Joint Committee on Human Rights
Oral evidence: Youth detention: Solitary confinement and restraint, HC 994
Wednesday 12 September 2018
Members present: Ms Harriet Harman (Chair); Fiona Bruce; Ms Karen Buck; Joanna Cherry; Baroness Hamwee; Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon; Jeremy Lefroy; Lord Trimble; Lord Woolf.
Questions 37–48
Witness
“William” (accompanied by a supporting witness)
Any public use of, or reference to, the contents should make clear that neither Members nor witnesses have had the opportunity to correct the record. If in doubt as to the propriety of using the transcript, please contact the Clerk of the Committee.
The transcript has been edited by Committee staff to remove information that might identify the witness or the institutions involved.
Q37 Chair: We are the Joint committee on Human rights, so our concern is exclusively about human rights for people in this country. Half the members of the Committee are from the House of Lords and half are from the House of Commons. One of the human rights that we are looking into is the situation of people in Young Offenders’ Institutions, particularly the use of solitary confinement and restraint. Before I invite other Committee members to ask you their questions, could you help to set the scene by saying a bit about what the Young Offenders’ Institution that you were in was like? Was it large? How far away was it from your home or your family? What was a typical day like? What did you do when you were outside your room, and what was it like? Were you just in one, or a number of different ones?
"William": I spent three years in youth custody. I got a 12-year sentence and I did six. I went to jail when I was 16. When I turned 18 I went to another young offender institution, which was quite far from my family.
Chair: What did you do on a normal day?
"William": Day to day, if you are employed you go to education from 9 am to 12 pm, then you come back and get banged up for an hour and a half. From 1.30 pm to 4.30 pm you go out again, and you might get association from 5 pm till 6 pm. But if you are unemployed, like most people, you will be banged up all day, and then you get association at the end of the day for an hour and a half. The older I got, the more time that I got out of my cell.
Chair: How much did you feel was focused on punishing you by keeping you out of society, and how much did you feel was focused on rehabilitation, education and thinking ahead to your future outside prison? How did you feel the staff managed all that? Did they have enough time to be dealing with that?
"William": I got nine GCSEs, I am quite smart, but, especially when I was in that youth offender institution when I was 16 to 18, the education that was directed to us was primary school level, maybe year 7 or 8 stuff—simple maths. Saying that, a lot of people struggled with reading and writing. There was not a lot of stuff that catered to me, so I did not like going to education because I was not learning anything new. I know 10 x 10 and I know how to write, and whatever. There was nothing to push people like me—“Oh, you’ve done x, y and z, how about doing this? This might help you”. I was just in the system. If I wanted to learn, I would, and if not then I could just muck around. I could be on the servery or be a cleaner, but there was nothing focused on me to learn a new skill or elevate me. If you get assigned, you get assigned.
Q38 Fiona Bruce: I have a few questions to ask you about how you and other young men felt about being there. First, could you describe the attitudes and behaviour of some of the young men who were there with you, and your own, about being there?
"William": I was not a gang member. Crime was not a thing that I had known. I come from a stable background. Mum and Dad are married, I have siblings, I go to church and I am smart. I just got involved in something and ended up in prison. But some people there, all they know is crime, they glorify it and they love it. For some people it is a rite of passage: “I’m in jail, I’m going to try and be the biggest and baddest”. It is a mixture of things. Nobody wants to be there, but people just try to make the most of it.
Fiona Bruce: So would you say that some of the young people were difficult for staff to manage?
"William": Some people in cells would smash up TVs, go on dirty protests, do whatever and just be a total pain. When they are a total pain, that distracts attention from everyone else, so we would be banged up because of somebody else’s nonsense. There are a lot of difficult prisoners so I was kind of empathetic to the fact that the staff had to deal with them, but we suffered a lot because of those difficult prisoners. One guy could take away 10 officers because they had to calm him down.
Fiona Bruce: So that was not behaviour that you were involved in, but obviously there were repercussions for you.
