Emma Birkbeck and Kathryn Rossiter.

Q134 The Chair: Welcome to the committee. Thank you for joining us today. I start with a question that is also an opportunity for you to say who you are and what organisation you are from. How inclusive do you believe the sector is to all walks of life?

Emma Birkbeck: I actually work in commercial horticulture, and it is important to make that quite clear. I work for a company called Fargro, and we support horticulture through supply and technical experience. As part of that, our head of marketing and I set up a group called Women in Horticulture. I am here today representing the Women in Horticulture group as a founder member. My background is not in horticulture, so it was really interesting listening to the other panel earlier and how that all happens, because I could not agree more strongly that the career path in horticulture is not that clear. I started work in a tomato nursery back in—a very long time ago. I could not see a career in horticulture, but somehow I have ended up back in one, and I am very pleased to have done so.

We set up Women in Horticulture because the company I work for has a mission to make horticulture thrive, and championing horticulture is part of that. It is about creating collaborative opportunities to allow people to share knowledge and skills, to get an understanding of what is a huge industry and support each other with individual learning and networking. We heard earlier that the access and knowledge to what you can learn, how you can learn, where you can have a career, and what that looks like is very scattered. Already today we have talked about things from communal gardens and community projects to massive commercial feeding of the country, and it all falls under horticulture. It is such a big topic. It is very difficult.

How inclusive is the horticulture sector to people from all walks of life? It is very difficult to define. It is very inclusive, and there are definite pockets of inclusivity, but because of its breadth it is really hard to define how inclusive the sector as a whole is. I think we are very positive and that we have come a long way. The anecdotal evidence from my members is that the last 40 years have been tough, but we are getting there. There is so much more we can do to make horticulture more inclusive, from educating young people, to giving people access to careers, to understanding what that career looks like. It is not always about getting your hands dirty. I have very nice nails, and they do not have dirt under them because I do not dig the ground, but I am passionate about making sure that horticulture is a viable part of a career for anybody.

Kathryn Rossiter: I am chief executive of Thrive, and we are a charity that specialises in social and therapeutic horticulture, which is the use of plants, gardens and gardening tasks to improve health and well-being. Our vision as a charity is that gardening is actively encouraged as part of personal health and well-being management, and that social and therapeutic horticulture is available to whoever needs it wherever they live in the country. That is certainly not the case at the moment.

Thrive was set up in 1978, so we have been going for pretty much 45 years. It was established to try to bring the worlds of health and horticulture closer together, and that is a mission that we are still very much working on. We are the leading provider of training and education in social and therapeutic horticulture in the UK. We offer a very wide range of courses, from short introductory courses through practice development, and CPD opportunities, right the way through to a level 5 diploma, which is the largest curriculum for education in the field of social and therapeutic horticulture in the country at the moment. We provide advice and support to people and to organisations wanting to use their green spaces to improve health and well-being. In addition, we run social and therapeutic horticulture programmes in and from our gardens in London, Birmingham and Reading, working directly with people who are living with a wide range of disabilities and ill health, and across all age groups.

I have been chief executive of Thrive for over 10 years. I do not come from a horticulture background, but I am hugely passionate about the potential for horticulture and the use of plants and gardens for people’s health and well-being. I chair an organisation called the Green Care Coalition, which is a voluntary collaboration of other organisations with an interest in seeing nature-based interventions used more for health and well-being. I have recently taken on chairing a therapeutic horticulture stakeholder group that was set up by Natural England with the aim of looking at how we can scale up STH provision across the UK.

You asked how inclusive the horticulture sector is. I am not in mainstream horticulture, so I find that a very difficult question to answer, but it ought to be hugely inclusive because it is probably the most diverse sector there is. We have been talking today about using horticulture and gardening in our leisure time for our personal health and well-being through to it being a science and an academic subject that can be taught and that people can specialise and have careers in. There are not many other sectors that have that huge breadth of leisure, employment and health and well-being. It ought to be a hugely inclusive sector, but I do not know the facts about just how inclusive it is at the moment.

Emma Birkbeck: I do not think there are facts available. That is part of the problem.

Kathryn Rossiter: Because it is so huge. Where do you put the boundaries in order to do the measurement?

Emma Birkbeck: There are pockets of statistics in areas. You can find some, but you cannot find them for the sector because it is already, by its nature, diverse.

