail, and I won’t be drawn on it.
Q110 Craig Mackinlay: But what do you envisage? Let me give you a permutation of the problem. I travel to Gibraltar. Gibraltar is happy with me—I am a British citizen—but for whatever reason, Brussels hates me and does not allow me into the Schengen zone. What happens to me? Am I allowed to stay in Gibraltar, or would the override of the Schengen refusal not permit me to stay in Gibraltar?
Fabian Picardo: There are circumstances in which we, too, would, with the information the Schengen information system has, consider you a baddie. We might not have had it, but we might have it as a result of the Schengen information system. Let me give you an example that cannot be controversial: if you are known to the Schengen information system to have had contacts with terrorist organisations, but that information had not been shared timeously with the United Kingdom and therefore had not been shared with Gibraltar, and it was brought to our attention on your arrival in Gibraltar—although we cleared you—that you had known links with terrorists, we too would not want you in Gibraltar. It is not a question of Schengen trumping Gibraltar; it is a question of sharing information when an individual arrives in Gibraltar, if it has not been shared already, that enables us to keep the people of Gibraltar safe.
Why do I say that? Because usually the information on the SIS, the Interpol database, the UK databases and the Gibraltar database will be the same. Nine and a half times out of 10, we want to keep the same people out of our territory. However, something could be uploaded a day earlier on to the SIS or the UK system, and we will work with each other to ensure that when we grant access, we do so with the latest information at our disposal.
Let me put it to you the other way. What if a European citizen arrives at Gibraltar, and Gibraltar says, “You can't come in”? He says, “I’m a European citizen; I’m entitled to access the Schengen Zone,” and we share the information with the next check, the Schengen information check. In those circumstances, the issue is even more complex, because a European citizen has the right to re-enter his territory—the EU—though he might have to be dealt with or detained in a particular way.
In the case of the British citizen, the question that you pose fails to break down British citizenship into two classes: British citizens resident in Gibraltar, and British citizens not resident in Gibraltar. If you are a British citizen resident in Gibraltar, you cannot be denied entry to Gibraltar. The permutations are huge in every instance. We need to break them all down—slice and dice them—to ensure that when the time comes, at that entry point or frontier, we do not act in a way that breaches the human rights of any individual. At the same time, we need to protect the people of Gibraltar as much as possible from any potential baddie, to use your terminology, that might be seeking to access Gibraltar.
Q111 Craig Mackinlay: They are perhaps obtuse examples that I am trying to give, but I want to try to tease away those permutations of problems. I am looking for who’s the boss here.
Fabian Picardo: On Gibraltar, the people of Gibraltar. In Europe, the Schengen information system and the European Commission. It could not be otherwise.
Q112 Richard Drax: Mr Picardo, can I quickly butt in? If I or my colleague is visiting, we will be judged as to whether we can visit Gibraltar. Unlike those who have residency there and can come in, we will be judged by two sets: the Schengen agreement and yours. In most cases, the Schengen and yours will be the same: “Richard Drax is not a terrorist. He has come to Gibraltar—that is where he wants to come to.” If there is something you do not like about me that Schengen has but you do not, you would have the right to say, “Sorry, Richard, you can’t come.” We will be judged by two sets of regulations or rules—call them what you like—to get into Gibraltar as a visitor.
Fabian Picardo: Immigration rules do not work on the basis of liking people or not. We have to be clear that we do not—this is a particularly emotive issue, and we have to be careful not to pretend that there is anything in play other than a desire to ensure the protection of the people of Gibraltar and of the Schengen area. In other words, we want to ensure that nobody who comes to Gibraltar is someone who will create a public security issue.
If we have access today to UK databases and Gibraltar databases, and those are almost identical to the Schengen information system, there should be no issue, because you are being judged, in effect, by the same standard. What puts you on the UK system is the same sort of thing that puts you on the European system. The UK will probably share information—because it shares it already with police forces around Europe at Interpol level—about a person who will create a security issue. We will share that information so that we have the maximum possible information available about an individual, because we will have, first, a Gibraltar check, which will have the UK information available about an individual, and then the European check. But what will you get in return? You will get the ability not just to move freely about Gibraltar once admitted, but to move freely between Gibraltar and the Schengen area, which you do not have today. At the moment, if you come to Gibraltar, you only come to Gibraltar; then you have to access the Schengen area at a frontier between Gibraltar and La Línea , so you have to go through that check twice, and you go through the Schengen information system.