"William": I felt like, “I’m already in prison”. When I was in youth custody you were not allowed to smoke, so people used to get tobacco from the older guys on the other side. They used to light up their tobacco through the electrics, but when that goes wrong it could blow up 10 people’s electrics. So you could be in your cell with no kettle, no TV and no power, and that is all you have. You are going to be angry at the guy who has blown the electrics but when you ask, “Officer, can you help me out?” you get the answer, “I can’t do nothing”. So then you are angry at the geezer who has blown the electrics and the fact that no one is doing anything about it.
Fiona Bruce: That is very interesting. Were there other situations that you felt were unfair on you?
"William": Definitely. When there was a big influx of prisoners, we were not allowed out as much.
Fiona Bruce: So you have described how you felt this was unfair. How did you react to the officers or to others?
"William": I am quite a calm person, so I took it in my stride, really, but then there would be people shouting out abuse and banging their doors all day and screaming. There is nothing you can do except just listen and hope for the best.
Fiona Bruce: Thank you very much indeed.
Q39 Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: You have talked a lot about the staff and the difficulty that they had. When all these things were happening, did they try to reason with you? From what I am hearing, the trouble that was happening in there did not concern you, but others who were doing the things to take away the officers from the rest of you so that you were more banged up. Did they give reasons why these things were happening? Did they come back to you and explain that you had all been locked up again because of the difficulties they were having?
"William": It depends on the officer. I could have a good relationship with an officer and say, “Guv, what’s going on?” and he could tell me, “It’s X, Y and Z”, but most of them do not feel that they owe me an explanation. They will not tell me that I am banged up because something is happening. They will not tell you that you are banged up because prisoner X has done something or something is happening. It is about relationships with officers. Some would tell you, some would not.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: What restraint did they use? Were you restrained at any time?
"William": I was restrained three times as a juvenile. The first time I got restrained was literally for no reason. There was a fight between two prisoners. No officers were around but two people were fighting. It was not my job to stop it. Five of us were watching but one guy was beating the other guy up really badly, so I thought I would get involved. I grabbed the aggressor and the others grabbed the other guy, but when this happened, an officer pressed the alarm bell, which means that officers from other units come to assist. When they have come and seen me with one of the guys trying to fight me off to go to the other guy, they thought that I was fighting. I said, “I’m not involved, I’m not fighting”, but then they reacted and messed me up. I was telling them, “I’m not involved”, and the guy was saying, “He’s not involved”, but they still restrained me.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: How did they restrain you? There are many different methods of restraining an individual, as we have heard.
"William": They put me on the floor; I was tackled to the floor. While I was on the floor, there was one on my left arm and one on my right, and one over me. They told me to get up slowly, so there was one holding my head, one holding my arm and one holding my other arm. They were telling me to walk but as I was walking, I could not really walk, so they were telling me to stop resisting. How can I resist when I am in such a lock? The more I tried to walk, the more force they used, telling me “Don’t resist”. Then they carried me up the stairs. One guy had my head, one guy had my left arm and one guy had my other arm so I was taking baby steps. They were telling me, “Don’t resist”, but I could not fight the three of them. I am 16; I am not the biggest. That was how they got me.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: When they were doing all this restraint, did they explain to you why and how they were doing it? Did they say anything?
"William": Not at all. They just heard the alarm bell, saw me and restrained me. They did not say, “We’re restraining you because we believe you were in a fight”. They just did what they did.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: At the end of that, were you physically hurt?
"William": I do not have scars or bruises to show for it, but I was in pain.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: How did that make you feel emotionally? How do you feel at the end of all that has happened to you?
"William": This was in my first couple of weeks in prison. I was just taking everything in, as well as this. I felt like I was in for a long road, if this was happening to me when I had not done anything. I just thought, “Wow”. I was not angry. I was just in shock, really.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: While you are in there, do you get visitors? Were you able to tell anyone about what happened?