The Chair: Yes, it is always a difficult one. If you were looking for a rule of thumb from your own experience, do you think that there is a problem?

Emma Birkbeck: Is there a problem? That is a really interesting question. I am not sure that “problem” is the way I would describe it. Is there more we can do? Absolutely.

Q135 Baroness Fookes: As a woman politician trying to ensure that women get every chance possible to do whatever they wish to do in life, can I ask you to say, Emma, what challenges are facing women working in this sector?

Emma Birkbeck: There are many. It is in pockets. As I said, I work in commercial horticulture with large-scale growers, and a lot of them are male, and that is how it is, so that is a challenge. We are seeing more women coming into senior positions, but they tend to be like me; they have developed a career outside horticulture and are being given roles because of their experience in management and leadership and not their experience in horticulture. We do not see many coming through. There is a gender pay gap in parts of horticulture; there is no doubt about that.

We set up Women in Horticulture because there is a lack of networking and support systems for women working in the industry. I do not think it is any different from other sectors, but women have to work harder to get their voices heard in horticulture at times. We put this out to our members as a question, and a lot of them came back with issues about maternity benefits and childcare. Horticulture is so seasonal that at times of the season you are required to work very long hours. It is very busy. Nine to five is completely out the window. If you are managing the operation of picking on a strawberry farm in the middle of summer, you might be starting at half-past three or four o’clock in the morning. I do not think there are many childminders who are prepared to get up and look after your children at that time. Generally, statutory and maternity benefits are at a minimum. Is that because the industry does not want to support women? I am not sure of the answer to that.

It is an industry that is already financially burdened and challenged with rising costs and pressure from supermarkets and all the things that I know you have talked about in other committees. It does not attract women into horticulture, I would suggest, particularly young women. There is a Victoria Medal of Honour for horticulture. Only six people can hold it at any one time and, currently, of the 63, five are women. Maybe that tells the story.

Baroness Fookes: Indeed. Looking at higher qualifications, are women encouraged to go for higher qualifications that might lead to garden design or work in plant sciences?

Emma Birkbeck: To go back to the previous panel, there is a big gap in education for horticulture. We encourage our primary schools to the best of our ability to get outside and work with plants, and then in secondary education it gets left. If you happen to have a passion—some people naturally have a passion that they have developed through various things—there are lots of qualifications. Are women encouraged? Probably not in the workplace. On the commercial side of what we do at Fargro, we have supported people through their MSc in horticulture. We have a very highly qualified technical department, and we are looking to broaden that with young people and women. The honest answer is that there is more we can do.

Kathryn Rossiter: Can I add to that from a horticulture therapy perspective? Obviously, we are a very small part of the overall horticulture industry, but it is very predominantly women-led. There are relatively few men working in social and therapeutic horticulture, so we are seeing a bit of a reverse there. Part of that is to do with the fact that people coming into social and therapeutic horticulture are not coming in purely from a horticultural angle; they tend to come in from education, social care, healthcare, nursing and a variety of other industries. It is mainly the caring-type industries that are predominantly women-led, and then they add the horticulture element. On our current diploma, we have 32 students studying, and only three are men.

Baroness Fookes: There could be a way forward for those who are able to do so to get a really good career in horticulture having started at the therapeutic level.

Kathryn Rossiter: Horticulture is sufficiently diverse. There are many different opportunities, so there should be no particular barriers to getting into horticulture other than those that are inherent in employment. From what we heard, it is the employment benefits and the rules that go with them that prevent women getting into horticulture rather than it being horticulture that prevents them getting into horticulture, if you get what I mean.

Baroness Willis of Summertown: We have not talked at all about wages in the horticultural sector as a whole, whether the low salaries are a barrier, and whether there is a difference between how much women are paid and how much men are paid in horticulture. Do you know what the pay gap is?

Emma Birkbeck: I have statistics, but the only statistics I could find were in the Landscape Institute’s Skills for Greener Places report. That is part of horticulture. When analysing annual salaries, the report found that men consistently earn more than women, even in comparative roles. Is horticulture particularly well paid? No. My boss is probably listening. I can confirm that I earn less today than I did 10 years ago in a different industry, but that is a choice. Horticulture is a passion. People definitely do not go into it for the money.

Baroness Willis of Summertown: If you are a woman single parent and you can earn more doing something else and the hours are more realistic, that could also become a real barrier. I would be interested in your views on that.