Q113 Richard Drax: On minor criminal offences, it is quite hard to get into America if you have committed a crime in this country. It does not have to be that serious for the Americans to say, “Look, I’m sorry, but no, you can’t.” That may be something that the Schengen area would not have information about. If I get a speeding fine—I am doing 150 miles an hour and I get done for that—that sort of thing will not affect your judgment of me coming into Gibraltar.
Fabian Picardo: It does not now, and we are not going to change how we judge people coming into Gibraltar. We will continue to rely on our databases and make the same judgments that we make today. Schengen is not going to change how it determines whether it grants you access through Paris, Berlin or Gibraltar; it will be the same standard.
Q114 Mr Jones: Briefly, the airport, of course, is contiguous to the border, and it was put there deliberately. Do you anticipate any alterations to the structure of the airport to accommodate the various permutations you have been talking about?
Fabian Picardo: We announced during the course of the new year’s eve agreement that a joint area will be added to the airport, which will be equidistant from Spain and Gibraltar. Wags have called it the Schengen shack, and it would be connected to Gibraltar; it would be in what is known as the joint facility. It would be a common operating space between Gibraltar and Spanish police and immigration. We have been working on that basis since we announced the new year’s eve agreement over two years ago.
Q115 Craig Mackinlay: Sorry, I know we are running out of time. If I come to Gibraltar with no recourse to public funds and book a hotel, how long can I stay there as a British citizen?
Fabian Picardo: From memory, I think 90 days.
Q116 Craig Mackinlay: And that has always been the case, has it?
Fabian Picardo: Yes.
Craig Mackinlay: Because that is the same as the Schengen rights.
Fabian Picardo: Just as when any British citizen goes to the Cayman Islands, or any of the other OTs.
Q117 Chair: You mentioned that it depends on the subject matter. Gibraltar has very high per capita income. If you ask the question, “Where has a lot of this come from?” I may say, “It is thanks to your Administration and others, who have generated a completely new dimension to the economic advantages of Gibraltar.”
Three issues crop up in my mind: gambling, finance and, of course, human rights. When it comes to the differences of approach and of law between the Schengen area and—let’s call it—the UK area, obviously, there are people who might want to come in who are deeply involved in any one of those three issues. It could be human rights issues, and those can be very tricky. I remember, for example, the problem you had a long time ago when there was a shooting that affected the European convention on human rights. That is the kind of situation that I had in mind, if you follow me.
Then there is the financial question of bodies such as the Financial Conduct Authority. We met your people when they came here—they were very impressive, if I may say so. There is then gambling, where there are people who, let us put it mildly, occasionally have to be well regulated.
Have you got a tick box, or a system for evaluating the issues we have just been discussing, which, in many ways, are at the heart of all this stuff, by reference to subject matter, so that you are sure when the negotiations are completed that no stones have been left unturned?
Fabian Picardo: If I may say so, I think that is exactly why the negotiation has taken so long—because all parties want to ensure this is a complete negotiation that does not result in more issues arising in the future. However, the issue of financial services and online gaming involves the provision of services, and the provision of services is not a part of the agreement we are negotiating; it is not part of the treaty negotiations. So those issues are outwith the—
Q118 Chair: It is not a question of entry—I mean it is not in one sense, but it certainly is in another.
Fabian Picardo: The freedom of movement of people? Absolutely. The people who work in those industries will be able to move freely between the Schengen area and Gibraltar if they are resident in Gibraltar, and anybody doing business with those businesses can come to Gibraltar and have access to Gibraltar and the area around Gibraltar.
But we must remember that the standard of regulation of online gaming in Gibraltar is the highest in the world: we are a more demanding regulator of online gaming than the United Kingdom, than the United States, than any member state of the European Union. When it comes to financial services, under the arrangements that were done when we left the EU, Gibraltar and the UK have a unified system of regulation; in other words, we still operate a single market between Gibraltar and the UK in financial services. You can passport from the UK into Gibraltar and from Gibraltar into the UK. Why? Because Gibraltar adheres to exactly the same very high standards of regulation of financial services as the United Kingdom. So you are unlikely to get unsavoury characters visiting Gibraltar to do business with our gaming community or our financial services community; that is not the reality at all.