"William": I would not tell my mum because she would worry. I told my little brother; I do not think that he was old enough to understand, really. My mum was already worried about me so me telling her, “By the way, mum, I got a restraint”, would just heighten her anxiety. I just thought, “No”.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: You said that you were restrained three times. Were there differences between the first and the last times you were restrained?
"William": Yes. The first restraint was the worst restraint. For the second restraint, I was involved in a fight so they were just stopping the both of us. I was not put in a lock. I was just grabbed and put away. The third time was similar, but the first was the worst.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: So after you were locked up, how long were you locked in your cell for?
"William": The first time? I was put away but as an enhanced prisoner.[1] I was working in the servery and doing all right. Then they would not let me out to work, because they said I was a risk; I was fighting. So after my adjudication—when something bad happens, you get an adjudication and you have to sit in front of the governor and plead your case—I was charged with having a fight. When they saw the CCTV, I explained it. I got found guilty on the basis that I should not have got involved because it was not my job. I lost the TV and gym. I was thinking, “I got involved to stop a fight and they still found me guilty”. It shows me grabbing the guy and pushing but I should have waited for the officers. Fair enough.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: How long did you lose those things for?
"William": I got seven days losses of TV, gym and a 50% loss on my canteen.
Chair: They had you up for an adjudication, but is there any complaints system? The people in the prison are doing the adjudication, yes?
"William": By the time the complaint had come back, I had already served my time. If I had got block or solitary confinement, by the time I would have come out, my complaint would have been dealt with. How do I get back the time I spent in solitary? I was not going to get it back.
Chair: So who would you complain to? Did you know about the complaints system? Did anybody ever complain? Did anybody every have a complaint upheld? Was it just something that people thought was pointless?
"William": I thought it was pointless with regards to certain things, but there was a normal complaint procedure and an independent complaint procedure. You could escalate it. I just thought it was just lots of paperwork. I only complained about things that I thought would be dealt with. I do not see how it was going to happen for me getting a restraint. What was going to happen? They were going to say, “We believe that reasonable force was used because of X, Y and Z”. Then, what next? Even if they uphold it, what am I going to get? A sorry. It is too late.
Chair: So you felt resentful, basically, that this was not fair?
"William": I would not say resentful, but being in prison, knowing that you are not in control, you take a lot of things in your stride. I just saw it as part and parcel. It happened; I had to just move on. I should not feel like that but that was how I felt. I am banged up because this has happened or I missed this because something happened. Whether I cry, shout or laugh, it will not change anything.
Q40 Ms Karen Buck: Before I ask you a few questions about solitary, you described the fights. Is there an extent to which the level of staffing in the different institutions you were in was enough to be able to intervene quickly and stop people from fighting?
"William": There were two officers for 30 young people. If there is a big fight, there are two officers and all they can do is press the bell and wait for help. By the time that happened, though, it could be a bloodbath. I do not think that there are enough officers.
Ms Karen Buck: Did you think things would get out of hand more than they should have done because there were not enough people to intervene quickly?
"William": Definitely.
Ms Karen Buck: And that ends up with the kind of trouble that you described?
"William": Definitely.
Ms Karen Buck: You used a word to describe solitary confinement.
"William": Block.
Ms Karen Buck: Block. That is how it is described?
"William": Yes.
Ms Karen Buck: Doreen has asked you a bit about restraint. How much did that happen to you and how much was it used, generally?
"William": Getting restrained?
Ms Karen Buck: No, the block.
"William": Oh. They could put you in the block for anything, really.
Ms Karen Buck: And how much did they?
"William": To me personally?
Ms Karen Buck: Yes, to you personally first, and then maybe you could tell us what you saw of other people’s experiences.
"William": As I said, I was lucky enough not to spend that much time but I spent maybe 23 or 24 days on block throughout my whole sentence.
Ms Karen Buck: Roughly how often did it happen?