Emma Birkbeck: Absolutely. Yes.

Kathryn Rossiter: For social and therapeutic horticulture, there are no figures on salaries for us as a whole sector, but certainly from my perspective we employ people on ridiculously low salaries. I am embarrassed that we pay them so little, but that is because we are a charity. We are reliant on what we can get as fees for the services that we provide, and we top up with fundraising. Many people come into the sector from other careers. They have made a vocational choice to move out of mainstream nursing or other areas to come into therapeutic horticulture.

There are an awful lot of people working in our sector who are effectively unpaid and who do it because they love it. They want to take a community garden and run a therapeutic horticulture group in a local area. There is an awful lot of volunteer labour that goes into running horticulture therapy.

Lord Colgrain: Can I ask a rather contentious question? I am not sure that I am going to formulate it very well, so you must forgive me and try to understand the gist of what I want to say. We have heard in previous evidence sessions, and we are hearing a lot in the news at the moment, that there is a considerable number of unemployed people who do not seem to want to get back into work, and one of the areas of work that has been discussed is picking in horticulture. Can you see where the resistance is? The suggestion is that if people are introduced in the right way they will find elements of the sector attractive. Equally, we are hearing that they are not finding it attractive, and they do not really want to get involved in it.

Emma Birkbeck: Are we referring to Suella Braverman’s comments on training British people to pick our fresh produce? It is a nice idea in theory. I can give you a couple of bits of anecdotal evidence as to why there is resistance and why it is difficult. It is difficult, because it is very seasonal. It only lasts for a period of time. The seasons change depending on what the produce is. If you are going to move around to different growers, you will need to move around the country, so that is the other thing you will need to do.

There are not many people looking for part-time work that is very full-time for a short period of several weeks or maybe months in the year. It is hot, it is wet, it is cold, it is physically quite difficult, and it is highly skilled. As was alluded to earlier, the farms are often very remote, so you have to get to them. The seasonal labour brought in from abroad live on site; they live in caravans, up to six people in a mobile home at any given time. There are not many people who have grown up in our culture who are prepared to do that. It is a difficult one.

As a teenager, I picked tomatoes for a living, but I was lucky enough to live rurally and could get there on my bicycle. There were a lot of smaller growers at that time. That landscape has changed, and a lot of the smaller family legacies have now been bought out by much bigger organisations, so it is much harder to do that. Is it impossible? No, but it is harder to encourage people to do that kind of work.

I sat on the board of a fruit farm during the pandemic. When we could not get seasonal labour to pick the strawberry crop, we had a conversation about going to the local jobcentre and getting people who were furloughed. There were 70 British people on the Monday to come and pick produce. There were six by Tuesday morning, and on Wednesday there were none. That is the situation that we find ourselves in. It is not so easy to rectify.

Q136 Lord Sahota: Emma, what challenges face people from a diverse background in horticulture?

Emma Birkbeck: That is very difficult for me to answer. I am not aware of any. From my experience, it would be the rural locations of a lot of large growing nurseries now. It is part of a bigger question, actually. We are talking about horticulture as if it is all about growing and plants. I work in horticulture, and I sit in an office all day. I consider myself as working in horticulture because I supply horticultural products. There are supply chain roles across horticulture in which people, if you ask them what they do, probably do not even say they work in horticulture. They might work in the supply chain of the fresh produce part of a business. They might work in logistics. Those are careers that are open to everyone.

When I was going through the education system—I appreciate that it was a while ago—and we talked about careers, I do not remember anyone saying, “You could work in the supply chain. One of the options there could be horticulture”. Why we are not as diverse, whether that is with women or ethnically diverse backgrounds, is that we do not talk about horticulture as an industry that has different options in terms of career paths. We have a lot of people working in really high tech. I cannot talk about that; I can barely do a spreadsheet, but technology is a big part of horticulture now. Horticulture is quite progressive in a commercial sense, which would appeal to all sorts of people, but I do not think they know it is there. It comes right back to the education piece.

Kathryn Rossiter: I cannot talk generally about horticulture, but thinking about people who either work in or benefit from therapeutic horticulture, non-white British people are definitely in the minority. We do not have any current figures, but we estimate that the client groups coming through horticulture therapy are probably 4% to 8% lower than in society as a whole.