So people should have no difficulty whatsoever in coming to Gibraltar, accessing Gibraltar and going through the Schengen information system. Indeed, as you will know from your visit to Gibraltar, a very large number of the people who work in the online gaming industry already live in the Schengen space and already have Schengen residence cards and are cleared for those purposes, so they would have no Schengen information system issues if they were to try to access Gibraltar through the airport, for example.
Chair: Very good. Thank you.
Q119 Greg Smith: Good afternoon, Chief Minister. When we visited the Rock last year, we had quite a difficult meeting with the blue ID card holders. There was a lot of frustration, anxiety and anger in the room. After they had shared many of the problems they had had at the border—the frequent and thorough checks, sometimes being denied entry to Spain from Gibraltar—I distinctly remember asking how many of them were considering staying in Gibraltar, and a frightening number put up their hand to say that if it did not get better, they might well leave. They did not want to leave, but they felt they had no option. Are those problems persisting for blue ID card holders? Has anything got better whatsoever on that front? And, inherent to that, have you and Ministers in your Government met with those blue ID card holders to try to help them on a generic or indeed an individual basis, with the problems they are facing?
Fabian Picardo: We need to understand the problem. The problem is that we are no longer European citizens. Therefore, to access the Schengen area—that means to cross the frontier between Gibraltar and Spain—we have to have our passports stamped. That is because the majority of the British public decided to leave the EU; we have to accept that that is the result of that plebiscite, and it has consequences, positive and negative.
As a result of the commencement of negotiations with the EU, Spain was able to agree with the European Commission that Gibraltar ID card holders—red ID card holders—would be able to continue to access the Schengen zone, as long as they were staying in Spain and not going to another member state, without having their passport stamped. That has continued to be the case. It is not a derogation that we can negotiate, and it is not something we can seek to include other colour ID card holders in—believe me, we have tried, and it has been impossible. I have been in correspondence with and met a number of blue ID card holders. They understand that this is not in the gift of the Government of Gibraltar. They understand that if we resolve the treaty negotiations favourably and we have the fluidity that we believe we can have if we resolve them favourably, their problem will be resolved too—the problem will be resolved for all colour ID card holders.
That is what we are working very hard to do: to deliver a solution for blue ID card holders, magenta ID card holders, red ID card holders, etc. But that solution is the treaty. If there isn’t a treaty, then the treatment that blue ID card holders get is the treatment that red ID card holders will get too. That means that every time we cross into Spain, we will have our passport checked, we will have our passport stamped and we will start the countdown of days that we can be in Spain.
So, in answer to your question, “Have things got better?”, I would answer very positively, by saying they haven’t yet got worse. We are hoping to have a treaty to resolve the issue for everyone.
Q120 Greg Smith: I appreciate that answer, and I fully respect the position, in that the rules that apply are very clear. Again—this is not within your gift to solve, but it is a negotiating point, I would suggest—the inconsistency of approach that blue card holders have faced at the border—
Fabian Picardo: Can I make a point of order before you carry on with your question? It is a negotiating point in the sense that it is resolved if the negotiation is resolved.
Greg Smith: I accept that.
Fabian Picardo: It cannot be resolved in the run of play of the negotiation. It is one of the many issues in the negotiation that is resolved if you resolve the negotiation.
Greg Smith: You are absolutely right to pull me up on that. I guess that my question is this. We all accept that there has to be a resolved treaty deal, and I appreciate you cannot go into the detail of the points that you are making on that. We accept that, if there is a set of rules, and everybody is treated equally under those rules, with consistent application, that is the system. What we heard from many blue ID card holders in the meeting we held this time last year was that there was an inconsistency. Sometimes they had a more thorough check; sometimes they did not. Sometimes they were allowed straight through; often they were not. There were some other anecdotes, which we will not go into here, but—
Fabian Picardo: Welcome to Gibraltar. This is what the people of Gibraltar have been subjected to since the day the frontier opened in 1984. Indeed, while we were members of the European Union—we were British citizens, European citizens—with the right of free movement, some days we would have to wait six hours to cross into Spain.
