Welsh Affairs Committee
Oral evidence: Free-to-air Sports broadcasting, HC 594
Wednesday 13 July 2022
Ordered by the House of Commons to be published on 13 July 2022.
Members present: Stephen Crabb (Chair); Geraint Davies; Ruth Jones; Ben Lake; Beth Winter.
Questions 1-46
Witnesses
I: Rhodri Williams, Chair, S4C, and Siân Doyle, Chief Executive, S4C.
Witnesses: Rhodri Williams and Siân Doyle.
Q1 Chair: Bore da, good morning. Welcome to this session of the Welsh Affairs Committee in the Wilson Room in Portcullis House. I am delighted that we are joined this morning by Siân Doyle, the chief executive of S4C, and by Rhodri Williams, the chair of S4C. Rhodri, the last time we were together in person was just before the first lockdown for your pre-appointment hearing, so it is great to see you back here in person. Siân, it is great to see you here for the first time.
We are looking forward to a discussion about free-to-air broadcasting—on sports coverage, principally—but it would be good to hear from you, Siân, as the new chief executive, on your vision for S4C, the strategy and where you want to take it. Perhaps you would like to start with an opening statement, and we can build from there.
Siân Doyle: That would be great, thank you. I have been in role for six months now, and we are into our first year of the new strategy. Thank you to everybody for the licence agreement that we had in January. I think it is true to say that the last few months of the pandemic actually accelerated digital adoption by our audiences—seven years of adoption in a few months—so our strategy is very much focused on how we make sure that the channel is relevant in the new ecosystem and the landscape that we are now operating in. We all know that there is so much content available with the SVODs—Netflix, Amazon Prime and so on. Therefore, the choice for our audience in Wales is exponentially bigger than what we have seen before.
The first thing is to make sure we continue to deliver great, bold content that brings the window of Wales to the audience, but also takes Wales out to the world. We are very proud of the content that we produce, and our real focus from a genre perspective is on things like drama and children’s drama because it is such a stage. We know what Welsh noir has done, and we want to find the next one, so we are really excited about that.
Children, of course, are absolutely critical to the purpose of the channel—maintaining the Welsh language and growing it, and making sure the language is live. Sport, which we will come on to talk about, is core to our strategy. Running alongside our content strategy is very much how we make sure our audience can see the content they want on the platform they would want. We want to make sure that we are on all these connected TVs as nearly 70% of the population now have connected TVs.
We also know about being on Sky, Freeview Play and YouView. We have to be as prominent as we can with our players as people are migrating to watch content digitally. Of course, there are all the social media channels—YouTube, TikTok and whatever the next one will be. We have to make sure we are relevant on that, because we know that nearly a third of our younger audiences watch everything on catch-up now, so on iPlayer and Clic. We had over 366 hours on YouTube last year. That is growing exponentially. The digital channels are growing. Linear is slowly declining, although it still has a massive requirement for our traditional and older audiences, but as we target the next generation in Wales, we have to make sure that we are on that platform.
Those two things are central to our strategy, and underlying all that is our purpose to grow the Welsh language and be absolutely part of the culture of Wales whether or not we reflect all the live moments in Wales. We are incredibly proud of the Eisteddfod yr Urdd. Not only did we have that on our catch-up—we had 600,000 people engaged with it—but we were streaming the stages live, so aunties could watch their nieces and nephews on the stage. That is so important for the culture of Wales.
At the end of that week, we had the Wales v Ukraine game. I don’t need to say anything about that because we are all still excited about what happened. We had over 600 viewing sessions of Dafydd Iwan singing Yma o Hyd. That is continuing to grow, and it is not going away, as we say. Does that give you a bit of flavour of some of the key focuses for us?
Q2 Chair: That is very helpful. Behind that incredibly interesting, dynamic, changing picture that you have described, what for you, as the chief executive, are the key metrics that will be important to you to judge whether the channel is being successful?
Siân Doyle: That’s a great question because that is a real transition for us. The old—not the old, but the traditional—measurement is the overnights. The overnights are only part of the picture now because we also need to watch that we are seeing how many people use our catch-up services and our players. For drama, such as “Y Golau”, which we have just had, that is critical. We are now looking at our new dashboard and our new targets on how we look at all our platforms, but the core targeting really is the Welsh language and Welsh viewers within the 25 to 44 age group—just making sure that our younger generation is seeing what it would want to see on the channels. We know that we have a very loyal viewership among those of the older generation who speak Welsh, but mixed households and parents who learned Welsh, lost their Welsh for a bit but are bringing it back as their children are at school are a core target audience for us now, and those are the metrics we would want to grow.
Q3 Chair: Thank you. Rhodri Williams, before we move on to look at sport in more detail, is there anything you want to add to the picture that Siân Doyle has described?
Rhodri Williams: Just briefly, may I say that the last time I was here I was explaining to the Committee that S4C needed to refresh and to reinvent and reimagine itself for the digital age? It needed not to think of itself and not to behave simply as a linear television channel, but to become a digital entity that provided content on the platforms that people use most often.
The good news—I would not want to use it as an excuse, because we are two years down the line and, clearly, covid and lockdown had a huge impact on our producers and our production capacity, and I think we responded particularly well to that; my thanks go to the production sector and our staff who kept things going—is that in that time, we have been thinking about that reinvention and reimagining.
I am glad to say that we have now refreshed the board, which we will maybe talk a bit about later, and the management team—we have Siân and a chief content officer, Llinos Griffin-Williams, in place—and we are actually now doing what I was telling you last time that we needed to do. We are not there yet—I do not think this is ever something where you can say, “Ah, job done”—but we are well on the way to doing what needed to be done.
Chair: Diolch yn fawr.
Q4 Ben Lake: Croeso i chi’ch dau i’r cyfarfod y bore ’ma. Mae’n bleser gallu eich cyfarch chi yn y Gymraeg. Mae’r Cadeirydd eisoes wedi sôn am bwysigrwydd chwaraeon i’r sianel. Siân, fe wnaethoch chi sôn hefyd am y rôl graidd y mae darlledu chwaraeon yn ei chwarae yng ngwaith y sianel. Tybed a fyddech chi’n fodlon amlinellu rhywfaint o’r heriau rydych chi’n eu hwynebu ar hyn o bryd, o ran yr hawliau i ddarlledu chwaraeon byw am ddim?
(Translation) I warmly welcome the two of you to this meeting. It is a great pleasure to address you through the medium of Welsh. The Chair has already mentioned the importance of sport to the channel. Siân, you mentioned the core role that sport broadcasting plays in the work of the channel. Could you outline some of the challenges that you face at the moment in terms of the rights to broadcast sport for free?
Siân Doyle: Diolch, Ben. Mae’n rhan bwysig iawn o’r sianel, achos mae cymaint o gyfle i ddod â chynulleidfa newydd i’r sianel trwy gael chwaraeon arno fe. Rydyn ni’n gwybod ei fod e’n rhan hanfodol o ddiwylliant Cymru. Rydyn ni i gyd wedi tyfu lan gyda rygbi, pêl-droed neu beth bynnag, felly rydyn ni’n gwybod pa mor bwysig yw hynny. Rydyn ni’n darlledu rhyw 430 o oriau o chwaraeon, ryw 28% o’n harlwy ni. Mae e’n dod â chynulleidfaoedd mawr i ni, sydd wedyn yn gallu ymdrin gyda’r sianel ac ymdrin gyda’r iaith Gymraeg a’r diwylliant. Mae wyth mas o ddeg o’n rhaglenni mwyaf poblogaidd ni yn rhai chwaraeon. Wrth gwrs, mae Cymru yn ennill yn erbyn Awstria ac yn erbyn Wcráin wedi helpu hynny’n fawr iawn.
O ran yr heriau, mae’r gynulleidfa yn dweud wrthym nad ydyn nhw eisiau gweld y gemau mawr yma yn mynd y tu ôl i’r paywall. Rydyn ni’n gwybod, yng Nghymru, bod llai o subscriptions gyda ni tu ôl i’r paywall nag ym Mhrydain yn gyffredinol, felly rydyn ni’n gwybod bod pobl ddim eisiau gwneud hynny. Mae cael yr iaith Gymraeg a’r commentary Cymraeg gyda chwaraeon pwysig yn bwysig i’n cynulleidfa ni. Pan gollon ni’r hawliau i gemau Cymru, sy’n golygu y byddant yn mynd tu ôl i’r paywall rhwng 2024 a 2028, roedd yna dudalennau o’r gynulleidfa a phobl yng Nghymru, yn dweud, “Mae hyn yn warthus, nid dyma beth ydyn ni moyn. Rydyn ni moyn ‘Sgorio’, rydyn ni moyn y brand, rydyn ni moyn S4C.” Maen nhw’n teimlo eu bod nhw’n cael adlewyrchiad teg iawn o Gymru a’r angerdd sydd gyda ni fel pobl yng Nghymru at chwaraeon, yn rygbi neu’n bêl-droed.
Rydyn ni yn rhoi arlwy dda nid dim ond ar gyfer y gemau mawr, ond ar gyfer pêl-rwyd, hoci a chwaraeon dan 20—rygbi a phêl-droed. Mae’n harlwy ni ar draws cynulleidfa fawr yng Nghymru—nid dim ond y pethau mawr—rydyn ni i gyd yn gwybod am emosiwn hynny; mae’n bwysig ein bod ni’n gwneud hynny hefyd mas o gymunedau Cymru, a bod pobl yn gallu gweld hynny. Er enghraifft, ryw bythefnos neu dair wythnos yn ôl, fe wnaethon ni ffrydio gemau’r Urdd. Mae hynny i fi yn dangos ein bod ni’n rhan o ddiwylliant Cymru. Mae cael hynny trwy’r Gymraeg, trwy commentary Cymraeg ar y gemau mawr, yn hanfodol i lwyddiant yr iaith yng Nghymru.
(Translation) Thank you, Ben. It is an integral part of the channel, because there is such an opportunity to bring a new audience to the channel by having sport. We know that it is a key part of Welsh culture. We have all grown up watching rugby, football or whatever, so we know how important it is. We broadcast about 430 hours of sport, which is about 28% of our provision. It brings our large audiences, who then engage with the channel and with Welsh language and Welsh culture. Eight out of 10 of our most popular programmes are sport. Of course, Wales beating Austria and Ukraine helped that and gave it a significant boost.