We do not at the moment have any real research or statistics to back up why that is, but on an anecdotal basis, speaking to people and to one of our trustees at Thrive, there are definitely perception barriers as opposed to anything more physical. Gardening is seen as a white, middle-class leisure activity, and for some ethnic backgrounds gardening is associated more with poverty and menial labour and so is not an attractive option. Those societal norms and cultural backgrounds will take time to break down. The best way to break them down is by getting young people involved at school and from that young age group building back up again.

I do not think there is anything inherent in horticulture that should prevent people going into it, because there are so many different things you can do with horticulture. Everybody has an interest and a different affinity for nature. That should be explored to find the element of horticulture that appeals to you, whether it is growing onions, growing daffodils, tree hugging or whatever you want to do. There is something that should appeal to everybody in some way.

Q137 Baroness Walmsley: Kathryn, what opportunities do you think the horticulture sector offers people with long-term illness or disabilities? Perhaps you could tell us what Thrive does. Can you also tell us what opportunities there are in the wider horticulture sector for people with those conditions?

Kathryn Rossiter: The value or the real potential of horticulture is that it is such a very wide field and has huge amounts of flexibility, and therefore it can be adapted and developed for everybody’s particular interest and benefit. At one level, we can get people doing what I would call self-directed gardening—gardening for themselves—because they want to take control of their health and well-being and to use gardening as a path that can do that. The more we can engage people in that, normalise gardening as part of health and well-being management, make it accessible, provide information in easily digestible forms, and take some of the mystery and the science out of it, the better.

A lot of gardening has a stigma attached to it when we use Latin names and talk about the correct ways of doing things. The correct way to do it is the way that works for you at the end of the day. If we can take away some of that mystery and stigma and get more people doing it, it would be a big plus. It is something that should be accessible to everybody, but there are people who need more help, support, guidance or supervision to be able to access the benefits that gardening can offer, and therefore we need to make sure that there are the mechanisms and processes in place to help people access those benefits. That is where horticulture therapy programmes come in, led by a trained practitioner who knows how to engage an individual in an activity in a way that is beneficial to that particular individual.

Each person who comes through our programmes will spend time with their practitioner talking about what it is they want to achieve by coming on a therapeutic horticulture programme. For some people, it may be their physical health or their mental health that they particularly want to work on. It could be social interactions, it could be an education need, or it could just be spending time in nature and benefiting from the in-the-moment calming effect of being in a green environment rather than in a sterile classroom or clinical environment.

Gardening works through three active processes: time in nature, time being active and being occupied, and time in a positive social environment. What we do in social and therapeutic horticulture is blend those three elements together through the medium of having a practitioner involved in the process. Just going out into your own garden and doing gardening will give you time in nature and give you time being active and occupied, but it is how you add the social element to make sure that it is a really positive social experience. Each of those three processes is valuable in its own right and equal, but they are also interdependent and mutually supportive; it is the way in which we bring them together and manipulate them that gives the added value.

Horticulture is the base, the platform, on which we build and add other processes. It draws a lot from occupational therapy and other person-centred care aspects. The difference is that the product of what we are doing is something that is alive and needs to continue to be nurtured and cared for. You could draw analogies between art therapy and what we do, but at the end of the day a piece of art is a piece of art; it is static. In horticulture therapy, we grow things that need ongoing care, support and nurturing, so there is quite a big difference, and the result of the therapy is part of the process.

The important thing about horticulture therapy is that it is multimodal and works in a very holistic way; it works on the whole person. You can emphasise the benefits for physical health, but you cannot also not get the mental health benefits and you cannot also not get the social benefits, so it works in a very holistic way for people. Being so hugely flexible, it can be adapted and amended for whatever the person’s interests and needs are. The skill of the practitioner is to be able to craft, to look at the garden and the tasks that need to be done in the garden, and not just make sure that those tasks get done but that they are done in a meaningful and inclusive way for the individuals in the group who are working in the garden.

Horticulture has the potential to be hugely beneficial right across the spectrum of our health. If you think about mental health, we can be using gardening and our own space and time to keep ourselves healthy and active, all the way through to somebody who has acute mental health problems and perhaps is in a secure unit. Horticulture therapy can be used very well in those settings to get people to start to work on their mental health. There is also quite a lot in between, and that is the bit that often gets missed.