"William": I did a stint of 13 days, then two days. Just small little stints, but it could be for anything. I was caught with a phone once on block and they gave me 21 days. I thought, “Why would that need 21 days in segregation”. I know I broke the rules and was wrong but 21 days in solitary confinement is not like a walk in the park.
Ms Karen Buck: Was it understood then that if you broke particular rules in particular ways you would get a particular length of time on block? Was it applied very consistently so that people really knew what the punishment was going to be?
"William": No. It depends on the governor. For one offence you could get losses or time on block, or they could even call on an outside adjudicator to give you extra days. It all depends on the governor, who decides on your case. If it was a fight, they could give you loss of canteen or it might be five extra days or time on block. It was not a case of “This offence carries this punishment”.
Ms Karen Buck: What did you and other people feel about that? Did you feel that it was really not fair how these punishments were applied?
"William": Definitely, especially if someone has a good record. He or she might be enhanced, doing well on the wing and never in trouble, but then they do one thing and they will give you 20 days on block.
Ms Karen Buck: What is it like being on block?
"William": It is not for the weak-minded, and it also depends what block you’re on. There were a lot of young boisterous guys. Some are happy to be there. There could be two guys from rival gangs who have a fight and they are put on block, but I could be on block for something completely different. All night those two guys are arguing out the window and I am trying to sleep. They shout, “You X, you this, you that”. There are people with mental health problems. It is not nice.
Ms Karen Buck: I was going to ask you about that. Did you get a sense that vulnerable young people would be on block and that their needs and vulnerability were considered properly before they were put in solitary?
"William": I do not think that they are considered. It is a case of, “You’ve done this”, or, “We believe you’ve done this and we’re going to put you in solitary”. There are even people who have run into so much debt that the safest place for them is block. They have done nothing wrong but because they are in so much trouble they are put on block, and then it is literally 23 and a half hours with a toilet and sink. I used to get 25 minutes to walk around the exercise yard and five minutes to make a phone call or shower, and then I would be back in my cell. I would get my dinner, then come out and I would get a book to read and I would be back in there.
Ms Karen Buck: As you come to the end of that, particularly the occasion when you were in there the longest, how do you feel about it?
"William": I was 19 when I got 21 days, so I was not so young. I only served 13 or 14 days because my next-door neighbour OD’d on some pills and he passed away, so they wanted to let people out. How do such things happen on block?
Ms Karen Buck: He had some pills?
"William": Yes, he overdosed on pills and Spice and so on.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: How do they get the pills?
"William": I haven’t got a clue, but he was next door to me and then he died.
Ms Karen Buck: Do people talk to you about any of this? Do any discussions ever take place about how you feel—whether you are feeling very vulnerable or whether you can manage being on block?
"William": You mean therapy?
Ms Karen Buck: Therapy at one end, but do any of the staff just check on you and make sure that you are all right?
"William": When you are on block, if you are Muslim then maybe the Imam might come and say, “How are you?”, or whatever. But other than that, they do not ask you, “How are you? Are you all right today?”
Ms Karen Buck: Never?
"William": It is rare. They do not ask you every day how you are doing. It is just exercise, shower, phone call, there is a letter for you or a newspaper, or go and get your dinner. It depends on the officer. I am not going to paint everyone with the same brush. Some officers do care. Some of them go out of their way to try to help and make sure that you are all right, but the majority of the time it is just a job for them. They have to open and close doors and so on.
Ms Karen Buck: As far as you are aware, there is no policy to check on you and make sure that you are all right, and to review your condition.
"William": Not that I remember. I have been checked on but I do not know whether there is a policy that says, “You have to check William to see if he’s all right or not”. They might feel that I am a suicide risk and then they would check me every half an hour or hour.
Ms Karen Buck: Some people will be in that position.
"William": Yes, but if you are just a normal guy who has done something wrong, they just think, “He’ll be all right. He’s on block”.
Ms Karen Buck: Does it work?