One of the challenges that, to be fair, the audience is telling us about is that they do not want to see these big games go behind a paywall. We know that in Wales we have fewer subscriptions behind a paywall compared with the rest of Britain, so we know that people do not want to see that happen. Having the Welsh language and Welsh language commentary on major sporting events is important for our audience. When we lost the rights for Wales games and they went behind a paywall for 2024 to 2028, there were pages and pages of comments from the audience and people in Wales saying, “This is disgraceful. This is what we want to see. We want to see ‘Sgorio’, we want to see the brand, and we want S4C.” They feel that they get a fair reflection of Wales and the passion that we have, as Welsh people, towards sport, whether that be rugby or football.
We also provide good coverage not only of the major games but of netball, hockey, and under-20s rugby and football. Our provision reaches a wide audience in Wales. It is not just the major events—we all know the emotion behind them; it is also important that we do it from Welsh communities and that people can see it. For example, two or three weeks ago, we streamed the Urdd games. For me, that shows that we are part of Welsh culture. Having that through the medium of Welsh, and through Welsh commentary on major games, is essential and it is part of the success of the language in Wales.
Q5 Ben Lake: Cytuno’n llwyr. Roeddech chi’n sôn bod wyth allan o 10 o’r rhaglenni mwyaf poblogaidd yn rhai chwaraeon. O edrych ar yr heriau yma i gael yr hawliau i ddarlledu chwaraeon byw am ddim, faint o ofid yw e i’r sianel? Oes yna unrhyw fesurau neu gamau fyddech chi am i’r Llywodraeth eu cymryd er mwyn eich helpu chi yn hyn o beth?
(Translation) I agree entirely. You mentioned that eight out of 10 of your most popular programmes are sport programmes. How much of a concern are the challenges of free-to-air broadcasting for the channel? Are there any measures or actions that you would like the Government to take to assist you?
Siân Doyle: Yn bendant. Rydyn ni’n iawn gyda’r Chwe Gwlad achos rydyn ni’n gweithio gyda’r BBC. O ran gemau pêl-droed, sydd ar feddwl pawb ar hyn o bryd, o ’22 i ’24, rydyn ni’n grêt. Mae gyda ni yng Nghymru, commentary Cymraeg—ond nid am bob peth. Mae Premier yn ei wneud e yn Saesneg, a fyddwn ni’n ei wneud yn Gymraeg, sydd yn grêt. Mae hynny’n free to air.
Yr her sydd gyda ni nawr yw ’24 i ’28, oherwydd mae’r contract oedd gan UEFA a CAA Eleven wedi mynd i NENT. Mae hynny’n mynd i fod tu ôl y paywall, felly fydd pobl yng Nghymru ddim yn gallu gweld gemau Cymru trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg am ddim. Fe fydd yn rhaid iddyn nhw dalu subscription i NENT i wneud hynny.
Dwi’n meddwl y byddai’r Llywodraeth yn gallu helpu gyda hynny, oherwydd ein bod ni eisiau gwneud yn siŵr bod ffyniant yr iaith Gymraeg yn hanfodol. Mae chwaraeon yn rhan annatod o beth rydyn ni’n ei wneud. Dwi’n credu ei fod e’n bwysig. Mae’r media Bill efallai yn mynd i helpu gyda hynny, gyda listed events. Y gefnogaeth fydden ni’n ei licio ydy bod S4C a commentary Cymraeg yn gallu cael free-to-air fel bod pethau sy’n mynd trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg ar gael i’n cynulleidfa ni. Ydy hynny’n helpu?
(Translation) Yes, certainly. The Six Nations is fine, because we work with the BBC. In terms of football matches, which are at the forefront of everyone’s mind, it is great from ’22 to ’24. In Wales, we have Welsh commentary—not for everything: Premier do it in English and we will be doing it in Welsh. That is great and that will be free to air.
The challenge we now face is from ’24 to ’28, because the contract from UEFA and CAA Eleven has gone to NENT. That will be behind a paywall, so people in Wales will not be able to watch Welsh games through the medium of Welsh for free. They will have to pay a subscription to NENT to do that.
I think that the Government could help with that, because the prosperity of the Welsh language is essential. Sport is an integral part of what we do. The media Bill might help that, with the listed events. However, for us, we would like support for S4C and Welsh commentary to be free-to-air, so that everything through the medium of Welsh is available to our audiences. Does that help?
Q6 Ben Lake: Ydy, diolch yn fawr iawn. Yn gryno iawn, cyn rhoi’r cyfle i rai o fy nghydweithwyr roi ambell i gwestiwn i chi, sut fath o drafodaeth sydd wedi bod gydag Amazon ynghylch sylwebaeth Gymraeg ar gyfer gemau rygbi’r hydref?
(Translation) Yes, thank you very much. Very briefly, before I hand over to colleagues, what discussions have you had with Amazon about having Welsh commentary for the autumn internationals?
Siân Doyle: Rydyn ni’n cael yr uchafbwyntiau eto gyda’r gemau hynny. Dyna’r sgwrs sydd wedi bod ar ôl y contract y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Y sgyrsiau rydyn ni’n eu cael ar hyn o bryd yw ein bod ni’n mynd draw i siarad gyda UEFA ddiwedd yr haf i weld beth allwn ni wneud am ’24 i ’28. Rydyn ni wedi bod mor llwyddiannus gyda Sky. Mae Sky wedi cael yr hawliau, ond rydyn ni wedi cael sub-licence ar gyfer Cymru tan 2022 ar y pêl-droed. Mae’r drefn yna wedi gweithio am flynyddoedd. Beth fydden ni eisiau ei weld yw bod y drefn yna’n cario ymlaen fel bod yr iaith Gymraeg yn cael ei hedrych ar ei hôl, o ran y commentary.
(Translation) We have the highlights, once again, for those games. That is a conversation that we have had after last year’s contract. The discussions are ongoing, and we will be talking to UEFA over the summer to see what we can do about ’24 to ’28. We were so successful with Sky, where Sky had the rights and we had the sub-licence in Wales for the football until 2022. That system had worked very well for years. I would like to see it continue so that the Welsh language is protected, in terms of the commentary.
Q7 Ben Lake: Yn olaf, fe wnaethoch chi grybwyll y byddai’r media Bill, o bosibl, yn gallu helpu. Dwi’n gwybod bod un o fy nghydweithwyr i am eich holi chi fwy am hynny, ond a fyddai rhestr benodol o gemau chwaraeon Cymreig o fudd i’r sianel?
(Translation) Finally, you mentioned that the media Bill might be able to assist. I know that one of my colleagues would like to ask you more about that, but would a specific list of Welsh sporting games help the channel?
Siân Doyle: Trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg? Yn bendant. Byddai’n wirioneddol o help i ni.
(Translation) Through the medium of Welsh? Yes, that would certainly help. That would really help us.
Ben Lake: Diolch yn fawr iawn.
(Translation) Thank you very much.
Q8 Beth Winter: Croeso a diolch am ddod heddiw. I adeiladu ar bwynt Ben am Fil y cyfryngau, beth ydy eich chi am y Bil? A oes unrhyw beth ar goll yn y Bil, rhywbeth yr hoffech chi gael ei gynnwys? Mae’n rhaid bod gennych chi rhestr hir.
(Translation) Welcome and thank you for coming today. Building on Ben’s point about the media Bill, what is your opinion about the Bill? Is there anything missing that you would like to see included? I am sure you have a long list.
Siân Doyle: Efallai y gwnaiff Rhodri ddechrau ac fe wna i gario ymlaen.
(Translation) Perhaps Rhodri will start on this and then I will come in.
Rhodri Williams: Mae yna elfennau gwahanol ohono fe. Mae peth ohono fe yn rhoi mewn lle yn gyfreithiol rhai o’r pethau sydd wedi dechrau digwydd yn barod. Er enghraifft, rydyn ni fel bwrdd nawr yn fwrdd unedol yn hytrach nag awdurdod neu weithrediaeth. Mae hynny’n golygu bod Siân a rhai o’i chydweithwyr hi yn eistedd o gwmpas y bwrdd fel aelodau cyfartal. Mae hynny’n welliant i’n llywodraethiant ni. Mae hynny’n digwydd nawr gyda sêl bendith DCMS, ond dyw e ddim yn ffurfiol. Fe fydd y mesur yn gwella hynny.
Fe fydd e’n gwella ein hawl ni i fod ar gael drwy’r Deyrnas Unedig, rhywbeth arall sydd yn bwysig er mwyn i ni gyrraedd siaradwyr Cymraeg mewn rhannau eraill o’r Deyrnas Unedig. Fe fydd hefyd yn caniatáu i’r broses o wario—mae gan S4C rywfaint o arian masnachol, sydd yn wahanol i’r arian cyhoeddus. Mae’r broses o fuddsoddi hwnnw yn gallu bod yn araf ambell waith, ond fe fydd hwn yn hwyluso hynny. Rydyn ni’n croesawu newidiadau o’r math yna yn fawr iawn.
Y peth eithriadol o bwysig y mae Siân wedi cyfeirio ato’n barod yw amlygrwydd—sicrhau bod gwasanaethau S4C ar gael ar setiau teledu clyfar a llwyfannau digidol eraill. Os nad yw’r chwaraewr yna ar y dechrau—os oes raid i bobl fynd i chwilio amdano fe—mae’n mynd i fod yn anodd. Os meddyliwch chi’n ôl i ddyddiau cynnar S4C, rhan o’r llwyddiant oedd mai un allan o bedwar oedden ni. Roeddech chi’n eistedd yna gyda’ch remote control ac yn dewis un, dau, tri neu pedwar. Roedd e’n amlwg iawn. Gyda'r holl ddewis sydd i’w gael erbyn hyn—er enghraifft, mae gen i set deledu Sony gartref, ac hyd yma dydw i ddim wedi gallu cael mynediad rhwydd i chwaraewr S4C ei hunan. Mae’n rhaid i fi fynd trwy’r iPlayer, achos mae hwnnw yn amlwg ar y set sydd ’da fi. Dyna’r peth pwysig.