Greg Smith: I totally understand that. It is more that—
Fabian Picardo: I am waiting for you to say, “Ich bin ein Gibraltarian.”
Q121 Greg Smith: The point I am trying to get to is that the evidence was that that had actually got worse post Brexit. I fully accept that it has happened for ever, but the evidence we heard was that it had got worse. In what way has your Government attempted to resolve the equal application of the set of rules that we happen to be currently under, before any new treaty, on behalf of those ID card holders?
Fabian Picardo: Mr Smith, you have got to understand that you are asking me a question about whether I have done the impossible, and therefore I have to ask you just to reflect on what it is that you are asking me to do.
The thing I will not do is to seek through Spanish colleagues to have every blue ID card holder checked with the same level of thoroughness. The thing we have done is to seek that blue ID card holders have the same treatment as red ID card holders, and that has been refused for reasons of policy that are European; I fully understand that we are accessing an immigration area that is not our own, which has its rules. A derogation has been offered and proposed, and is being implemented in respect of one particular category—the red ID card holders.
What I cannot do, the day a blue ID card holder goes through and has a lax check, is complain that it is not as thorough as it was last time. I know that I cannot seek consistency in having lax checks for blue ID card holders every time, because it will not be agreed. That is the difficult situation that we would find ourselves in if we start at that part of the negotiation.
That is not to say that I do not entirely empathise and sympathise with blue ID card holders. We are working our socks off to make sure that their problem goes away and that red ID card holders do not have a bigger problem in the future.
Q122 Greg Smith: That is ultimately what I was getting to. It is good to hear that you have that drive on that.
Can I turn the focus to the business interest? Clearly, there are a great number of Spanish citizens who come to Gibraltar to work, as there are Gibraltarians who go to Spain to work. There is also the trade flow of goods and services in both directions. On the visit last year, which we have talked a lot about, we met with business groups, who made a number of representations. From the negotiations you have had with Spain and the European Union, and from the ongoing ones, do you think that the economic impact of not getting to a settled deal works both ways? Isn’t having an easier flow of goods and services—not a perfect flow, because we are in a different world, but an easier one—hurting them as much as it is hurting Gibraltar?
Fabian Picardo: Undoubtedly. Gibraltar is 25% of the GDP of the region around Gibraltar, as measured by the chamber of commerce independently in 2014-15. We can only think of the opportunity costs of not having done these arrangements. Of course, if we do these arrangements and get beyond the four-year horizon, then, as the whole thing hardens, the opportunities for businesses on both sides of the frontier are huge.
That is where we all believe we can create this area of shared prosperity. That is becoming a slightly lacklustre phrase—we have been talking about it a lot, but we have not been able to deliver it—but I’ll be damned if I am going to stop trying to deliver it and commit myself to delivering greater poverty for the whole region. It is worth continuing to work very hard to have this area of shared prosperity. That must only mean greater prosperity than what we have today, greater opportunities for businesses in Gibraltar, who are the ones I represent and am looking out for, and greater opportunities for the businesses around Gibraltar to use Gibraltar and create more prosperity for the people they employ in the area. It is definitely doable.
The absence of a deal means that the frontier can be sticky—perhaps no stickier than it has been for the past 50 years while we were members of the European Union, only 30 or 40 of which saw the frontier completely open—but I am ambitious to try to achieve more. What we have found in our Spanish counterparts is that they too are ambitious to try to achieve more. We have had the United Kingdom and the European Union deploy the resources necessary to try to enable us to achieve that opportunity to deliver a treaty that can bring about this additional prosperity.
Q123 Greg Smith: One last question on that—as a precursor, I am fascinated to know the answer in as much detail as you are able to give. Do you worry that any of the conditionality that exists within the Windsor framework might be replicated in any deal or treaty that you get with the European Union and Spain, and that that would create some pretty perverse scenarios? Sir Jeffrey Donaldson gave an example in the Chamber of the House of Commons about a butcher in Northern Ireland who could only sell sausages made to British standards if they first imported them back to GB and then took them back to Northern Ireland, by which point they would have gone a bit green and not be so saleable. Do you worry that any of the conditionality that the EU put into the Windsor framework for goods and services might end up being replicated?