"William": I do not think so. I think that it works if you want it to work. If people who have done 30 or 40 days on block come out and see someone they do not like, they do not think, “If I fight with this guy, I’ll go back on block”. They think, “I need to fight this guy”. So they fight the guy and go back on block.
Ms Karen Buck: You saw that happen?
"William": All the time. People would be in and out of block to the point where they might be shipped out to another prison and start afresh. I do not like block, so for me it is a deterrent, but most people think, “I’ll take it on the chin”.
Ms Karen Buck: Was there anybody you knew for whom block was a refuge—a way of keeping away from violence? Did people ever use it in that way?
"William": Not as a refuge, but it all depends. People get into a lot of debt through drugs and the canteen and so on. They might feel like block is the safest place for them or they might have so many problems in the jail that maybe that is the best place for them, but that is kind of rare.
Q41 Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: You mentioned debt. I did not understand. What do you mean by debt?
"William": From drugs or phones. I do not know whether you know about Spice. People would get Spice off prisoners and I would say, “I’ll get my girlfriend to transfer you the money”. I might say, “You get Spice, you get Spice and you get Spice”, to people who are all on the same wing, then when I go to another wing I do the same thing, but you are going to tell your mate on this wing, “He owes me Spice”. If that happens, I will think, “The best thing for me is to run away—go to block—because the whole jail is on me, so I can’t be here”. Or in the canteen people do double-bubble—I might give you one Kit Kat but I need two Kit Kats next week. I might say, “You know what, I won’t be able to come, so I’ll give you four the week after”. It accumulates and accumulates. Or I might have a phone, which I lend you. You might get spied by the officers and they take the phone. I have lost my phone, so you have to give me about £400. There is a lot of debt in prison.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: You talked about working. Do you get paid?
"William": Yes, you get paid for work.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: How much do they pay you?
"William": It depends where you work. I worked in the officers’ mess. I served officers their lunch and dinner. That was the best job. I was getting about £11 or £12 a week.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: So there is no way you can accumulate up to £400 to pay for a phone.
"William": No. For that, you would have to phone your people outside and tell them to do a bank transfer. So the phone or the money would not come from me personally; it might come from my mum or someone else.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: So they would have to make a bank transfer to another prisoner?
"William": Yes.
Chair: Is there a lot of pressure on the families of the people inside to pay for these things?
"William": One hundred per cent.
Chair: And they are worried that if they do not, there will be repercussions?
"William": One hundred per cent.
Chair: It’s about snacks like chocolate and it’s about drugs.
"William": Most of the time it is about drugs.
Fiona Bruce: Just to clarify, the threat is that if they do not pay, the repercussion will be violence against you in prison.
"William": Yes, or maybe worse, but most of the time it was violence in prison.
Fiona Bruce: What would be worse?
"William": It could be worse, like, “I saw you write to your girlfriend and I’ve seen her address”. But most of the time it is, “I’m going to do you”.
Q42 Jeremy Lefroy: Was there much activity over weekends at all?
"William": Weekends are always like a restricted regime, so it would be like, if you’re lucky enough to get a gym, you might get a gym. If not, it’s an association for maybe one hour or two hours and then that’s it.
Jeremy Lefroy: Over the whole weekend?
"William": For two hours a day. Saturday might be from 10 to 12, then you’re banged up until 4.30, you get your dinner and then you’re banged up again. Then, on Sunday, you might have an association from 2 to 4, but it depends. Different jails have different regimes. The older I got, the more time I got out of my cell. As a juvenile, I spent a lot of time behind my door.
Jeremy Lefroy: And what about visits from family? How often could you have them?
"William": Personally?
Jeremy Lefroy: Yes.
"William": When I was closer [to home], when I first went in I could get visits twice a week, then I would get two or three a month. When I went up [to another YOI], it was whenever they could, because it’s like a day trip for them—it’s the whole day.
Jeremy Lefroy: How were your friends or family who were visiting? How were they treated as visitors?