Dwi’n gwybod bod elfennau dadleuol yn rhan o’r hyn sydd gerbron ar hyn o bryd, ond petaswn i’n gorfod gadael un peth gyda chi ynglŷn â’r mesur, byddwn yn dweud, beth bynnag sy’n digwydd i’r elfennau hynny, ei fod yn bwysig bod y mesur yn mynd yn ei flaen. Mae hynny’n hollbwysig, nid dim ond i ni fel sefydliad sydd yn darlledu yn yr iaith Gymraeg; mae’r un mor bwysig i’r darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus eraill hefyd. Rydyn ni’n rhan o deulu. Mae yna fodelau gwahanol, rhwng y BBC, ITV, Channel 4, Channel 5 a ninnau, ond rydyn ni’n rhan o deulu, ac mae angen i’r teulu hwnnw gydweithredu gyda’i gilydd, fel rydyn ni yn ei wneud, ond hefyd sicrhau ein bod ni i gyd yn symud i mewn i’r gofod digidol yna gyda’r amlygrwydd hynny sydd yn diogelu ein gwasanaethau ni. Heblaw hynny, mae perygl y bydd yn mynd yn anoddach ac yn anoddach i ddod o hyd i gynnwys Cymraeg. Y peth pwysig i ni yw bod y mesur yn cael ei gyflwyno—efallai taw yn yr hydref fydd hynny nawr—ac yn dod gerbron Tŷ’r Cyffredin ac yn cael ei wneud yn ddeddf er mwyn sicrhau’r amlygrwydd yna. Mae hynny yn hollbwysig.
(Translation) There are different elements in it. Some of it puts in place, in a legal structure, things that have already started. For example, we, as a board, are now a unitary board, rather than having an authority and an executive. That means that Siân and her colleagues are sat around the table as equal members of the board, so that is an improvement to our governance. That is happening now with the seal of approval of DCMS, but it is not formal. It happens at the moment, but it is not formal. The Bill will help that.
The Bill will also mean that we will be available throughout the UK, something that is very important for us to reach Welsh speakers in other parts of the UK. The Bill will also allow the process of spending—S4C has some commercial money, which is separate from the public money. The process of investing that money can be slow, but I think the Bill will facilitate that. We warmly welcome those types of changes.
The most important thing, which Siân has already referred to, is prominence. We need to ensure that S4C services are available and visible on smart TVs and other digital platforms. If the player is not there on the front of the screen—if people have to search for it—then it will be difficult. If you think back to the early days of S4C, part of its success was because it was just one of four channels. You were sat there with your remote control, and you had a choice of one, two, three or four. It was very obvious and prominent. Now, with all the choice available—for example, at home, I have a Sony TV, and up until now, I have not really been able to have easy access to the S4C player. I have to go through iPlayer, because iPlayer is prominent on the set that I have. That is the important thing.
I know that there are some controversial elements associated with what has been tabled, but if I had to leave one thing with you about the Bill, it would be that whatever happens to those controversial issues, the Bill must go through. That is essential, not just for us as an organisation that broadcasts in the medium of Welsh; it is just as important for the other public service broadcasters. We are a member of a family. Yes, there are different models between BBC, ITV, Channel 4, Channel 5 and ourselves, but we are part of a family, and that family has to co-operate, as we do, but also to ensure that we are all moving into the digital space with a prominence that safeguards our services; otherwise, there is a danger that it will become more and more difficult to find Welsh content. The most important thing for us is that the Bill is pushed through—it might be in the autumn now—and comes before the House of Commons, and that it is made into legislation so that we have that prominence. That is essential.
Q9 Beth Winter: Ydy’r Llywodraeth yn siarad gyda chi ac yn gwrando ar y pwyntiau rydych chi’n eu gwneud?
(Translation) Are the Government talking to you and listening to the points you are making?
Rhodri Williams: Ydyn. Efallai ei bod hi’n werth nodi, yn gyffredinol, bod ein perthynas ni gyda’r Adran dros Dechnoleg Ddigidol, Diwylliant, y Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon wedi bod yn dda iawn. Fe gawson ni drafferthion rhyw ddwy flynedd yn ôl gyda threth ar werth. Roedd yr awdurdodau treth am newid y rheolau dros nos. Byddai hynny wedi golygu ein bod ni’n colli tua £15 miliwn y flwyddyn. Fe weithion ni gyda’r Adran yn agos iawn i sicrhau bod hynny ddim yn broblem. Wedyn daeth mater setliad y ffi drwydded.
Mae’n werth ailadrodd ein diolch ni i chi fel Pwyllgor am eich cefnogaeth chi, ac i Aelodau Seneddol eraill o bob plaid wleidyddol a chwaraeodd ran yn hynny. Mae’r gweision sifil hefyd wedi chwarae rhan. Dwi’n credu bod y berthynas sydd rhyngom ni a’r Adran yn well nawr nag y mae wedi bod ers blynyddoedd lawer. Mae’r trafodaethau yn parhau. Mae Siân yn mynd i siarad gyda rhai o swyddogion yr Adran yn nes ymlaen heddiw. Mae e mewn lle da.
(Translation) Yes, they are. Perhaps it is worth stating in general that the relationship that we have had with DCMS has been a very good relationship. We had some difficulties about two years ago with VAT. The tax authorities wanted to change the rules overnight, which would have meant that we lost about £15 million a year. However, we worked very closely with DCMS to ensure that that was not a problem. Then it became time to have the licence fee settlement.
It is worth reiterating our thanks to the Committee for your support and that of other Members of Parliament from across the political parties who contributed. Civil servants also played their role, and the relationship that we have between S4C and DCMS is better than it has been for a number of years. The discussions are ongoing. In fact, Siân will be talking to some officials later this afternoon, so we are in a very good place.
Siân Doyle: Rydyn ni’n atebol i’r DCMS. Ry’n ni’n cwrdd yn chwarterol, a prynhawn yma yw’r cyfarfod chwarterol cyntraf i ddangos ble rydyn ni arni gyda’r cynllun digidol a sut rydyn ni’n symud. I ategu beth mae Rhodri wedi’i ddweud, mae’r amlygrwydd yma mor bwysig yng Nghymru. Rydyn ni wedi bod yn trafod gyda’r Llywodraeth ein bod ni’n cael hynny yng Nghymru, ond ein bod ni ar gael ar hyd y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae un rhan o dair o’n cynulleidfa ni dal yn dod mas.
Beth sy’n hynod o bwysig ydy, mae 30% o wylio pobl ifanc nawr yn cael ei wneud ar ein chwaraewyr ni. Os nad ydyn nhw’n gallu ffeindio hwnna ar y teledu clyfar, fe wnân nhw fynd i rywle arall. Mae yna gymaint o ddewis nawr i glicio ar beth bynnag. I ni, mae hynny yn hollbwysig. Peth arall yw ei fod yn gwneud ein perthynas ni gyda’r BBC yn fwy hyblyg—rydyn ni gallu bod yn fwy hyblyg yn newid ein cynnwys ni fel ei fod e ddim jyst yn 10 awr linol ac rydyn ni’n gallu edrych ar ein arlwy. Mae hynny i gyd yn bositif i ni, o ran y media Bill.
(Translation) We are, of course, accountable to DCMS. We meet every quarter, and this afternoon is the first quarterly meeting to discuss the digital plan and how we are moving ahead with that. To reiterate what Rhodri has said, this prominence is so important in Wales. We have discussed with the Government that we are available in Wales, but it is important that we are available throughout the UK as well. One third of our audience are still coming out.
What is incredibly important is that 30% of young people’s viewing is on our players, so if they cannot find our content on smart TVs, they will go and do something else, because you have so much choice that you can just click on something else. For us, that is very important. Another point is that it makes our relationship with the BBC more flexible—we can be more flexible in changing our content, so that it is not just 10 hours of linear and we can look at our provision. That, again, is a positive of the media Bill.
Q10 Beth Winter: Ydych chi’n becso ynglŷn â’r pwynt fod pobl yn gorfod talu i wylio pethau, achos fe fydd hyn yn stopio llawer o bobl?
(Translation) Are you worried about people having to pay to watch content, because that will prevent a lot of people from watching it?
Siân Doyle: Y ffaith yw nad ydynt yn talu ar hyn o bryd ac rydyn ar gael fel PSB. Fe fydd yn broblem fawr pe bai hynny’n digwydd. Mae Netflix ar hyn o bryd yn colli dipyn o’u pobl, ac yn colli rhywfaint o’u subscriptions. Mae’n mynd i fod yn amser anodd. I ni, beth sy’n bwysig yw ein bod ni’n amlwg. Ac, er mwyn yr iaith Gymraeg, mae’n bwysig ei fod e’n hollol glir sut rydych chi’n ffeindio ni ar y teledu.
(Translation) The fact is that they do not pay at the moment and we are available as a PSB. It would be a major problem if they paid. But if you look at Netflix at the moment, it is losing a lot of viewers and a lot of subscriptions. It will be a difficult time. For us, it is important that we are visible and prominent. And, for the Welsh language, it has to be crystal clear how to find us easily on the television.
Q11 Geraint Davies: I want to carry on with the same theme about visibility and prominence for a moment. I want to know exactly what you would like to happen, because it strikes me that, as S4C wants to grow from a small base, we obviously need to give it a disproportionate voice in some sense, including for the third of subscribers who are outside of Wales. So what would I be looking at in your perfect world when I turn to my screen? Do you see what I mean?
Siân Doyle: If we relate it to the old world that Rhodri remembers—[Laughter.]
Geraint Davies: Don’t go that far back. Dr Who would not go that far back—[Laughter.]
Siân Doyle: When you remember back, and it is how easy you can find it: you can always find S4C, even with 200 channels now, because we are on 104 or 114. That is really important.
So, if you relate that then to all those tiles at the bottom of the TV, you can actually see iPlayer, Channel 4 and S4C, that is where we want to be. What we do not want to happen is people having to scroll through a load of pages when you are in Wales. And with TVs becoming cleverer, with IPTV and so on, it is really important that we actually are prominent there.
One of the challenges for me as a chief exec is the fact that I do not have an army of commercial people going to negotiate. Currently, we are having to talk to Samsung, Freeview Play, YouView, Sky and Virgin Media about where we want to be and how we want to be prominent on these clever and connected TVs. With the Bill to support that, that makes that conversation a lot simpler for us.
Also, we do not have the commercial means to negotiate either against Amazon or Netflix. So, as a public service broadcaster, giving that support from a media Bill will just be invaluable and will benefit the audience of Wales. That is so important.
Q12 Geraint Davies: The BBC advertises itself, like its drama and all that sort of thing. Do you think there should be more of a slot to have S4C suddenly coming into the mix, so that people who are not habitually going to S4C but might go to it if they were encouraged—is there a facility to do that?