Fabian Picardo: I have to say that I think the Windsor framework is a great achievement. It has resolved an issue that appeared intractable, and that gives me hope. The Prime Minister’s commitment to delivering for the people of Northern Ireland delivered that framework, and Jeffrey Donaldson is rightly, in representation of the people of Northern Ireland, looking at the detail of it. I met with Jeffrey this afternoon; he is a great friend of Gibraltar. The people of Gibraltar and the people of Northern Ireland have long-standing links. My family, like many others in Gibraltar, was evacuated to Ballymena during the second world war. A lot of what happens in Northern Ireland is relevant to what happens in Gibraltar.
It is also true that we have kept the issue of Northern Ireland and the Gibraltar negotiation entirely separate. There have been positive moments in the Northern Irish negotiation that have not made the negotiation in Gibraltar go any faster, and positive moments in the Gibraltar negotiation that could not help unblock the Northern Irish negotiation. They are two entirely separate negotiations. Of course we have an eye to what has been included in the Windsor framework, and a lot of it, if I may so, is actually helpful in many ways.
Chair: Thank you. Not everybody would agree with that, but that is another question.
Q124 Craig Mackinlay: It is truly good to see you again, Mr Picardo. Let’s discuss a troublesome year of elections facing both Gibraltar and Spain generally—
Fabian Picardo: Why, what do you know about my election that is going to be troublesome?
Craig Mackinlay: No, no, I don’t know anything, but it is a year of some flux because we have elections. There are Spanish elections on 23 July, with unknown outcomes. You have broad alliances; the Sumar alliance of the leftist parties are trying to get together to try and shore up PM Sánchez. The People’s Party seems to be in the ascendancy at the moment—who knows? I do not live there, and I do not take that much interest in the detail of Spanish politics. And then you have the dimension of Vox, who have been saying some fairly robust things. I think that the general secretary of Vox said a little while ago, “I come to say this loud and clear: Gibraltar is Spanish. We must close the gate to eliminate any possibility of access to Gibraltar”. The People’s Party said just yesterday, “We will resume a responsible dialogue with the British Government to address the process of decolonisation of Gibraltar and the recovery of sovereignty.”
There seem to be some potentially unhelpful people out there who could potentially be in government in Spain within a few weeks. I don’t suppose that there will be a clear outcome, and I expect there will be some horse trading to try and get a coalition together—such is the nature of it. But where does all this lead for Gibraltar? You are in a state of unknown outcomes at the moment—
Fabian Picardo: Well, that’s politics and that’s life. I have dealt with Partido Popular in government before. Do you want a dissertation from me on what I think is going to happen in the Spanish general election, because I can go on for hours on that if you like?
Q125 Craig Mackinlay: No, not at all. We are at a crossroads where there are three outcomes: Vox, Partido Popular or the left.
Fabian Picardo: No, I don’t agree. I think that there are only two likely outcomes: a Partido Popular Government with Vox support—or Vox Ministers—or a socialist Government with Sumar Ministers, which is what we have had until now, with support agreements with other, smaller entities represented in the Parliament.
Look, let’s be very clear: Vox can say what they like about Gibraltar. I can say that Galicia is French, but that does not make Galicia French. If the French have had a historical claim to Galicia, it does not make Galicia any more French today just because I say it is French. Gibraltar is not Spanish. Gibraltar has probably not ever been Spanish, because the Spain that held Gibraltar is not the Spain that you have today; it was Castile and all the rest of it. And Gibraltar is never going to be Spanish. That is the reality.
Whatever the political rhetoric, the reality is not going to change. It is not going to change after this election, and it is not going to change otherwise. I have been to the United Nations, with a Partido Popular Government in Spain with a particularly virulent Spanish Foreign Minister, and I have had to say, “Wake up and smell the coffee. Gibraltar will never be Spanish.” That position is not going to change under my generation or under future generations of Gibraltarians. So that politics is the politics of rhetoric; it is not the politics of reality.
Now, you read the first line of the paragraph that Partido Popular have put in their manifesto about Gibraltar, but you did not read the second line. The second line says, “We will continue the process of negotiation arising from Brexit with particular emphasis on matters relating to taxation, the environment, etc, etc, and with particular concern for the continued fluidity and circulation of people.”