"William": I do not think they had adverse experiences. My brother does not like dogs, so if a dog went to search him, he might jump up a bit and then he might get a bit of attitude from an officer. But you can’t win, because they could stop the visit, so you have to comply.
Fiona Bruce: What is the toughest thing about being in prison?
"William": My family, really. Missing my mum, my brother and my sisters. I could do it, I was okay, but they were worried about me. I was like, “I’m actually okay”. I was just always reassuring them that I was okay.
Fiona Bruce: How were you changed by the circumstances that you have described?
"William": I feel like I became, I wouldn’t say angrier, but I have more edge to me. I was quiet, a bit laissez-faire, but now there’s more edge to me.
Fiona Bruce: If there were some key things that you could suggest that would have improved your circumstances, what would they have been?
"William": More empathy. Granted, I may have committed an offence or got involved in something, but it doesn’t mean that I’m a monster. I am a human being; everybody makes mistakes. I’m not saying that I shouldn’t be punished, but don’t assume that I am a bad, bad person—I’m not.
Chair: You know that the theory is supposed to be that the punishment takes you away from society; it is not what is supposed to be happening inside the institution. Did you feel that that was what it was like? It was just taking you out of society, or did you think that there was additional punishment inflicted in there? Or did it just depend on the officers and what was going on?
"William": It depends on the officers. I was in prison, so it wasn’t like I was allowed to do whatever. I was banged up most of the day. So yes, I was punished while I was in there as well.
Q43 Joanna Cherry: Can I ask you about the times that you were restrained? You told us that about three times you were restrained. The first time was when you in fact intervened in a fight and then the second and third occasions you were involved in a fight yourself. Can you think of anything different that could have been done on those three occasions, rather than restraining you? Was there any other method that the officers could have taken to deal with the situation?
"William": The first time that I was restrained, I literally just let go of the guy and said “I’m not involved”, but they still restrained me and put me on the floor. I don’t see why I needed to be restrained. Say, I’m fighting the guy, but I have let go of him, why am I getting restrained? I don’t need to be. Escort me back to my cell or whatever, but don’t restrain me.
The other two times, I would say that they were right. They stopped the fight and put me over here and the other guy over there. So it was just the first time that they did not need to restrain.
Joanna Cherry: I think you said that the first time was the worst. The second two times were not as tough. You described the first time: you were put down on the floor and there was an officer on each arm and an officer on your head. Were they pressing down?
"William": Not pressing down. They were standing over me, just making sure that I wasn’t going to get up.
Joanna Cherry: Then you described being taken along and that it was really hard for you to walk. They were treating you as if you were refusing to co-operate, but in fact you were trying.
"William": I was trying to walk.
Joanna Cherry: What about the other two occasions? In what way did they differ from that occasion in the manner of the restraint?
"William": Maybe because I expected to get restrained, I put myself in a position where they couldn’t restrain me. By backing off and saying “I’m okay”, and so on.
Joanna Cherry: On those two other occasions, did they put you down on the ground?
"William": No.
Joanna Cherry: Can you describe what happened and how you were restrained on the second and third occasions?
"William": When I say “restrained”, it was just about breaking up the fight and holding me so I didn’t try to fight over them—grabbing me and trying to push me away. If I was still trying to be the aggressor, they would have got on to me.
Joanna Cherry: It is puzzling though, because the first time it happened, you were quite young and a pretty new prisoner. Had you been in trouble before that occasion?
"William": I was not enhanced; I was just working in the servery, serving everyone.
Joanna Cherry: Would you be able to help us to understand what it was that made them restrain you in a more forceful fashion on the first occasion?
"William": I think it was because they did not see what happened. They just came on to the wing and saw me with the guy, but I had let go and said that I wasn’t involved. That alone should have told them that I wasn’t involved, so why restrain me in the same way?
Joanna Cherry: You would have liked them to have listened to you when you said that you were not involved?
"William": 100%.
