Examination of witnesses
Robert Goodwill MP and Nigel Gooding.
Q1 The Chairman: We have about a quarter of an hour left, so we will move on to overfishing and sustainable stocks.
Minister, the Committee, probably from before your appointment, has been particularly concerned about MSY. We are very aware that there is an obligation that stocks should be sustainable by 2020, which is not just a European thing; it is one of the UN Sustainable Development Goals. We were particularly concerned, as was pointed out strongly in your own briefings with some of the legislation, that the MSY stocks fell from 69% in 2018 to 59% in 2019. That shows that, at the point when we should be meeting our long-term sustainable goals, which would mean a vibrant fishing industry for the future, we actually moved backwards in the EU in the year before.
Given the fact that the UK has been in the vanguard of trying to get sustainable stocks in the long term and trying to make science more important than politics, and we have had a good role in that within the European Union, we were effectively complicit in that decision. On what grounds did we agree to that or were we part of that? When do we expect EU overfishing to end now, given the fact that we are not going to meet that goal in 2020?
Robert Goodwill MP: You refer to the science versus politics debates that happen every December in the Fisheries Council. The annual negotiations seek to integrate all the objectives found in the Common Fisheries Policy, which include achieving economic, social and employment benefits and contributing to food supplies. Reaching agreement requires compromise across the priorities of all Member States.
In autumn 2018, the combination of the scientific advice on the status of stocks, together with the first full year of implementation of the landing obligation from January 2019, resulted in substantial risk of choke for fisheries in the west of Scotland, the Irish Sea and the Celtic Sea. That choke risk was recognised by all Member States and the Commission. The UK sought to achieve an agreement that could mitigate the high risk of fisheries choking, while finding ways to allow stocks to recover.
The UK and Member States of the North Western Waters regional group also committed to develop a by-catch reduction plan to reduce fishing mortality in the five key stocks for which ICES had advised a zero catch in 2019: west of Scotland cod and whiting, Irish Sea whiting, Celtic Sea cod and plaice. There has been a reduction in the number of stocks that the UK has a primary economic interest in being fished at MSY levels in 2019, from 31 out of 45 in 2018, to 29 out of 49, which makes it harder to reach the 2020 target, but that needs to be considered in the light of its being the first year of full implementation of the landing obligation.
There has been substantial progress towards stocks being fished at MSY levels, and in recent years the overall trends are positive; only 25 stocks were set in line with MSY in 2019,[1] for example. In the context of the multiple objectives to be achieved, the UK considered that the final compromise text represented an acceptable outcome across the range of the UK’s negotiating priorities.
The factors contributing to the level of stock are not just about the level of fishing. They can be to do with recruitment of a particular species at a particular time, and there can be natural variation in populations due to factors other than fishing. It is often quite difficult to predict where stocks might be, because not all the parameters that would lead to stocks reaching MSY are in the control of politicians, or indeed of our fishing industry.
The Chairman: Would you summarise that by saying that the reason for the decline is primarily to try to get the landing obligation to work, which has a longer beneficial effect, or do you feel that in some ways it is a step backwards, as we would see it? Is the 2020 thing impossible, or do we still need to get there? It seems such a step backwards to us as a Committee; it is quite depressing, if I can say it in normal language. The landing obligation is a reason for maybe looking at all this again, but surely we should have done better than we did?
Robert Goodwill MP: The trend has been in the right direction in recent years. It is true that we have taken a step back, having made a number of steps forward. You are absolutely right that the landing obligation is the key tool that we will be able to use to ensure that we have healthier stocks in future. As I said in my opening remarks on this question, the Common Fisheries Policy does not just take account of the stocks in the sea; it takes account of the socioeconomic arguments made by a number of Member States.
It comes down to science versus politics; we have the science at one end and the industry at the other, and a compromise needs to be struck each year. As those compromises are struck, particularly when we have more control over our fisheries, I hope we can ensure that we get even more stocks up to MSY level. That will not just benefit the ecology of our seas; it will benefit the industry, which will then have a long-term future.
Viscount Hanworth: If we are to adhere to the definition of MSY that comes from the theory of ecological dynamics, to fish at MSY level is utterly perilous, because to exceed MSY for any length of time implies the extinction of the fish stock. I think what is going on is that there is not a very clear-headed view of ecological dynamics, and that has practical implications. To derive a certain harvest from a depleted stock requires a huge amount of effort; to derive the same harvest from an ample stock is much less costly. The emphasis on MSY, which is entirely misplaced, is leading us in the wrong direction. Nigel Gooding will be able to give an opinion on that. From the point of view of classical and simple ecological dynamics, it is nonsense to talk about fishing at the MSY.
The Chairman: Perhaps Mr Gooding could give us a brief answer, without going too far into a very complex issue.
Baroness Wilcox: You can say pass.
Nigel Gooding: I might have to say pass. The Government’s policy is to deliver on our responsibilities in the Common Fisheries Policy, which has a target of managing stocks at maximum sustainable yield. That is the policy we operate at the moment. There may be alternative targets that could be reached, such as maximum economic yield.
Viscount Hanworth: That would imply a far bigger stock.
Nigel Gooding: Yes, that is something that may be for the future. At the moment, we have the target of 2020, as the Committee said. I think the Commission itself has recognised that it is a target that will be difficult to deliver, not least because we do not have the science for all the stocks. When we look at reporting progress on meeting MSY, it is in relation to those with the science that supports the decision-making process. But there are some stocks for which we do not have the science, so we need to continue to work with scientists across the science community in Europe, to develop the science to support sustainable management of fisheries for all the stocks. That remains our aim.