We talk about the clinical side of horticulture therapy and we talk about people gardening in their own space and time, but we often forget that there are three or four other steps in between, which is where the specialist charities like Thrive come in. There are an awful lot of other organisations doing horticulture therapy around the country that are able to provide guided, facilitated and structured programmes that work on particular issues for individuals to make sure that they are being properly supported.

Baroness Walmsley: I have two very quick follow-ups. As you said, the product is alive rather than a piece of art, which is dead, so do you find that it helps to give people hope for the future? Has anybody gone through your programme and then found paid work in horticulture?

Kathryn Rossiter: Sorry, what was the first part of your question?

Baroness Walmsley: Does your programme give people hope for the future?

Kathryn Rossiter: Yes, definitely. That is one of the key reasons why horticulture works so well for people with mental health issues. It gives them hope for the future, and it puts them in a position of caring for something else rather than it just being about them. Growing something, nurturing something and being responsible for something is a huge element that wraps around the reason why it is successful.

In terms of going on to future employment, very much so. Part of what we and many other charities in this area do is to engage people not just in the horticulture for therapeutic element but to weave vocational qualifications through that. One programme that we run in London for people with mental health issues enables them to get a level 1 City & Guilds qualification in horticulture. We run that very much as a work-based programme and help them into employment or volunteering opportunities so that there is a pathway out of the programme at the end.

Q138 Lord Colgrain: My question summarises much of what the two of you and the previous panel have said. How could careers in horticulture be made more appealing to people of all backgrounds and abilities?

Emma Birkbeck: You are right; that builds very much on the previous panel. I work in West Sussex and I am from West Sussex. The West Sussex Growers’ Association has spent, and is spending, a lot of time looking at how we motivate the next generation in horticulture. There are a lot of groups now for young people. You have heard from some of them today. Maybe we should just package them and send them out on the road. They are a great advert for horticulture. They are our next generation fruit groups.

Part of it is about going out and educating in schools about the different careers in horticulture so that people from all walks of life in schools can see that. That is really important. My next comment mirrors some of what the previous panel talked about, which is about putting some younger and more diverse people in leadership roles in horticulture so that it is seen as a career. That is what we need to do. We need to educate.

Baroness Willis of Summertown: I am going to jump back to another question, but I want to slightly change it if that is okay. I completely agree with what you are both saying. We need to educate. We need more people to acknowledge horticultural therapy. Kathryn, you made a comment that I always hear about horticulture: “if people want to go tree hugging”. Even the phrase “tree hugging” carries with it all sorts of negative connotations.

How do we move horticulture, and horticultural therapy particularly, to be viewed as a serious alternative? You know its efficacy better than I do; horticulture can be just as effective as cognitive behavioural therapy. How are we going to get the medical profession, the economists and other people to pay proper salaries for it rather than just relying on volunteers, and start to move it into the scientific field and away from tree hugging?

Kathryn Rossiter: Part of the problem is that we tend to use the same terminology across a very big spectrum. We talk about gardening, which is what I do in my leisure time. It is mainly weed warfare, but it is called gardening. I love it. It makes me feel good at the end of the day. That is a world away from proper horticultural therapy in a secure unit with people with severe mental health issues, which is done in a controlled, facilitated, structured way and requires very key skill sets to be present. Knowing horticulture is a base level. You cannot do horticultural therapy if you do not know how to grow something, but it is so much more; there are so many more skills that are layered on top of that.

Part of the problem is that, when people see a group of people out in the garden and doing gardening, they cannot see all the other processes that are going on. You just see a group of people gardening. How do you, from an outside perspective, differentiate social gardening, a group of people coming together socially in a community garden doing a bit of guerrilla gardening and enjoying spending time in a garden together, and a properly structured, facilitated horticultural therapy programme that is run with a trained practitioner in place? From the outside, it all looks the same. There is a perception. We have to make clearer for people what we are doing.

One of the bits of work that I have been doing through the Therapeutic Horticulture Stakeholder Group, working with colleagues from Thrive and from further out in the industry, is to try to create a framework that gives us a more solid platform for explaining those differences. In the past, we have used social and therapeutic horticulture to mean everything from a bit of social gardening through to community-based structured programmes and hospital horticultural therapy.