Joanna Cherry: When you come in on a fight, I suppose a lot of people would stand back and say, “It’s nothing to do with me”.
"William": Granted, but why do you need to restrain me when there is nothing going on? If I am not engaging in violence and neither is he, then why do we get restrained?
Joanna Cherry: So were you pulling one of the guys off?
"William": I pulled the guy off, I was holding him and he was trying to get off me to go to the other guy. When they came on to the wing, they just saw me holding the guy. But when they came, I said that I wasn’t involved. He didn’t swing for me and I didn’t swing for him, but they still restrained me.
Q44 Chair: Did you say they had CCTV? Where was this happening and why was there not an officer keeping an eye on the situation? How come there were prisoners all on their own together but without any supervision?
"William": The way the wing is, an officer is not going to be able to see everything. It was near the showers—I can’t explain it. We were there, and the officer was at the end of the room, but there was a little block, so she couldn’t see what was happening.
Chair: With the sightlines.
"William": Yes. She could not see what was happening. She heard a lot of footsteps and noise and that’s when she came out to press the bell. When the officers came on to the wing and saw me and the aggressor, they thought that was the fight.
Chair: And there is no one sitting there at some remote CCTV watching all the time in case a fight breaks out?
"William": No. I do not think so, anyway.
Q45 Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: The two were in a fight when you and someone else started pulling them apart. What happened to those guys who first started the fight?
"William": In the first fight?
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: Yes, the first time you were restrained. What happened to the guys who started the fight in the first place?
"William": The first guy, the guy who I was holding up, they stood with him, they restrained me and he was pulled away by the other prisoners. I got restrained by myself.
Joanna Cherry: So you were the only one who got restrained?
"William": Yes, and I was not in the fight.
Joanna Cherry: Do you have any view on why they picked on you for restraint and not the others?
"William": I do not have a clue.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: Were you bigger than the others?
"William": I was taller, but I was quite skinny.
Q46 Joanna Cherry: Can I ask you about when you go for the adjudication with the governor? Do you have anyone to support the case you are making for yourself, or do you get to call any witnesses?
"William": I think you are allowed to call witnesses and stuff, but as I said I was quite new to prison, so I did not really understand how it worked and what an adjudication was.
Joanna Cherry: Did anyone explain to you how it worked?
"William": Maybe they did, but I cannot remember.
Joanna Cherry: Can I ask you about when you were on the block? You mentioned that you were on the block a few times—did you say 23 to 24 days throughout the whole time?
"William": Of my whole sentence.
Joanna Cherry: So, one time you got 21 days, but you just served 13. Can you tell us about that time? What did you get it for?
"William": For a phone.
Joanna Cherry: Having a phone, right. So you were given 21 days but served 13. What about the other occasions: what had you done?
"William": One other occasion was a fight, so they had me on block overnight. I went back to the wing, so it is always been short stints, except that one time of 13 days.
Joanna Cherry: You said it is not for the weak-minded. Can you explain a bit more what you mean about that?
Joanna Cherry: So you say that all you have is a toilet and a bed.
"William": Your mattress, your sink and your toilet.
Joanna Cherry: Did you say you were allowed a book, because sometimes you used to get a newspaper?
"William": I would come out and collect my dinner and as I walked back, there was a bookshelf, and I just grabbed any book and tried to read. I used to order newspapers as well, so I would read every word back to front just to kill time.
Joanna Cherry: Those times when you got put on block, for having the phone and on the other occasions, can you think of anything that could have been done differently to deal with your breach of the rules other than putting you on block?
"William": I do not know. Prison rules are prison rules. I am not going to say I would rather that they made me do a course on how not to do it again. I deserved to get punished, but I feel that block does not work.
Joanna Cherry: Why do you say it does not work?