Siân Doyle: Yes. We are seeing some of that, because we are obviously on iPlayer. We are already having pre-rolls and the BBC are great at bringing S4C content on there, as well.
Q13 Geraint Davies: You mention sport. Sport, in essence, is a mechanism really of engaging with people in Welsh as well. It is a popular thing to watch; you do not need to know all the language. It is a bit of a controversial question really, but to what extent have you considered mixed-language productions, because, as in this meeting, people are switching in and out of Welsh? I mean, on a programme, or in a pub, or in some social gathering, that sometimes happens. Is there a tendency just to have all-Welsh as opposed to all-English? Or do you think that would be a dilution of your role, as it were?
Siân Doyle: I think we should always have Welsh commentary in Welsh and have the passion that comes through with—
Q14 Geraint Davies: What about dramas? I am just thinking about engaging people who perhaps could more easily understand something that was a bit more mixed, and bring them into Welsh, rather than having a point of view that it has got to be all-Welsh or all-English.
Siân Doyle: I will give you the example of the recent drama that we have just had on, which is “Y Golau”. We did it as a back-to-back production with Channel 4. That was done in Welsh. There was some English in it, which was reflective of the situation of the drama. But the emergence of subtitles now, and the predominance of people—my youngest daughter, for instance, watches everything with subtitles. Those subtitles now bring in more and more people, so they can engage with the Welsh language, because we can then increase our provision of subtitles.
We can do that—either you could watch subtitles in English, or we are now increasing our provision of subtitling in Welsh, which then helps people who are perhaps not as familiar with the language to be able to follow the language and read at the same time. And it also helps with literacy for children, and so on.
So I do think now, with the technology that we have, that the accessibility of the language is actually much bigger, because we can create subtitles and so on, and people will engage with that. And it is amazing, with the recent drama.
Q15 Geraint Davies: That is great. So, the way forward is to keep the purity, to a certain extent, with subtitling. On the flipside, what about dubbing? Is there a move to do more dubbing of films in Welsh or not really?
Siân Doyle: We do some of that for children, on animation, but not hugely on other content.
Q16 Geraint Davies: Finally, on the public service remit and the change to digital and online services, do you have the skills and capacity and the resources to deliver that?
Siân Doyle: I am talking to DCMS this afternoon. One of our challenges is recruitment. If I was leaving university now, I would become a data scientist, because—wow—there is such a need for those people, in terms of digital data. We are working with some universities to see what we can do on getting skills quite early into the language. It is a challenge because everybody is now looking for somebody who can manipulate the data, create the curation and create the personalisation. We were a bit slow in terms of some of our recruitment, but it is something we are putting a lot of focus on at the moment.
Rhodri Williams: The skills shortage within the industry is something that has taken me a bit by surprise, to be honest. When I was part of an independent production company, recruiting people to do anything was never a problem. You had more applicants than you could interview. People would just come to your door and would do anything—they would come in at a low level, learn their skills and then progress through the ranks, until they got to more senior positions within the business.
Companies are telling me that that is not the case anymore. They are finding it very hard to attract young people, and not necessarily young people—age diversity is an important element of diversity, which we and our production sector partners are trying to increase. They are finding it difficult to bring in people with less experience. That then causes problems when you need a series producer to work on a high-profile series, because you do not have that flow of talent coming through the organisation.
It is good that the industry is recognising it. There is some very good work being done by Screen Alliance Wales, for instance, and the Welsh Government are putting some money in to help with training, in order to ensure that we have not only the data scientists but the people we need to actually produce the kind of compelling content that we need to be able to do.
Q17 Geraint Davies: Do you think there should be more focus and investment from the UK and Welsh Governments on colleges for the diversity of new digital skills we need in order to develop the productivity in the arts that can then be taken abroad? I am thinking specifically of the Bay Studios, which is a largely redundant former Ford building. There was a sort of internal vision at one point of that being a college for training people in arts and drama and digital technology, as part of the new economy, which would include what you want to do. Is that the sort of thing you would like to see the Welsh and UK Governments moving to focus on?
Rhodri Williams: Absolutely; any investment in training would be beneficial. There is a lot of good work being done at the moment. There is a great example. We have desks in the BBC’s new offices in Central Square in Cardiff. Next to that is the School of Journalism part of Cardiff University, which is one of the UK’s leading centres for training and education, if not one of the world’s. I think the more we can do of that, the better. It is very important—I gave an example from Cardiff, but it must not all be in Cardiff.
Geraint Davies: Certainly not.
Rhodri Williams: One of the benefits that came as a result of S4C’s creation is the fact that we have an independent production sector that is dispersed in other parts of Wales and training needs to take place there as well. We should do anything that can be done to help with that. Clearly, we have an important role to play, as have the other broadcasters. Both the BBC and ITV in Wales are doing their bit as well. We are working in partnership to ensure that we keep that flow of talent coming into the industry.
Q18 Geraint Davies: During the pandemic, we know there was a reasonable amount of support for people on payroll, but there wasn’t for people who were self-employed. In your sort of industry, there are more likely to be freelancers coming to your door, as you described earlier on, and doing jobs as they come along. Those people had a very difficult time and many of them have now gone into payroll jobs, so they are no longer available and as the industry is kicking off again, they are not about. Have you any thoughts about that and what we can do about it?
Siân Doyle: I think you are spot on. The pandemic has had quite an impact on freelancers and people have chosen to go and do a permanent role and therefore stay paid, rather than being unsure. The other thing that is going on is that the creative sector is also growing massively in Wales, so during the couple of years of the pandemic we lost some of that in-flow and growth in that sector. I think there is a lot of catch-up going on, and you are spot on in your observation about the pandemic and freelancers.
Q19 Geraint Davies: That is something the Committee might come back to, because we are interested in potential growth sectors.
Finally, the cost of living crisis means that as people have dropped money for Netflix subscriptions and the like, as you have mentioned, there is a compelling case for more access to broadcasts that are free to view, in particular for the indigenous Welsh language to thrive. In light of that, is there anything more in the media Bill or elsewhere that the Government should do in order not to exclude the growing numbers of people who do not have any money?
Siân Doyle: I think the media Bill covers what we have just talked about, to be honest.
Rhodri Williams: If it can deliver that prominence and if there is an enforceable regime, so that a platform operator cannot just turn around and say, “Oh, S4C—we don’t care about you. Go away and leave us alone.” We need an enforceable regime.
Siân and I met the chief executive of Ofcom in Cardiff yesterday, and they are working hard on the codes of practice that will come into effect when the media Bill becomes law, so they are getting ready for that. Their expectation is that the regime will be enforceable and they will have the power to tell operators who are not—my suspicion is that the problem will probably disappear by then, because once it becomes law, I think people will, hopefully, accept that they have to do it and will do it willingly, so we will not have to turn to Ofcom and say, “Look, we have got a problem with a platform over here that will not do it.” Hopefully, the measures that are in the Bill, as Siân said, are sufficient.
Q20 Ruth Jones: Thank you both for your time this morning. Before we leave the media Bill, earlier Siân mentioned free-to-air sports broadcasting. Under the new Bill, the interim Secretary of State—obviously, Robert Buckland is the Secretary of State for Wales, at the moment—has clearly said that free-to-air broadcasting rights will only apply to national sporting events that are currently identified under the listed event regime. Are there any other events that you think should be on that list?
Siân Doyle: We had this conversation last year and we have been talking about this issue. For us, the distinction is through the Welsh language being free to air. The main events are things like the Six Nations and World cup football, including the equivalent male and female events, which I think is really important, the Commonwealth Games and anything that has that Welsh presence, so that we can make sure that we provide great Welsh commentary and bring people together. Those are the main events, I think. The big distinction for us is that it is free to air through the Welsh language. We have a great relationship where we have been working behind the paywall, because the Welsh language has been able to be free.
Q21 Ruth Jones: Do you see any big gaps at the moment?
Siân Doyle: No, because S4C is not even covered by listed events, because the current Bill means that we have to have 95% coverage and, of course, we do not have that, so the change in the media Bill, so that S4C is viewed as a PSB and therefore has the rights for sport, will make a big step forward for that. Then, from our perspective, it is just making sure that we have that Welsh commentary.
Q22 Ruth Jones: That is helpful, thank you. Moving on to the licence fee settlement, over the next couple of years you will get £88.5 million in total over each year. What are your priorities in the new funding plans?
Siân Doyle: Content, clearly, and making sure that we stay agile and follow the market with our technology. We can create the most amazing content, but it has to be available on the platforms that our viewers are using for all their other content. The two things are so important. That has been reflected in our new org structure, to make sure that we have content, and a distribution strategy as well, for all our content that comes in.
Rhodri Williams: What has been key with the licence fee settlement is that some of those things, like getting our app up on the smart TV, we would have had to do anyway but without the additional money that came. That money would have come out of content production. It would have been the independent sector—the companies making the content for us—that would have lost out, as we would have had to switch the money to people writing code for us. The additional money that the Government granted us enables that to happen without taking away from the content creation. As Siân says, it enables us to carry on producing the content and to put in place the arrangements needed to distribute that on many platforms.
Platforms come and go. There will be new ones. TikTok, Facebook and YouTube are not the end of the world. There will be more, and we have to keep up with that. Somebody told me—because we are not the only public service broadcaster facing these challenges—that the BBC had hired 100 new engineers to work on making the iPlayer better. That is not a luxury we have, although there is benefit in that to us, too, because people accessing our programmes through the iPlayer is very important. We have a twin-track approach of making content available on the iPlayer and also making it available on Clic, our own player. That adds to the availability of that content.
We need to keep up. The challenge will be to ensure that we can do that and, hopefully, make the right choices about which platforms to go to. As Siân said, we have made a lot of headway already. Somebody told me that if you watch Clic via the Amazon Fire TV stick, the user experience is far better. With each of these players, the user experience can be slightly different. It is not one piece of software that is distributed among lots of different companies. You have to tailor the player to the specific needs of the set or the device. In Amazon’s case, that is just a USB stick that you plug into the back of the screen.
The additional money makes all that possible and allows us to keep doing what we are set up to do—to provide compelling content in the Welsh language.
Q23 Ruth Jones: Thinking ahead about the licence fee funding, there may be different models in future. Are you looking to the future and thinking about what the implications could be for S4C?
Rhodri Williams: We have to, don’t we? That is a very broad debate that is going on, and clearly it affects the whole of public service broadcasting the UK. It is not just about the BBC and us, because if there was less funding available for us and for the BBC, there would be a knock-on for the creative industries throughout the UK.
