HOUSE OF LORDS
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
taken before the
STANDING ORDERS (PRIVATE BILLS) COMMITTEE
on the
HIGH SPEED RAIL (CREWE - MANCHESTER) BILL: ADDITIONAL PROVISION
27th October 2022
Before:
Lord Gardiner of Kimble (The Chair)
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
Lord Geddes
Lord Jones
Lord McColl of Dulwich
Lord Naseby
PAUL IRVING, of WINCKWORTH SHERWOOD LLP, appeared as parliamentary agent for the Bill.
ALISTAIR DAVIE, Head of Powers and Consents, HS2 LTD.
(10.30 am)
1. THE CHAIR: Good morning. This session is now in public. Welcome to this meeting of the Standing Orders (Private Bills) Committee, which has been convened to consider the Examiners’ certificate relating to the additional provision to the High Speed Rail (Crewe - Manchester) Bill. Do any members of the Committee have any interests to declare? They have indicated that they do not.
2. The Examiners’ certificate states that certain private business Standing Orders have not been complied with. Our task is to decide whether to dispense with those Standing Orders. We understand that the House of Commons Standing Orders Committee has already met and decided in favour of dispensing. We have received and read a statement from the promoter, and I would like the statement to be read into the record.
3. Mr Irving, I warmly welcome you. I would much welcome it if you introduced yourself. I am mindful of the numbers here, but if you wish to introduce any of those who are accompanying with you, you are welcome to do so. Then I would like you to speak to the promoter’s statement.
4. PAUL IRVING: My name is Paul Irving and I am the parliamentary agent for the Bill. In view of the numbers of people behind me, perhaps I will not introduce everyone on this occasion. You have seen our statement, which sets out the Standing Orders for which non-compliance was found and our grounds for seeking a dispensation for compliance. I was not going to elaborate any further on that unless you would like me to do so, but I am happy to answer any questions you may have.
5. THE CHAIR: Yes, obviously we have seen the statement, but a number of members of the Committee would like to ask some questions.
6. BARONESS FINLAY OF LLANDAFF: I was wondering whether the mystery-shopper exercise, which revealed the failure to display in two libraries, was a mandatory part of your contractual obligation or whether it is something that you did out of good practice in order to check up but it was not in your contractual obligation.
7. PAUL IRVING: The mystery shopper exercise is not a requirement of the Standing Orders and is not something that we are obliged to do. It was done out of good practice, as you say, to give the Examiners some assurance that the local authorities had actually complied with their obligations to make things available for inspection.
8. BARONESS FINLAY OF LLANDAFF: Could you then tell us what the nature of the contract was with the people who did the mystery shopping? It seems as if they did not report back, and I was not clear from the papers whether they were employed by the original contractors or whether that was sub-contracted out to another organisation.
9. PAUL IRVING: I may need to ask one of my colleagues behind me to elaborate further on that, but I imagine the position is that the mystery shopper exercise was carried out by the land referencers under a contract with High Speed 2 Ltd. Perhaps my colleague could answer this.
10. ALISTAIR DAVIE: I am the head of powers and consents at High Speed 2 Ltd. It is my role, with my team, to ensure that the Bill and any additional provisions are assembled properly, compliant with Standing Orders and then deposited according to Parliament’s rules.
11. The mystery shopper work is conducted by contractors working for HS2 who also conduct land referencing, access and survey work for HS2. As Mr Irving said, the mystery shopping exercise is not strictly required by Standing Orders, but it is part of our reasonable inquiries to ensure that they are complied with. This is principally because HS2 Ltd has no authority over statutory bodies to ensure that their duties are complied with in this area.
12. However, the onus is on us to ensure that Standing Orders are complied with in the right way, so we conduct follow-up exercises with mystery shoppers. If necessary, we can inquire with deposit locations directly to ensure that the required material is displayed and accessible. We do that throughout an extended period following deposits to make sure that we are fully compliant with Standing Orders and that the public have appropriate access to all of the deposited material.
13. BARONESS FINLAY OF LLANDAFF: Is it a requirement that there is a display in every library in all of the localities that may be affected by the works?
14. PAUL IRVING: No, there is no requirement for that. We have gone beyond the requirements of the Standing Orders, which are to make these documents available at local authority offices in each of the areas affected. They remained available at the local authority offices in Manchester throughout the period. We put them in these additional libraries to be helpful to people; it was not a Standing Order requirement.
15. THE CHAIR: It is very helpful to have that clarification.
16. LORD GEDDES: I apologise if I missed this in your statement of facts, but did the mystery shopper go elsewhere and find that Standing Orders had been complied with?
17. ALISTAIR DAVIE: Yes, the mystery shopping is quite an extensive activity that visits a wide range of deposit locations—all of them, if possible. If items are missing or notices are not displayed, we return and follow up. The purpose of conducting the exercise is to make sure that we are compliant with Standing Orders and that a wide range of notices and materials is displayed, beyond their requirements.
18. LORD NASEBY: I recognise the historic importance of the word “Crewe” in relation to anything to do with railways. Paragraphs 160 and 161, and the attachment drawing attention to the project, say that the local authorities were not terribly helpful and indicated that they did not want anything on their road signs that might divert the attention of a driver. So were the local authorities pretty co-operative, with a couple of isolated issues, or was there a degree of resistance from them that made it more burdensome for you, who are trying to communicate with the general public about vital infrastructure in that part of the country?
19. ALISTAIR DAVIE: My experience is that local authorities are generally compliant and that, where there are issues, it is a matter of local misunderstanding about their duties. There does not appear to be a general resistance. We follow up to ensure that we are fully compliant and the public are as informed as they can be. We have discovered through our own inquiries, where we have contacted deposit locations or local authorities directly, that, where we have persistent issues, there is generally a misunderstanding of their duties. Once they have been explained, we have often followed up with both formal correspondence and telephone calls and those issues have been resolved.
20. LORD NASEBY: You talked about the general. I am not interested in that; I am interested in the specific. Did you resolve that issue in relation to the area where this railway runs?
21. ALISTAIR DAVIE: I am not aware of any specific resistances that were unable to be resolved.
22. THE CHAIR: Reflecting on the responses we have had, the Committee is obviously familiar with the concept of non-compliance solely as to time; it arises simply because of a certain date set out in the Standing Orders that are applicable to private Bills but cannot apply to hybrid Bills.
23. The Committee is also content with the explanations in relation to the additional breach of Standing Order 4. We agree that it is therefore unnecessary for the Committee to go into private session. We agree that all Standing Orders referred to in the examiner’s certificate—namely Standing Orders 4, 4A, 10, 10A, 11, 12, 12A, 13, 27, 27A, 34, 36, 39, 41, 45 and 47—should be dispensed with. The decision of the Committee will be reported to the House in today’s minutes of proceedings and will be posted on the Committee’s website.
24. I would like to thank those who have attended today, in particular Mr Irving and his colleague for answering our questions. The Committee stands adjourned.
The Examination was adjourned at 10.42 am.