"William": Because I know. What am I learning? If the point is to rehabilitate me, what am I learning? You are just putting me in a small, dark room to sit and think about my actions, but I am not thinking, I just need to get out of there. If someone needs a smoke, is dependent on drugs or is claustrophobic, that will turn them mad. There was a time when there was a mental health guy—well, he was not really well—and he was banging his door all night until about three in the morning. He was banging his door, banging his door, banging his door and I was lying there just trying to sleep, but I could not even sleep.
Q47 Ms Karen Buck: You say you got 21 days for having a phone. What is the longest period of block you have ever come across or heard about? If someone was caught dealing Spice, or whatever, how much would they get, if you get three weeks for a phone?
"William": That is the thing. I think the maximum they are allowed to give is 21 days, but I have heard of and seen people be on the block for months. This guy had been on the block for two months or three months. I do not know if it was by choice. He might have done something wrong to get into the block, and maybe he was acting up while he was in the block, so they just kept him. I think it was a month and a half or two months. I was thinking, “I could never do a month and a half”.
Ms Karen Buck: But you got the same length on block for having a phone as you think someone would get for quite a major drug offence?
"William": Yes, but maybe even less. You might get seven or 10 days. It all depends on the governor, but I thought that, for a phone, 21 days was a bit harsh: I did not hurt anybody.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: Did a family member bring in the phone that you got put on block for? How did you get the phone?
"William": From a prisoner.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: A prisoner had the phone and you borrowed it?
"William": Yes.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon: And then you got caught with the phone?
"William": Unfortunately, yes.
Q48 Joanna Cherry: You said earlier that the older you got during your time in custody, the more time you got out of your cell. Why was that?
"William": I do not have a clue. When I compare my time in [adult prison] to my time in [young offenders’ institution], I was out of my cell way more, even if I was not working.
Chair: That is an adult prison.
"William": Yes.
Joanna Cherry: Which did you prefer? Some people might think that for a guy like you, youth detention is a less scary environment than prison, but on the other hand, you spent more time out of your cell in the adult prison, so that might have been preferable to you. I wonder which you preferred and why.
"William": Everywhere I have gone, I have always got a good job and done well, but maybe [adult prison].
Joanna Cherry: You preferred the adult prison.
"William": Yes.
Joanna Cherry: Is that because you got more time out of your cell?
"William": Yes.
Joanna Cherry: Is there anything else you want to say about how the adult prison compared with the young offender institution?
Chair: Was it nearer to your family? Was it easier to visit?
"William": Yes. When you are unemployed, it is harder. They were harsher in the young offender institution than in the adult prison. Adult prison was more relaxed.
Joanna Cherry: Why do you think that was? Why was it harsher in the young offender institution and more relaxed in the adult prison?
"William": I do not know. They cannot control the adults as much as they can control the young offenders. How is a 25 year-old officer going to tell a 50 year-old old-school gang member to do something? It is easier to tell a 16 year-old than an older person.
Joanna Cherry: Is there anything else you would like to say to us about your experience in the young offender institution that you think might be of interest to us?
"William": I just feel that they need to understand the kids more and treat them with more empathy and understanding. They should not just think, “You’re a bad kid. I’m going to treat you like an adult because you did this offence”. They should have more understanding, because those kids are the future. If you treat them a certain way, they will react. I did not really respond to how I was treated. I was not treated badly, but I was not treated nicely either.
Lord Woolf: Perhaps younger prisoners are more difficult to control.
"William": I would say that. In one aspect they are more boisterous, energetic and troublesome and have more issues from outside, but they can be controlled.
Chair: Thank you very much indeed. We can hear from government Ministers responsible for young offender institutions, governors and prison officers, judges and social workers, but it is really important that we have heard from you about your practical experience, not talking about what they say happens but from your personal experience. We appreciate you coming along to speak to us.
"William": My pleasure.
Chair: That has helped us a lot with our inquiry so, on behalf of everyone, thank you very much indeed.
"William": No worries.
Oral evidence: Youth detention: Solitary confinement and restraint 2
[1] “Enhanced” is a level within the Incentive and Earned Privileges (IEP) system.