The important question for me is, what is the question being asked? Is it that we need to fund public service broadcasting and we need to find the best way of doing it? I perfectly accept that it might be possible that there are better ways, if someone can come up with a better solution. One of the things about the licence fee is that it is regressive, isn't it? Clearly, people on low incomes have to pay more proportionally than people who are well off. I can imagine a scenario where you come up with a funding formula for public service broadcasting that is different. It could be interesting to see that debate play out.
On the other hand, if there is not a better way of doing it—the licence fee has been described in the past by, I think, a DCMS Secretary of State as the least worst solution—we can stick with it. Obviously, we will follow and contribute to that debate, but the point we will want to emphasise is that whatever the formula is, we need that element of public support. S4C broadcasting in the Welsh language cannot exist in a wholly commercial world. A subscription model would mean the end of our service. It is wholly dependent on being publicly subsidised. That is the key as far as we are concerned. Yes, we could then talk about whether there are different ways of doing so. Over the years—again, harking back to 1982, Siân—S4C has been funded by a variety of different models and they have all worked. They have had their strengths and weaknesses, but they have all worked. Our priority is to ensure that there is a new one that works equally well going forward.
Ruth Jones: Thank you; that is a helpful point.
Q24 Chair: Before I bring in Beth Winter again, can I ask about TikTok? I can understand how people use the iPlayer platform to catch up with and watch content produced for the main channel. Do you produce different content for TikTok?
Siân Doyle: We do. We have two training journalists—ITV is our partner on current affairs—and they currently create some news content on TikTok, so we do have that. They have been looking at that form with schoolchildren to see how they engage with the platform, so we do have TikTok. I can’t tell you that I am an expert in TikTok, but it is amazing to see how we change our content to suit the audience and we ensure that we are on these platforms.
Q25 Chair: So it is not so much a case of using different platforms to find a new way of projecting your core content; it is coming up with a different type of broadcasting?
Siân Doyle: Yes. The way we look at it now is that you get the idea of what you want to create and you understand what audience you are targeting, and then you ask, “Which platform would suit that audience?” Some of it would be put on all the platforms. It would be appearing linear or as a live broadcast. It would be on our catch-up service—for instance, a drama as a box set. We might put small form content on a different platform. Some of the change in the culture in broadcasting for us is thinking about the idea. It is not good enough to just say, “I’ll put it on at 9 o’clock.” You have to say, “We will put it on at 9 o’clock and on all of these platforms as well,” so it is a very different way of looking at our content, going forward.
Q26 Geraint Davies: Do you think there is an opportunity for TikTok specifically to be an implicit advertising vehicle for S4C? Obviously, people scroll through lots of little 30-second amusing cameos and all that, and there might be a glimpse of someone shouting, “Goal!” or whatever it is from S4C, then that is something that people would share. Then by implication, people would say, “Well, I hadn’t thought that about S4C.” Is that true?
Siân Doyle: Yes, absolutely. I will go back to the game again: when Dafydd Iwan sang, S4C covered him singing for the whole time, and then that content has been shared exponentially. People who see it on S4C then think, “Oh gosh, that is something new.” That viral video, with 630,000 viewing experiences of Dafydd Iwan—who would have thought?--takes the Welsh language out of just the Welsh population and shares it with everyone. That passion can bring in new people. We use sport as a real opportunity to bring new audiences in, for sure. It is such an opportunity to give a window to what we do in Wales.
Q27 Geraint Davies: That was something that happened, wasn’t it? There was a success, but it wasn’t strategically orchestrated to use TikTok—or was it? Is that your mindset?
Siân Doyle: Well, yeah. We filmed Dafydd Iwan before the game, as well. That was shared prior to the game.
You see, the disaster for us—going back to listed events in the media Bill—is that the Welsh commentary goes behind the paywall, so people wouldn’t be able to see that. Just think of the emotion that people have felt. If, for instance, in ’24 and ’28, the Welsh football team are behind the paywall, even though there’s Welsh commentary, that would not be the same in terms of sharing the moments of Wales with our population. For a language like ours, that is so fundamental.
Q28 Chair: I want to pick up on the example you just used, Siân, about Dafydd Iwan and the song going viral. I can’t remember exactly how many viewing impressions you said it had—was it 630,000?
Siân Doyle: 630,000—and growing.
Q29 Chair: Is that something that S4C can monetise through TikTok? Or is the value of that extending reach, which is obviously difficult to measure, and helping to convert interested potential viewers into people who might actually view the real channel, so to speak?
Siân Doyle: It is not something we do today, but we need to look at that more and more. For me, at the moment, the purpose is to create the right perception of S4C and get that reach. That is paramount. It shouldn’t dilute if we go commercial. Digital marketing and so on is something that we have to look at more and more. It is part of our strategy to really think about the commercial element. However, the purpose should always be exactly what you just said—that reach into the population.
Q30 Beth Winter: Ro’n i’n mynd i ofyn cwestiwn yn debyg i un Stephen. Does dim ystadegau gyda chi ynglŷn â’r niferoedd o bobl sydd wedi trosglwyddo o wylio sbort ar S4C i wylio pethau eraill ar y teledu?
(Translation) I was going to ask a similar question to Stephen’s. Have you got figures for how many people have watched the sport and then turned over to S4C and converted to viewers?
Siân Doyle: Dim eto.
(Translation) Not yet.
Q31 Beth Winter: Ond chi moyn gwneud e?
Siân Doyle: Mae adnabod ein cynulleidfa a deall ein data ni yn rhan o’r strategaeth dros y pedair blynedd nesaf. Mae’n rhaid i ni hefyd feddwl ynglŷn â sut rydyn ni’n personoleiddio beth mae’r gwylwyr yn ei weld. Un o fanteision y chwaraewyr sydd gyda ni ydy fel rydyn ni’n gallu personoleiddio beth maen nhw’n gallu gweld. Fyddwch chi’n gweld ar Netflix, os ydych chi wedi gwylio drama, fe wnawn nhw roi drama debyg arall i chi. Dyna’r math o beth fyddwn ni’n ei ddatblygu dros y blynyddoedd nesaf, ond rydyn ni reit ar ddechrau’r siwrne i fod yn deg ar hyn o bryd.
(Translation) Knowing our audience and understanding our data is part of our strategy over the next four years. We also have to think how we personalise what the viewers see. One of the advantages of the different players we have is that we can personalise the content they see. You see it on Netflix or wherever; if you have watched a drama, they suggest a similar drama. That is something that we will be developing over the next few years, but we are admittedly at the start of that journey at the moment.
Q32 Beth Winter: Ydy prinder sgiliau yn effeithio ar eich gallu i wneud hynny?
(Translation) Is a shortage of skills an issue there?
Siân Doyle: Dim ar hyn o bryd. Dwi’n credu mai’n priorities ni ydy ein rhoi ni ar Freeview Play a Samsung a wedyn ein bod ni’n edrych ar ein data a sut rydyn ni’n gallu personoleiddio.
(Translation) Not at the moment. I think our current priority is to be on Freeview Play and then Samsung, and then we will look at data and personalisation.
Q33 Beth Winter: Gan edrych nawr ar breifateiddio Channel 4, beth ydy’ch barn ar hyn ac oes unrhyw bryderon gyda chi ynglŷn â hyn a’r effaith mae’n mynd i gael ar S4C?
(Translation) What are your views on the privatisation of Channel 4? Do you have any concerns about the impact it might have on S4C?
Rhodri Williams: Wel, yn amlwg mae’n fater i chi fel Aelodau Seneddol i benderfynu ar beth fydd y model ar gyfer Channel 4 yn y dyfodol. I fi, ar un lefel, nid y berchnogaeth o angenrheidrwydd yw’r cwestiwn mwyaf allweddol. Y cwestiwn mwyaf allweddol yw beth yw’r remit sydd yn mynd gydag e.
Galla i roi enghreifftiau clir i chi o le fyddai hynny yn cael effaith negyddol ar Gymru. Yn y lle cyntaf, mae Channel 4 yr hyn sy’n cael ei alw’n gyhoeddwr-ddarlledwr. Dyw e ddim yn cynhyrchu cynnwys ei hunan. Mae’r gwaith yn cael ei wneud gan gwmnïau annibynnol ar hyd y Deyrnas Unedig, gyda nifer ohonyn nhw yn yr Alban, yng Ngogledd Iwerddon, yng Nghymru. Mae un o gwmnïau llwyddiannus Channel 4, sy’n gwmni sy’n gweithio i ni hefyd, yng Nghricieth yng Ngwynedd ac yn gyfrifol am gyfres o’r enw “The Great House Giveaway”, rhaglen lwyddiannus iawn ar Channel 4 ond un ddechreuodd ar S4C fel “Tŷ Am Ddim”.
Mae yna gwotâu mewn lle sy’n golygu bod yn rhaid i Channel 4 brynu gan gwmnïau annibynnol. Os ydych chi’n newid y remit ac yn dweud nad oes ots o le rydych chi’n cael y cynnwys, allen nhw jyst sefydlu un swyddfa a chynhyrchu’r stwff i gyd eu hunain. Mae Ofcom yn gyfrifol am gweithredu cwotâu ar gyfer hyn a hyn o raglenni y tu allan i Lundain. Mae remit Channel 4 yn wahanol. Mae gennych chi fodel o ddarlledu gwasanaeth cyhoeddus masnachol da yn ITV, ond yr hyn sydd yn wahanol am Channel 4 yw’r remit. Mae’n rhaid iddyn nhw wneud pethau’n wahanol a pheidio jyst ychwanegu at beth mae pawb arall yn ei wneud. Enghraifft glir iawn o hynny—dwi’n cofio’n iawn, ac ro’n i’n digwydd bod yn gweithio yn Llundain ar y pryd, yn ystod y gemau Olympaidd—oedd pryd ddaeth y gemau Paralympaidd i lefel newydd o exposure ar deledu. Channel 4 oedd yn gyfrifol am hwnna.