Well, Partido Popular is a party that has been in government. Cast your mind back: we started our negotiations with them when the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union. The withdrawal agreement was negotiated with Partido Popular in government and Señor Dastis as Foreign Minister. Then, we ended that negotiation with PSOE, and Señor Borrell as Foreign Minister, and we started the new negotiation with Arancha González Laya as Foreign Minister. But when we started this process—when Brexit had not been broken down into two phases, and so on—Partido Popular was in government, and they were already talking about dealing with the Gibraltar issue and so on.
We have to be mature about this process. We must not fall into the trap of putting rhetoric over reality. We must allow far-right parties in Spain to do that if they wish. They can bang on with their rhetoric as long as they like. They are never going to get a finger on my land. The people of Gibraltar will never allow them to. Behind me there are 32,000 just like me before they get their finger on the Rock of Gibraltar, and that ain’t ever going to happen. The sooner they wake up and smell that coffee that I have been serving for 12 years, and my predecessors have been serving before me, the better.
Q126 Craig Mackinlay: Right, so you think that they are using election rhetoric more than anything else. You have a relationship with the current Spanish Government, and it seems to be fairly positive.
Fabian Picardo: I do not think that it is election rhetoric; it is the rhetoric that Vox deploys all the time.
Q127 Craig Mackinlay: Not from the Rock—from the Spanish political parties.
Fabian Picardo: Yes, that is what I mean. They deploy that rhetoric all the time, and they get the same answer all the time. You would have thought that they would have got bored of hearing no.
Q128 Craig Mackinlay: So you think that whoever wins the election, it is on the same track with regard to your negotiation and the FCDO’s negotiation with whoever becomes the Spanish Government.
Fabian Picardo: There are opportunities to continue on the same track, absolutely, and I will not give up on pursuing this track.
Chair: The Gibraltar Chronicle will be very pleased to be able to report that, I suspect. I hope so.
Q129 Mr Jones: On a point of information, is it not the case, Chief Minister, that Gibraltar has been British for longer than it ever was Spanish?
Fabian Picardo: Indeed. The only point that I am disputing, Mr Jones, is whether it ever was “Spanish” in the context of the Spain that we have today, because the Spain that we have today did not exist in 1704. Remember that the people of Gibraltar do not count from 1713 when the treaty of Utrecht was done; we count from the conquest in 1704, which we call the liberation.
Q130 Craig Mackinlay: You will be aware that I put forward a ten-minute rule Bill some years ago to recommend that Gibraltar had a full MP within this Parliament. Do you think that it would be helpful now if we tried to reinforce that closeness, if not union, of Gibraltar with the United Kingdom, and would you support an MP?
Fabian Picardo: I signed a petition that was prepared by the Gibraltar in Westminster Group, in Gibraltar, in respect of the representation of Gibraltar in the Commons, or indeed in Westminster more widely. I caveated my signature by saying that of course there were issues there, because Gibraltar is fully autonomous in all matters except defence and external relations, and therefore issues would arise. There are issues, of course, about members from the devolved nations voting in Westminster. Those issues would have to be resolved, but in principle you get a big yes from me on that issue, if we can ringfence the Gibraltar constitution and all the issues that arise there. That is easy to say, and very complex to actually do. I do not think that it would resolve any of the issues that we have on the ground, though. It is an important issue of representation. It is an issue that affects other overseas territories too, but the issues that we have on the ground would not be resolved.
Q131 Craig Mackinlay: The reason I advanced it was because you had MEP representation via the south-west region. You are part of the sterling zone completely, so there are additional links that make an MP perhaps more desirable and more sensible compared with some other overseas territories that are perhaps not even in the sterling zone at all.
Fabian Picardo: Yes, but if I may say so, despite my signing the petition and despite your ten-minute rule Bill, we have not had any engagement from the Government on the issue. Therefore, you will excuse me for—
Q132 Craig Mackinlay: Would you like to?
Fabian Picardo: I will concentrate my efforts on delivering a treaty, because I think that that will resolve the issues that we have on the ground, rather than the issues that we have on representation.