There was a really good bit of work done by the Nottingham green social prescribing test and learn pilot site that took a model of mental health that uses five levels of mental health and related it to community provision of activities. We have taken that model and we have mapped on to it the details of how gardening can be used against those different levels. For level 0, which is somebody who is basically fit and well and taking control of their own mental health, there is no specific intervention that we need to make. It is about making gardening accessible and interesting to them. At the social gardening level, that can clearly have benefits of bringing people together in that social setting. There are still skills that you need to lead those social groups in terms of understanding how to get a positive social environment, as well as gardening and general health and safety.

As you move into what I would call the more core social and therapeutic horticulture, and enhanced STH, the levels of skills needed are greater. We need to be able not just to do health and safety in the garden, but to do task-based risk assessments and individual client-based risk assessments. We need to understand good safeguarding and have good policies in place, as well as the skills of person-centred care, layered on top of our horticulture skills.

I hope that the model that we are creating will give us a platform to be able to explain that not all gardening is the same. It may be based on horticulture, but we are using it in a very different way to achieve very different outcomes for people at different levels. It is work in progress, but I am happy to share the draft with you.

Baroness Willis of Summertown: Thank you. Emma, do you have any thoughts on this?

Emma Birkbeck: It is not an area I work in, but I have worked in the education sector. Coming back to your point earlier about whether the word “horticulture” is the problem, I think it might be, because the word “horticulture” covers so many vast areas. If I talk to somebody in the street and ask them if they want a career in horticulture, in their head it might be gardening, but for somebody else it might be big, commercial growing, and for somebody else it might be robotics and how we overcome picking fruit. How do we get people to take it seriously? We have to think about what it means and put a bigger label on to different parts of it.

Q139 The Chair: Thank you. I liked your expression “weed warfare”, Kathryn. My wife would call it slug slaughter. I have a final question. If you had a magic wand and there was one thing that you could get the Government to do or that you could request of the Government, what would it be?

Emma Birkbeck: To pay the same amount of attention to horticulture as they do to agriculture, and to make it clear that the growing of fruits and vegetables is not agriculture; it is a different thing. Ornamental horticulture is very important to us. Fresh produce is important for food security, but we still import a huge number of plants into the UK. If it had the same amount of importance as agriculture, maybe some of the diversity things might become easier to deal with.

Kathryn Rossiter: This is Mental Health Awareness Week. On the train I picked up a tweet from the Royal College of Psychiatrists that said that over 26,000 adults with severe mental illness are prematurely dying every year from preventable physical illness, which is quite an amazing statistic. We really need more people to be able to benefit from the holistic interventions that social and therapeutic horticulture can offer. Do not just see people as a physical health problem or a mental health problem, but treat the whole person. STH has the potential to support people through their whole life journey. It can provide treatment and it can provide the tools to maintain health and healthy lifestyles.

I would like to see the Government support properly funded community-based provision of social and therapeutic horticulture as part of personalised care and our health. Horticulture can make a huge contribution to our health, but it needs to go beyond green spaces and suitable careers. Within the sector, we are working hard to create a recognised profession. We are about to set up an association for STH in the UK to set clearer career pathways and to make sure that there are clearly set standards. What we really need is for the Government to recognise it and to take a holistic and joined-up perspective on health and well-being, and then to recognise the potential that social and therapeutic horticulture can play in that.

Baroness Fookes: That rather got thrown in at the end, but it sounds most intriguing. Could you provide a short supplementary brief on the work that you want to do?

Kathryn Rossiter: Relating to the association?

Baroness Fookes: Yes.

Kathryn Rossiter: Yes, I am more than happy to.

Baroness Fookes: And how it might interlink with the medical and other professions.

Kathryn Rossiter: We want social and therapeutic horticulture to be seen as a profession in its own right that draws from the skills of a number of different professions. Part of our problem is that we have never had a specific home. We are not really health, we are not really social care, we are not really occupational therapy, and we are not really horticulture. It merits being a profession in its own right, and therefore it needs an association in its own right.

We will use the Professional Standards Authority framework to do the structure for the association and set standards so that we can get to the point of having an accredited register of approved social and therapeutic horticulture practitioners. That would be a publicly available register for people who are employing practitioners or looking for careers in STH. There would be somewhere for them to go.

Baroness Fookes: Good luck.

Kathryn Rossiter: Thank you very much.

The Chair: Thank you very much for giving evidence today. That is the end of the session. It has been absolutely fascinating. We will be taking along many of your recommendations and putting them in the report that will be published at the end of the year. Thank you.