Beth bynnag sydd yn digwydd i’r berchnogaeth, a’r model o bwy sydd biau fe, os yw’r remit yn cael ei ddiogelu, yna fyddwn ni’n iawn. Ond heb y cwotâu hynny ar gyfer cynhyrchu tu fas i Lundain ac yng Nghymru, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon yn benodol, fyddai hynny’n golygu colled o £17 miliwn i’r economi Gymreig. Ond yn fwy pwysig efallai fyddai’r cyfle yna i ni i weithio gyda Channel 4. Roedd Siân yn sôn am “Y Golau” ynghynt. Mae “Tŷ Am Ddim”, neu “The Great House Giveaway”, yn enghraifft arall. Mae yna raglen gerddorol yn seiliedig ar y nofel fwyaf enwog yn yr iaith Gymraeg, “Un Nos Ola Leuad”, yn mynd i gael ei chynhyrchu yn y dyfodol agos, ar y cyd, eto, rhyngom ni a Channel 4. Byddai'r rheiny yn anodd iawn pe bai’r remit yn newid i fod yn, “Gwnewch unrhyw beth sy’n gwneud elw.”
(Translation) It is obviously an issue for you, as Members of Parliament, to decide the model for Channel 4 and what that will look like in the future. For me, on one level, the ownership is not necessarily the key issue. The key question is what the remit that goes with that will be.
I’ll give you some clear examples of how that would have a negative impact on Wales. First, Channel 4 is what is being called a publisher-broadcaster. It doesn’t produce its own content; the work is done by independent companies throughout the UK, a number of which are in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. In fact, one of Channel 4’s most successful companies, which works for us as well, is based in Cricieth in Gwynedd. It is responsible for “The Great House Giveaway”, a hugely popular programme on Channel 4 that started on S4C as “Tŷ Am Ddim”, or “Free House”.
There are quotas in place that mean that Channel 4 has to buy from independent companies. If you change the remit and say that it does not matter where you get the content, it could then establish one office and produce it all itself. There are quotas, which Ofcom are responsible for implementing, for such-and-such programmes outside of London, for example. Channel 4 is one model of public service broadcasting. There is a commercial model with ITV, but Channel 4 has a different remit; it has to do it differently and cannot just add to what others are doing. There was a very clear example of that—which I remember well, when I was working in London during the Olympic games—is when the Paralympic games reached a new level of exposure on TV. It was Channel 4 that was responsible for the exposure.
Whatever happens around the model of ownership, if the remit is protected, then we will be fine. If we do not have those quotas in place for producing outside of London—producing in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland—that would mean a loss of £17 million in the Welsh economy. But more important would be the loss of opportunity for us to work with Channel 4. Siân mentioned the drama “Y Golau”. “Tŷ Am Ddim”, or “The Great House Giveaway”, is another example. A musical programme based on the most famous Welsh language novel, “Un Nos Ola Leuad”, will be produced jointly by S4C and Channel 4 in the near future. It would be very difficult to get those commissions if the remit was, “Just do something that makes a profit.”
Siân Doyle: Ar “Un Nos Ola Leuad”, mae hwnna’n mynd i fynd mas ar Channel 4 yn Gymraeg hefyd, a fyddai hwnna efallai ddim yn rhywbeth fyddai’n digwydd o dan remit masnachol. Rydyn ni’n edrych ymlaen at gael “Un Nos Ola Leuad” yn mynd allan yn Gymraeg ar Channel 4 ac ar S4C. Mae hwnna’n first i ni. Mae’r ffaith ein bod ni’n gallu partneru lot gyda Channel 4 a helpu ein partneriaid cynhyrchu ni yn golygu ein bod ni’n gallu gwneud mwy a chynnig safon well i gynulleidfaoedd Cymru—a hynny achos ein bod ni’n gallu gweithio mewn partneriaeth. Fydden i ddim yn licio colli hwnna.
(Translation) On “Un Nos Ola Leuad”, it will be going out on Channel 4 in Welsh as well. That would possibly not happen under a commercial remit. We are looking forward to having “Un Nos Ola Leuad” going out in Welsh on Channel 4 and S4C. It will be a first for us. The fact that we have a partnership with Channel 4 and help our production partners means that we can do more and provide better quality for Welsh audiences—that is because we are able to work in partnership. I would not want to lose that working partnership.
Q34 Beth Winter: Jyst i bigo lan ar y pwynt diwethaf wnaethoch chi, Rhodri, ydych chi’n becso y bydd y sianel a’r cynnwys yn cael eu gyrru gan y ffaith eu bod nhw moyn gwneud elw? Dyna beth fydd y prif driver.
(Translation) Picking up on the point that Rhodri made, are you worried that the channel and the content would be driven by profit?
Rhodri Williams: Wel, dyna’r perygl oherwydd os ydych chi’n atebol yn bennaf i gyfranddalwyr, yr hyn mae buddsoddwyr eisiau yw return ar eu buddsoddiad nhw. Os ydyn nhw’n hapus i gadw’r remit, y cylch gorchwyl, fel mae e, fyddai hynny’n okay. Ond os gwedwch chi fod yn rhaid dal i weithredu fel mae Channel 4 yn gweithredu nawr, fydd y farchnad yn dweud, “Wel, ’dyn ddim eisiau fe te,” a fyddan nhw ddim moyn prynu fe. Bydden nhw moyn ei brynu e ar eu telerau nhw a chystadlu.
Elfen arall o bosib yw pe bai Channel 4 yn troi’n gyfan gwbl fasnachol, caiff hynny effaith negyddol ar ITV. Ro’n i’n sôn gynnau am y teulu yma o ddarlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus—BBC, Channel 4, ITV, Channel 5 a ni. Mae’r cyfanwaith, os liciwch chi, yn fwy na’r darnau unigol wedi ychwanegu at ei gilydd. Rydyn ni i gyd yn dod â rhywbeth gwahanol i’r ford. Mae ITV yn chwarae rôl bwysig iawn o ran ei apêl at ddemograffeg ychydig yn wahanol. Mae gennym ni i gyd ddigon o gystadleuaeth gan yr SVODs, ond os ydych chi’n creu darlledwr masnachol arall i gystadlu gydag ITV, dwi’n credu efallai bod yna berygl o gael effaith niweidiol ar yr hyn mae ITV yn ei wneud.
(Translation) That is the danger, of course. If you are accountable to shareholders, what investors want is a return on investment. If they are happy to maintain the remit as it is, that will be fine, but the danger is that if you say, “You still have to operate as Channel 4 operates now,” the market will say, “Oh, we don’t want it then,” and they won’t buy into it. They will want to buy into it on their own terms and to compete.
If Channel 4 becomes a totally commercial channel, that might have a negative impact on ITV. I was talking earlier about the family of public service broadcasters—the BBC, Channel 4, ITV, Channel 5 and us. That composition is greater than the sum of its parts. We all bring something different to the table, as it were. ITV plays a very important role, in terms of its appeal to a slightly different demographic. We all have plenty of competition already from the SVODs, but if you create another commercial broadcaster to compete with ITV, I think there is a danger that it could have a detrimental impact on what ITV is doing.
Q35 Beth Winter: Beth, yn eich barn chi, yw manteision preifateiddio? Oes unrhyw fanteision? Pam ydyn nhw moyn ei wneud e?
(Translation) What, in your view, are the advantages of privatisation, if any? Are there any advantages? Why do they want to do it?
Rhodri Williams: Chi’n gofyn i’r person anghywir! Yn yr ystyr, dwi ddim yn gwybod beth fyddai’r fantais a dwi ddim chwaith yn deall sut byddai modd preifateiddio gan gadw’r remit fel y mae e. I fi, dyna beth mae Channel 4 wedi’i gyflwyno i’r byd darlledu gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yn y Deyrnas Unedig—y remit specific i fynd ar ôl pethau dyw darlledwyr eraill efallai ddim yn eu gwneud. Dwi’n credu ei fod e fyny i’r sawl sydd am ei breifateiddio fe i wneud yr achos dros sut allwch chi ei breifateiddio fe ond cadw’r holl elfennau gwerthfawr yna mae Channel 4 yn gyfrifol amdanyn nhw.
(Translation) You are asking the wrong person about the decision to privatise it. I don’t know what the advantages would be, and I still don’t really understand how we could privatise it and keep the remit as it stands. For me, that is the crux of it. Over the years, Channel 4 has brought to public service broadcasting in the United Kingdom the specific remit of going after things that other broadcasters don’t go after. It will be up to whoever decides to privatise Channel 4 to make the case for how you privatise it and maintain the valuable impressions and the impact that it is responsible for.
Q36 Beth Winter: Ydych chi’n pryderu, felly, am sicrhau dyfodol hirdymor i gwmnïau annibynnol sydd yno ar hyn o bryd?
(Translation) Are you therefore worried about securing a long-term future for the independent production companies that currently exist?
Rhodri Williams: Yn bendant. Oherwydd rhan ganolog o’r remit yw bod yn rhaid i Channel 4 brynu rhaglenni gan gwmnïau annibynnol. Os nad oes raid iddyn nhw, gallai e newid i fodel gwahanol. Mae hynny’n digwydd i raddau mewn llefydd eraill. Mae gan rai o’r cwmnïau mawr yma eu stiwdios eu hunain a maen nhw’n cynhyrchu yn fewnol. Byddai colli’r sector gynhyrchu annibynnol—
Sori, dwi’n mynd yn ôl i 1982 eto—doedd dim sector gynhyrchu annibynnol yn bodoli yn y Deyrnas Unedig cyn 1982. Channel 4 ddaeth â fe i fod yn Lloegr a’r Alban yn bennaf yn y lle cyntaf, a S4C ddaeth â fe i fod yng Nghymru. O ran cadw’r cwmnïau hynny, mae yna fudd economaidd iddyn nhw—maen nhw’n wasgaredig. Mae’r ffaith bod rhywun yn gallu cynhyrchu un o gyfresi mwyaf llwyddiannus Channel 4 yng Nghricieth yn fabulous. Mae hwnna’n werthfawr iawn. Ond hefyd, maen nhw’n dod â chreadigrwydd. Mae gyda chi gystadleuaeth greadigol am syniadau ac mae eisiau gwarchod hynny.
(Translation) Yes, because an integral part of the Channel 4 remit is that it has to buy programmes from independent companies. If that requirement is not maintained, it could change to a different model. That is happening to an extent in other places. Some of these big companies set up their own studios and produce internally. Losing the independent production sector—
Again, I go back to 1982—there wasn’t an independent production sector in the UK before 1982. Channel 4 brought in the independent sector in England and Scotland in the first instance, and S4C introduced it in Wales. First of all, there is an economic benefit to maintaining those independent companies, because they are distributed throughout the UK. You can produce one of the most successful programmes on Channel 4 from Cricieth. That is fabulous, isn’t it? That is very valuable. The independent sector also brings creativity. There is always creative competition for ideas, and we need to protect that.