Q133 Craig Mackinlay: On something almost completely different, as you will be aware, we have a difficulty at the moment with channel crossings on dinghies. How does Gibraltar cope with landings on Gibraltar from Morocco or elsewhere?
Fabian Picardo: We have them very sporadically. People do not want to come to Gibraltar because if they come to Gibraltar, of course they are in a different immigration zone. They want to get to Schengen. They want to be able to have access to the whole of the European Union, so they aim for the beaches around Gibraltar, in particular the beaches on the Tarifa side of the Spanish coast. The Spanish have a vast deployment to deal with the huge numbers that they have. With respect, I think they do it very well. I think they have really understood how to deal with the immigration issues. It is not easy. It is a humanitarian crisis that they often face, but it is not an issue that afflicts Gibraltar.
Q134 Craig Mackinlay: What happens when you do have some land in Gibraltar?
Fabian Picardo: Well, we have very few. We are usually able, through the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, to get in touch with their states of origin and return them.
Q135 Chair: Okay. I am going to ask the next question. At the start of November last year, your Government published a technical notice containing guidance for businesses and certain public services in the event of a non-negotiated outcome. That was followed by a tabletop exercise looking at the potential consequences of a non-negotiated outcome. Has that notice been updated in the last seven months, and what other non-negotiated outcome activities have you initiated and overseen?
Fabian Picardo: As far as I know—I don’t have the Deputy Chief Minister with me, who is running the No Negotiated Outcome board—that technical notice has not been updated, but other notices have been issued in different subject areas, and there is continued engagement between the Government of Gibraltar and the Government of the United Kingdom on NNO planning. Statements are made after those meetings and, where relevant, notices are issued and published in the press in Gibraltar to enable the public and businesses to be aware of the issues that have become live as a result of an NNO board meeting.
Q136 Chair: So you would plan to issue specific guidance to the general public?
Fabian Picardo: In the event of non-negotiated outcome, much more information would be made available. It is not prudent to make it available at this stage because, of course, it could potentially affect the negotiation.
Q137 Chair: The November notice covered a range of areas, including the export of waste. What specific non-negotiated outcome support are you getting from the UK Government?
Fabian Picardo: A lot of detailed work is being done, in particular because there are a number of conventions that apply now to the disposal of waste. For example, people in Gibraltar might blithely say, “Well, we can just send our waste to Morocco,” but you can no longer do that because there are international conventions that set out where you can send waste and who can accept it. The work has been done. There is a plan in place for the exportation of waste in the event of no negotiated outcome. The reason I am a little coy about telling you about those details is because, of course, if we were to go into an NNO, and it were not a friendly NNO—in other words, if it were more in anger than in sorrow—we would need to ensure that we were able to deploy our plans without them being thwarted before we do.
Q138 Chair: In the event of an NNO, would it be right to assume that the UK Government would have to provide financial support to Gibraltar? Have you calculated how much support you would need? Have the UK Government committed to provide it?
Fabian Picardo: There are continuing negotiations between the Government of Gibraltar and the Government of the United Kingdom about what happens in the event of an NNO. There have been pretty explicit assurances already given on the Floor of the House and directly to the Government of Gibraltar by the Government of the United Kingdom on financial support and on other support that would be forthcoming. I consider the calculations that have been done and shared with the United Kingdom to be confidential at this stage. I don’t think it is in our interest, while we are negotiating, to give our counterparts an inkling of what that cost would be.
Q139 Chair: To put it another way, how deleterious to the economy of La Línea and Spain would a non-negotiated outcome be? As you said earlier, it is mutually beneficial to have this larger area with a very positive outcome for trade running in both directions and for work.
Fabian Picardo: The best advocate for the city of La Línea is the Mayor of La Línea, and he has been pretty explicit that no negotiated outcome would be pretty horrific for La Línea, and that he does not perceive that sufficient work has been done to mitigate that by the Spanish Government, in the same way as the United Kingdom Government and the Gibraltar Government have been doing for Gibraltar. I think that the relationship between La Línea and Gibraltar is symbiotic and that the pain of one will be felt by the other.
Chair: Thank you.
Q140 Greg Smith: Chief Minister, presuming a deal is reached—referendum?
Fabian Picardo: When the time comes.
Q141 Greg Smith: So there will be a referendum.