We approach negotiations in the December Council by working on the basis of the science and what the science tells us about a stock. We also look at whether the science can be adjusted—for example, whether you can reach MSY in two years rather than one year. Those are some of the decisions that have been taken in the past.
Viscount Hanworth: Can I make one quick riposte?
Q2 Baroness Wilcox: No, you cannot, because I let you in on my question. What steps are being taken to end overfishing as soon as possible, apart from shooting anybody on a boat?
Robert Goodwill MP: Yes, or shooting seals, as my fishermen suggested to me. We will not even go there.
Despite the overall positive trend, progress in achieving MSY has not been as rapid as anticipated when the 2020 target was agreed. The EU acknowledged last year that ensuring that all total allowable catches are at MSY at all times is challenging, particularly in a mixed fishery, and it might not be possible to fish all stocks at MSY simultaneously for both biological and socioeconomic reasons.
Ambition remains high across Member States, and within the Commission, to continue to restore stocks, although progress has occurred at different rates in different regions. We anticipate that this continued ambition is likely to be reflected in the 2019 Commission policy statement for 2020, which will provide the context for the autumn negotiations to come. At this stage, it is not possible to predict their outcome. Once we are an independent coastal state, with many shared stocks with the EU, the UK will negotiate with the EU regarding setting TACs for those stocks. In that role, the UK will continue to engage constructively with the Commission and the EU Member States to ensure that all stocks are fished sustainably as soon as possible.
Baroness Wilcox: Thank you very much.
The Chairman: Thank you, Baroness Wilcox—an excellent intervention.
Lord Krebs: As I understand it, the efficiency of individual boats is increasing steadily over time. Does that imply to you that, over time, the number of fishermen and fishing vessels will have to decrease if we are to manage stocks sustainably?
Robert Goodwill MP: I suppose the short answer is yes. If boats are capable of catching more fish, fishermen will require fewer boats but there will be more horsepower and more capacity. With the under ten metre sector, the situation is not the same, and those vessels need to be considered separately. Indeed, we have been able to allocate extra quota to the under ten metre vessels, which I know are very important politically in certain parts of the country. This is not a new trend: boats have got bigger and the sonar has got better; the gear is getting much more effective—hopefully, selective, but more effective.
If you read Fishing News, you will see that every week new and bigger boats are being launched, particularly pelagic boats, which have tremendous potential for catching fish. When I was up at Peterhead, I heard how human hands had not touched the fish. Blue whiting are hoovered up, pumped into lorries and processed. It is industrial-scale fishing, which ensures continued efficiency improvements. The new boats have a much better quality of life for those working on them, particularly the overseas people, who spend a lot of time on the boats. We will see better technology and better boats, which will of necessity, I suspect, for the deep-sea fleet at least, mean fewer boats catching more fish.
The Chairman: Mr Gooding, do you want to come in briefly?
Nigel Gooding: We could write to the Committee about how we manage capacity within the fleet to stop the level of expansion of the fleet.
The Chairman: That would be very useful.
Robert Goodwill MP: Horsepower, for example, and engine size are restricted. We have had instances of fishermen changing the engines in their boats and being less than clear about the size of the new engine.
The Chairman: Surely not.
Q3 Lord Cameron of Dillington: I do not suppose that any of us believes that the EU is going to achieve its 2020 target for maximum sustainable yield. There has been a lot of talk this morning about when we have control of all our waters, post Brexit, but I would argue that there does not seem to be anything in the Fisheries Bill that achieves a target to eradicate overfishing, if not by 2020, certainly in the near future. Is that a gap that can be remedied?
Robert Goodwill MP: Obviously, there will be an opportunity to table amendments in your House, my Lords. The Fisheries Bill is about creating the framework within which we can build a successful industry, and that can be built only if we have sustainable stocks, and fishing that is not overfishing and not causing stocks to be depleted or, indeed, crash. We need to be aware that the majority of our species are in mixed fisheries. That is what presents the problems.
On my farm, we have all the sheep in one field and all the cattle in the other field. If we had that for fish, it would be very easy, but with mixed fisheries we have to have compromises. There is the problem of by-catch of the wrong species, which is not the species that the vessel is going after. That is why the landing obligation is the way forward.
As an independent coastal state, the landing obligation will be central to the way we move forward. We cannot go back to the days when fish of the wrong species, undersized or juvenile fish are discarded. Indeed, perfectly marketable fish were thrown over the side because a bigger fish had just been caught. We cannot go back to those days. That is why the Common Fisheries Policy has been so discredited, not only in the industry but in the population as a whole. It was a key issue in the referendum campaign.
As I said at the start, there are many pros and cons in leaving the European Union, not least for my own industry—agriculture—where there will be a lot of cons, if we are not careful. But from the fisheries point of view there are tremendous opportunities as an independent coastal state, working with our other coastal partners, including the EU, to ensure that we can build sustainable stocks and get as many species as possible, as quickly as possible, up to MSY.
The Chairman: You do not think that we are likely to have a Government amendment, which often happens at this end, replicating the 2020 obligation. I suppose that is part of our Sustainable Development Goals under our UN agreement as well.
Robert Goodwill MP: I think we need to make progress as quickly as is possible within the other constraints placed on us. As I mentioned, the CFP does not just talk about that; if people just wanted to build up stocks, they could tie up every single boat in the European Union and stocks would build. We need to ensure that we take account of the socioeconomic realities of some of our coastal towns and some of our important industries, and the supply chains and markets that are reliant on having stocks available to meet those particular markets.
It is also about exploiting markets around the world. I was reading the other day that whelks are now being exported in possibly unsustainable numbers to South Korea. There are tremendous opportunities around the world. If we can ensure that fishing is carried out sustainably, we have a great future.
The Chairman: Minister, thank you very much, and thank you, Mr Gooding, for your evidence.