Beth Winter: Dwi’n cytuno. Diolch yn fawr.
(Translation) I agree. Thank you very much.
Q37 Ben Lake: Diolch i chi am yr atebion diwethaf yna. Dwi’n credu eich bod chi wedi canolbwyntio ar ambell i bryder mawr sy’n wynebu’r sector ac, yn wir, darlledu yng Nghymru. Tybed os galla i’ch holi chi i grynhoi’r pryderon hynny. Ond efallai yn bwysicach na hynny, beth fyddech chi am weld y Llywodraeth yn ei wneud er mwyn trio mynd i’r afael â rhai o’r pryderon hynny a hefyd cynnig rhywfaint o dawelwch meddwl?
(Translation) Thank you very much for your responses. You have crystalised some of the concerns of the sector and, indeed, broadcasting in Wales. May I ask you to summarise some of those concerns? More importantly, what would you like to see the Government do to try to tackle those concerns, and to provide peace of mind?
Rhodri Williams: Ydych chi’n siarad yn benodol ynghylch Channel 4 neu ar draws y—?
(Translation) Are you talking specifically about Channel 4 or across the—?
Ben Lake: Ie, ar draws y piece, fel petai.
(Translation) Yes, across the piece, as it were.
Rhodri Williams: I fynd yn ôl at fesur y Cyfryngau felly, mae angen y ddeddfwriaeth hynny yn fawr iawn. Hynny yw, roedd Deddf Cyfathrebiadau 2003 yn ddarn mawr o ddeddfwriaeth ynglŷn â darlledu ac fe wnaeth hwnna ddechrau ar y broses o droi o’r byd analog i fyd digidol a chreu rheoleiddiwr oedd yn rheoleiddio nid yn unig yr ochr ddarlledu ond yr ochr gyfathrebiadau yr un pryd. Fel mae’r Pwyllgor yn ymwybodol, fues i’n ddigon ffodus i weithio i Ofcom am gyfnod hir iawn. Roedd hwnna’n bwysig, ond mae’r ddeddfwriaeth angen yr un fath o adnewyddiad â’r hyn ddigwyddodd bryd hynny. Cnewyllyn hwnna yw’r amlygrwydd.
Roedd yr hyn oedd yn digwydd o’r blaen yn berthnasol ac yn effeithiol os oedd pobl yn eistedd yn eu lolfa neu yn eu cegin neu yn eu hystafell wely yn edrych ar set deledu draddodiadol lle'r oedd y darlledwr yn penderfynu, “Am 9 o’r gloch, rydych chi’n mynd i weld hwn”. Ond mae’r model wedi newid yn llwyr. Fel roedd Siân yn cyfeirio ato ynghynt, mae gan bobl ifanc—yn enwedig pobl ifanc, ond nid dim ond pobl ifanc—amrywiaeth o ddyfeisiau nawr. Mae’r sgrin deledu yn dal yno, ond efallai bod hwnna nawr yn ddyfais glyfar hefyd. Dydych chi ddim yn aros i bobl ddweud wrthych chi pryd mae rhywbeth ymlaen; chi sydd yn dweud, “Reit, heno, liciwn i weld adloniant ysgafn,” ac rydych chi’n mynd i chwilio am y cynnwys.
Mae angen fframwaith deddfwriaethol a diwygiadau i bwerau Ofcom i ganiatáu iddyn nhw i fod yn berthnasol yn yr oes ddigidol yna. Wrth gwrs, mae yna lot sydd wedi digwydd, ond lle rydyn ni yn y cwestiwn, fel mae Siân wedi sôn, mae yna lot ar ôl i’w wneud i sicrhau ein bod ni yn wirioneddol ddigidol ac yn gyfoes yn y ffordd rydyn ni’n dosbarthu ein cynnwys. Ond mae’n rhaid i’r fframwaith cyfreithiol, deddfwriaethol a rheoleiddiol o gwmpas hwnna newid.
Y perygl mwyaf i mi yw petai’r Bil cyfryngau ddim yn digwydd neu’n cael ei ohirio ymhellach. Mae angen y ddeddfwriaeth, mae angen sicrhau bod y teulu o ddarlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yn cael yr amlygrwydd hwnnw a bod y fframwaith deddfwriaethol yn cael ei foderneiddio.
(Translation) To go back to the media Bill, we need that legislation urgently. The last large piece of legislation dealing with broadcasting was the Communications Act 2003, which initiated the process of moving from analogue to digital and, of course, created a regulator that regulated not just broadcasting but communications at the same time. As the Committee is aware, I was fortunate enough to work for Ofcom for a long period of time. That was important, but the legislation needs the same type of refreshing that we saw back then. At the core of that is prominence.
What happened previously was relevant and effective if people were sat in their lounges, their kitchens or their bedrooms watching one traditional TV screen, and the broadcaster would decide, “At 9 o’clock, you will be watching this.” But the model has been changed—it has been transformed—and, as Siân mentioned earlier, young people in particular, but not just young people, have a variety of devices. The TV screen is still there, but perhaps it is just another smart device in the house. And you do not wait to be told when things are being broadcast; you think to yourself, “Tonight, I would like to watch a little bit of light entertainment,” and you look for that content.
We now need a legislative framework and, of course, reform to the powers of Ofcom to allow them to be relevant in the digital world. Of course, a lot has happened but, as Siân has already mentioned, there is still a lot to be done to ensure that we become truly digital and truly contemporary and modern in how we distribute our content. But I think that the legal, legislative framework and the regulatory framework around that must change.
The greatest danger is that we do not have a media Bill or that it does not pass through Parliament. That is the biggest concern for me. We need the legislation to ensure that the family of public service broadcasters gets that prominence and to ensure that the legislative framework is modernised.
Q38 Ben Lake: A fyddech chi’n dweud hefyd y byddai sefyllfa S4C rhywfaint yn fwy bregus pe na bai’r ddeddf yn dod gerbron y Senedd yn weddol fuan, o gymharu â darlledwyr cyhoeddus eraill? Mae’n effaith eitha unigryw.
(Translation) Would you also say that S4C, as opposed to other PSBs, would be more vulnerable if the Bill was not passed by Parliament? That is, it is in a unique position.
Rhodri Williams: Yn bendant. Ni yw’r lleiaf yn y teulu o ddarlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, a ni yw’r unig un sy’n darlledu mewn iaith leiafrifol. Mae’r drafft sydd ar gael o rai o’r cymalau o’r Bil yn sôn nid yn unig amdanon ni ond am ddarlledu mewn ieithoedd brodorol yn yr Alban ac yng Ngogledd Iwerddon hefyd—am y tro cyntaf erioed. Er nad yw e mor berthnasol i ni, rydyn ni’n croesawu’n fawr iawn bod hynny’n rhan o’r meddwl deddfwriaethol i feddwl nad dim ond darlledu yn Saesneg rydyn ni’n siarad amdano—er taw dyna’r brif iaith drwy’r gwledydd i gyd—ond bod yna bwysigrwydd i ddarlledu mewn ieithoedd eraill fel rydyn ni’n ei wneud.
(Translation) Yes, definitely. We are the smallest member of the family of public service broadcasters, and we are the only one that broadcasts in a minority language. The draft clauses of the Bill that are available talk not only about us but about broadcasting in other native languages in Scotland and Northern Ireland. That is for the first time ever. Although that is not as relevant to us, we welcome the fact that that is now part of the legislative mindset and that we are talking about not just broadcasting in English—because that is the main language—but the importance of broadcasting in other languages, as we do.
Q39 Ben Lake: Ga i’ch holi chi yn gyflym iawn o ran y panel ar ddarlledu y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi’i greu? Beth wnewch chi o’r panel a’i gylch gorchwyl?
(Translation) May I ask you swiftly about the expert panel that the Welsh Government have created? What do you make of that expert panel and their remit?
Rhodri Williams: Efallai ei bod hi’n rhy gynnar i ddweud beth ydyn ni’n ei wneud o’r panel, gan nad ydyn ni wedi siarad â nhw eto. Mae’n siŵr y byddan nhw am ddod aton ni i’n holi ni. Dwi’n credu y byddwn i’n dweud hyn. Mae atebolrwydd darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, yn enwedig rhai sy’n cael eu hariannu gan y pwrs cyhoeddus fel ni, yn hollbwysig. Mae hynny’n digwydd yn unol â deddfwriaeth y lle yma. Oni bai ei fod yn newid, fe fyddwn ni’n parhau i weithredu yn unol â’r fframwaith deddfwriaethol sy’n bodoli ar hyn o bryd.
Ein dyletswydd bennaf ni yw darparu cynnwys yn yr iaith Gymraeg sydd yn hwyluso defnydd o’r iaith Gymraeg. Mewn ffordd, fe allwn ni fod yn agnostig ynglŷn â’r ffordd y mae’r atebolrwydd yn gweithio a chanolbwyntio ar ein prif waith ni. Pan fyddwn ni’n siarad gyda’r panel, dyna fydda i yn ei ddweud wrthyn nhw.
Wrth gwrs, mae’r byd yn newid. Mae gan Lywodraeth Cymru fwy o ddylanwad yn y maes hwn nawr nag oedd. Pan ges i fy nghyfweld ar gyfer y swydd yma, roedd aelod o staff Llywodraeth Cymru yn bresennol ar y panel cyfweld. Maen nhw hefyd yn eistedd ar banel cyfweld aelodau bwrdd S4C ac aelod bwrdd y BBC yng Nghymru, a nhw sy’n penodi aelod bwrdd Ofcom yng Nghymru. Ar ben hynny, mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn gwario mwy o arian erbyn hyn ar y diwydiannau creadigol, ac yn rhoi arian i mewn i’r pot—peth ohono fe gyda’r BBC, peth gyda ni, peth mewn cynlluniau hyfforddi. Mae hynny i gyd i’w groesawu. Rydyn ni’n siarad yn gyson gyda Llywodraeth Cymru ynglŷn â’r pethau hynny.
Ond os ydych chi’n sôn am newid y fframwaith deddfwriaethol, mae’n ofynnol wedyn, ar y panel efallai, i esbonio sut fyddai hynny’n gweithio. Sut y byddai datganoli darlledu, fel y mae’n cael ei alw, yn gweithio yng nghyd-destun y BBC, er enghraifft? Sut fyddai hynny’n gweithio mewn perthynas â Channel 4? Rydyn ni yn glir yn rhan o’r teulu yna. Dwi’n credu bod perygl fod pobl yn meddwl mai’r ateb fan hyn yw symud S4C ond dim byd arall. Dwi’n credu y gallai hynny fod yn niweidiol i ni.