Fabian Picardo: My view is that that if an issue in the treaty touches and concerns sovereignty—and it won’t—it has to go to a referendum. If an issue in the treaty does not touch and concern sovereignty, but changes the balance of the way that things are done in Gibraltar, it may be necessary to put it to a referendum. In particular, I remind you that there is a four-year horizon in the treaty, and that therefore there is a period of time in which a decision can be made about whether or not a referendum needs to be called on the treaty.
Chair: Thank you very much. Mr Jones, I think your question was somewhat pre-empted by Mr Mackinlay.
Mr Jones: Yes, Mr Mackinlay ate my sandwiches, Chairman.
Chair: We get on very well in this Committee, but poaching questions is—
Fabian Picardo: Beyond the pale.
Q142 Mr Jones: There is a point I would like to make. Presumably you intend to stand in the next Gibraltarian general election.
Fabian Picardo: Yes, I have made that clear already. It wasn’t my intention to. I made it very clear, on the night that I was first elected in 2011, that when my son started comprehensive education, I would no longer be Chief Minister of Gibraltar. But circumstances have conspired against me. As a result of covid and the inability to successfully conclude the negotiation, I believe it is incumbent on me to stand once again. My party have asked me to stand, and I have agreed.
Q143 Mr Jones: I paid another visit to Gibraltar with another Committee a few weeks ago, as you probably recall. One thing that I noticed was that the issue of integration was becoming more prominent. That was mentioned by a number of the witnesses we spoke to. We have already discussed the issue of whether Gibraltar should have its own MP. You said that this had not been discussed to any great extent with the British Government. Do you anticipate that it will be the subject of further discussion in due course?
Fabian Picardo: Yes. The thing that needs to happen, once we either have a treaty with the European Union or we don’t, is that the Gibraltar constitution needs to be updated. I do not think we have the bandwidth at the moment to do that. Remember that the Gibraltar Administration is a small Administration. Once you have got a different relationship with the EU, you probably need to update the 2006 constitution. That is the moment to have discussions about those issues, in my view.
Q144 Mr Jones: You are probably aware that the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee is conducting an inquiry into the overseas territories. One of the issues that it will consider is whether or not overseas territories should send MPs to Westminster. Is that something that interests you?
Fabian Picardo: As you know from the discussion that we had in my office in Gibraltar, it is something that I think is important to consider from the point of view of representation. There are British citizens who are not represented in the British Parliament. That has to be addressed in some way, but it has to be done a way that does not take away from the autonomy that the overseas territories have achieved—each of them having achieved different levels of autonomy. Gibraltar, probably with Bermuda, are the territories that have the highest level of autonomy, which we would not wish to see compromised.
Getting the balance right—I think we had half an hour of discussion when you were in my office—is not going to be easy. That doesn’t mean that we do not need to have that discussion and that it is not an issue that we need to resolve. As Mr Mackinlay was saying, we were represented with the rest of the British people who were within the European continent in the European Parliament. We are now not represented in the British Parliament in London. There are other issues that arise as a result.
Q145 Mr Jones: Would you be interested in being Gibraltar’s first Westminster MP?
Fabian Picardo: Look, once I have done my best for the people of Gibraltar, if they decide to return me as their Chief Minister after the next general election, which is a matter entirely for them—I take nothing for granted—I shall be available for every Chief Minister of Gibraltar should they ever need my rolodex of contacts or any advice, but politics and me will be no longer bedfellows.
Mr Jones: I find that hard to believe, Chief Minister.
Fabian Picardo: Well, that is how it feels today.
Chair: We have now reached the end of our questions. I will simply comment that I am retiring from Parliament after the best part of what will be 40 years, by the next general election, in Westminster. I am not offering myself as an MP for Gibraltar, because I am now 83 and I will be nearly 84 and a half when I retire. Thank you very much for coming. I am not going to be the next MP for Gibraltar—you can rest assured about that—but you have given us a very interesting insight into what is going on. We always appreciate having you here.
Fabian Picardo: Thank you very much; that is kind of you. I might volunteer Sir Joe Bossano to be Gibraltar’s first MP. He has only been a member of Parliament in Gibraltar for 51 years.
Chair: Brilliant. That’s great—I am so glad to hear that.