Cwestiwn arall fyddai rheoleiddio. Mae cynnwys, pwy bynnag sy’n ei greu, yn cael ei reoleiddio’n allanol gan Ofcom, ac mae gan Ofcom yr adnoddau a’r expertise i allu gwneud hynny. Dydw i ddim yn siŵr bod atgynhyrchu hynny yng Nghymru yn unig yn syniad sydd yn debygol o fod yn llwyddiannus. Dwi’n credu y gallai fod yn un sy’n gostus iawn.
Dwi’n sicr yn croesawu rhagor o gydweithio gyda Llywodraeth Cymru ar brosiectau unigol sydd yn dwyn budd i’r diwydiannau creadigol yng Nghymru. Ond os nad ydyn nhw’n dwyn budd i’r sector creadigol yng Nghymru, dwi ychydig yn fwy amheus. Dwi’n edrych ymlaen at gynnal cyfarfodydd gyda’r panel ac i esbonio iddyn nhw beth yw’r pethau pwysig o’n safbwynt ni. Ond mae’r pethau pwysig hynny i gyd yn ymwneud â chreu cynnwys a dosbarthu cynnwys yn effeithiol i’r gynulleidfa, yn hytrach na phoeni am beth yw’r gyfundrefn o atebolrwydd.
(Translation) Well, it might be a bit early to say what we think of the panel, because we have not spoken with them yet. I am sure that they will approach us very soon. But I would say this. For public service broadcasters, and especially those like us who are funded by the public purse, accountability is essential. That takes place in accordance with the legislation set by this place. Unless that changes, we will continue to operate in accordance with the legislative framework that exists at the moment.
Our chief duty is to provide content through the medium of Welsh that facilitates use of the Welsh language. In a way, we can be slightly agnostic about how that accountability works, because we can focus on our main work of providing content. When we do speak with the panel, that is what I will tell them.
Of course, the world is changing. The Welsh Government might have greater influence in the area than they previously had. When I was interviewed for this job, there was a member of staff from the Welsh Government on the interview panel. They also sit on the interview panel for members of the S4C board and the BBC board in Wales, and they also appoint the Ofcom board member for Wales. The Welsh Government also spend more money nowadays on the creative industries, and they give and invest money into the pot—some of it with the BBC, some with us, and some on training plans. This greater involvement is to be welcomed, and we talk regularly with the Welsh Government about those issues.
However, if you are talking about changing the legislative framework, I believe there would have to be a requirement, on the panel perhaps, to explain how that would actually work. For example, how would the devolution of broadcasting, as it is referred to, work in the context of the BBC? How would it work in relation to Channel 4? We are clearly part of that family, and I believe that there is a danger that people might think that the answer here is just to move S4C but nothing else. I think that could be detrimental to us.
Another question would be about regulation. Whoever creates it, content is regulated externally by Ofcom, and Ofcom has the resources and expertise to regulate. I am not sure that the idea of replicating that just in Wales is likely to be successful, and I think it might be a very expensive process.
I certainly welcome greater collaboration and co-operation with the Welsh Government on individual projects that benefit the creative industries in Wales, but if they do not give benefit to the creative sector in Wales, I am a bit more suspicious. I am looking forward to having meetings with the expert panel and to explaining to them the key issues for us, but all those key issues are around creating content and distributing it effectively to the audience, rather than about being worried about the system of accountability above us.
Q40 Ruth Jones: You have both talked a lot about skills and the need to recruit and retain people. I understand that you have introduced three bursaries this year, seeking to encourage BME students to come in. Are you happy that you have the right balance and the right encouragement in place?
Siân Doyle: We are doing quite a lot, including with the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, with Jason Mohammad from sports, and with some news. There is more that we can do around creating a framework that talks about, to return to the earlier point, bringing people into the industry at a lower level and growing them. That is a piece of work that we will do. It is very core to our skillset, but I must admit that in my six months that is something I have not quite got to yet. But we will do. We are doing a lot anyway. I will be with It’s My Shout tomorrow night for another programme. We will do a lot, but it is important for us not only to create a framework, but to keep the Welsh language as part of that framework, because that will allow people to train and work through the medium of Welsh and to retain some of the skills. It is something that we will look at in more detail as we go through.
Ruth Jones: Rhodri, do you want to add anything to that?
Rhodri Williams: No.
Q41 Geraint Davies: On that specific point, I know that you are tightly focused on the Welsh language, and Ruth mentioned diversity. Would that include disability?
Siân Doyle: For sure. One of our biggest priorities is that we reflect Wales in its entirety today, and there is a big requirement on us to do so. Yes, for sure.
Q42 Chair: Can I come back to Rhodri’s remarks in response to Beth Winter? You were talking about the strength of the independent production sector in Wales and the ecosystem of companies that has grown up in Wales since 1982 and has been very successful. You described the prospect of the privatisation of Channel 4 as a particular threat to the production sector. What about when it comes to Amazon rolling into town wanting to provide Welsh language broadcasting? We were talking about sports rights earlier. Is that a threat or an opportunity for Welsh producers?
Rhodri Williams: I think it is both. When Amazon and the like come to Wales to locate there, they have series budgets that exceed our annual budget. Obviously, it is a good thing for them to come to Wales to spend their money and employ people. They are important employers, although it must be said that that comes with its challenges.
Someone who is working as a sound recordist could earn x working for the BBC, ITV, ourselves or Channel 4, or they could earn three times x working for Netflix. It has an impact on the availability of talent, not for all kinds of productions, but certainly for high-end drama, for instance. It is not as problematic if the production companies are based in Wales, as some of them are. For instance, Bad Wolf is an international creative business based in Cardiff, employing people in Wales and bringing in the stars from wherever to take part in those programmes.
Overall, that aspect of it is more of a benefit than a threat. It is up to us as public service broadcasters and the industry to find solutions. I do not think we can say that we want Wales to thrive economically and then complain that they are taking all the best technicians to work on their shows. We have to find a way around that, and that is up to us.
The question of when they then start to produce material specifically for the Welsh audience is more difficult. On the one hand, I can fully understand somebody saying, “Well, Amazon are broadcasting the autumn internationals and they are doing it in Welsh.” I watched some of their coverage in Welsh last autumn and clearly the production values are as good as if it had been produced by one of our producers or by the BBC.
I want to say that the fact that they are doing that in Welsh is to be welcomed. If there are more people who are willing to provide content in Welsh, I do not think we can with any degree of honesty say that is a bad thing. The difference is if it is behind a paywall. If that content then goes behind a paywall, you are making it less accessible. For our key purpose of trying to promote the use of the language, if you put it behind a paywall, I do not think that will help the language.
Q43 Chair: More than that, this is them dipping their toes into Welsh language sports coverage. If they were to progress that strategy and start cherry-picking other elements of Welsh language content that they want to deliver themselves, surely that is a big threat to your organisation.
Rhodri Williams: It comes back to the paywall question. If there are more people out there producing content in Welsh, you cannot really say that that would be a bad thing, unless of course the justification for spending public money on what we do is somehow affected by that, but we are a long way away from that. I think the prize here—maybe Siân wants to come in on this—is to work with these people. If we can get a share of Amazon’s money to make content in Wales, in Welsh and in English, that is something worth doing, but we have to be able to work with them.
Siân Doyle: I was just going to concur. A partnership with somebody like Netflix or Amazon, whereby we could share some of their resources, which would then up the quality of what we can produce for the Welsh audience—to Rhodri’s point, that is the prize. Netflix might have some of their best stuntmen in Wales doing a film in November; if we can benefit from that through a partnership, to me that is the way. If we work together, it will increase the quality of what we can produce in Wales for the Welsh audience, working with them and their huge resources—their tariffs per hour are quite mind-blowing compared with ours.
Chair: Understood.
Q44 Ben Lake: On that point, I am intrigued to understand a bit more of the motives that perhaps Amazon or Netflix might have in terms of producing more Welsh language content in future. On the sports fixtures, I know that there is quite a loyal following, so that side makes sense. When it comes to drama content and the Welsh language, to put it bluntly, what is in it for the Amazons and Netflixes of this world?
Siân Doyle: There have been no discussions on that at all. We have talked with people like Channel 4 about creating co-productions, and with Paramount+ in terms of co-productions. It would usually be a back-to-back discussion, if we were doing that, where we would create the Welsh and, as a partnership, it would be co-produced in English.
Q45 Ben Lake: But there would not necessarily be a great benefit. If we were sat here as the board of Amazon or Netflix, there is not a great deal of incentive, monetary or otherwise, in doing this, is there?
Rhodri Williams: Except that Wales is earning a reputation as a centre of excellence for the creative industries. I mention Bad Wolf again, and I do not know how many people are familiar with “Squid Game”. If we had talked years ago about the prevalence of content that the majority of potential viewers around the world can access only via subtitles, people would have laughed and said, “Nobody’s going to watch stuff with subtitles.”
The other element that is perhaps closer to home in terms of the kind of content we are talking about is drama. Scandi noir drama, which is seen as being close to some of what we have been commissioning, is available exclusively with subtitles, and people are far more willing to access that. I could imagine a time when a worldwide player, whichever one of them it is, said, “We’re going to do this as a partnership with S4C and, instead of doing it back-to-back, we will broadcast it in Welsh as well but with subtitles.” That is not beyond the realms of possibility.
Q46 Ben Lake: Do you think it might be possible that in future we will have series like “Y Gwyll”, “Un Bore Mercher” and so on just being broadcast in Welsh, rather than being filmed in English and in Welsh?
Siân Doyle: That is happening—we are seeing that now. The first series of “Yr Amgueddfa” is out and the second series will be coming up at Christmas; that is Welsh-only and has been sold to Japan and so on. We are starting to see that and we have such a legacy in Wales for that, so I think it could happen.
Chair: Thank you very much. That has brought us to the end of this morning’s session, so diolch yn fawr to my fellow Committee members, and particularly to Siân Doyle and Rhodri Williams for giving up your time to be with us. My thanks as well go to the broadcasting and translation teams, who have facilitated a fully bilingual session. It has been very useful and we have covered a lot of ground. Thank you very much and we will see you again soon.